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5/10/13 9:19 PM
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chadk
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Marquez's muscles were only part of it. It was the sudden increase in power I found shocking. He goes 36 rounds previously with Manny without being able to discourage him much, then in the 4th fight he lands two clean right hands. One drops Pac hard in the 2nd and the other takes him out clean. Tests mean nothing when talking about an acknowledged "wizard" who never had an athlete fail a test over the years. It wasn't just HBO and Pacquiao fans questioning him either. Lots of knowledgeable folks have "doubts". Given all the high profile fighters (boxing & mma) getting caught recently, you can hardly blame those of us who are suspicious. Phone Post
5/10/13 9:20 PM
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chadk
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Wasa-B -
chadk -  As a wise man once pointed out to me, you think a man who was willing to drink his own piss in an effort to gain an advantage WOULDN'T be willing to roid in an effort to best his biggest rival??? Phone Post

How did Machida get thrown in this boxing debate? ;p
Touche sir. Well played. Phone Post
5/10/13 9:25 PM
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chadk
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A question for everyone: Aside from each other, who's the one fighter you most wanted Pacquiao or Mayweather to fight? Now or in the past? Only including guys who were active in their divisions when they were there. Phone Post
5/10/13 9:25 PM
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Wasa-B
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chadk - 
Wasa-B -
chadk -  As a wise man once pointed out to me, you think a man who was willing to drink his own piss in an effort to gain an advantage WOULDN'T be willing to roid in an effort to best his biggest rival??? Phone Post

How did Machida get thrown in this boxing debate? ;p
Touche sir. Well played. Phone Post


5/10/13 9:31 PM
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Barry_BondsMVP
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Mayweather/Leonard, Mayweather/Pep, Mayweather/Morales

Pacquiao/Salvador Sanchez, Pacquiao/Henry Armstrong, Pacquiao/Arguello

5/10/13 9:36 PM
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Wasa-B
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lockon - 
Wasa-B - 
lockon - Why did no one bring up the "second puberty" garbage when the third fight took place. I don't think I'm hallucinating here, but I'm pretty fucking sure Marquez had already gained a significant amount of muscle then. Being slightly bigger in the fourth fight a year later was hardly a big deal.

Being skeptical about JMM working with Heredia is fine, but to begin spewing that stuff out a year and two fights later is such a joke. Watching Lampley get choked up immediately after Marquez's win only to throw him under the bus during his crappy fight show a week or two later is truly disgusting.

Im certainly not accusing JMM of anything and am a fan of him myself. I was merely asking because I was curious to see what some of the more serious boxing fans think about it personally, just as they do about Pac not accepting the tests initially. Im not up to boxing as closely as MMA and thought this would be a good thread to ask about it.....and dam, cant believe its almost been a year since!

I didn't mean any disrespect to you personally, you seem pretty level-headed and fair about it all, considering you have questions and concerns about Pacquiao and his team as well.

Since their fight in December it's been a big trend to bring up Heredia & JMM's muscle gain, despite the fact that they've been working together since his third fight with Pacquiao. Still, in the last few months of 2011 when that fight took place there might have been a couple of articles and a tiny amount of posters who brought it up.

Of course, Marquez is still working with Memo a year later through his 2012 bout with Fedchenko (at least I'm pretty sure) and still not a word is said. Fast forward to the fourth fight and people attribute his "hulk-like" power to the Marquez's steroid use, giving little credit to the beautiful feint that set up the right hand and the third and Pacquiao practically leaping into the counter punch which knocked him cold.

Also, as Barry mentioned, Freddie and his camp had some vocal concerns about JMM which lead to Marquez's willingness to take whatever tests they had in mind, so long as Pacquiao did so himself. Sure enough, all that talk halted after that.

Anyway, I didn't mean to come off like a douche. You're one of the more knowledgeable posters on the board and seem cool in your posts. Pacquiao's fan community and HBO have just made a lot of disparaging, ignorant remarks over their poster boy's loss.

Word, respect due too.

I know that we often address people in general on here, i do too. Chadk's got a point though about the JMM accusation thing but all it is is speculation so, more he/she said even if the circumstances were quite different in the 4th fight, still circumstantial evidence at best, right?

Im def now a bit more suspicious of the Pac camp's unwillingness over testing but also found it a bit odd that Mayweather really only started the demands with Pac, no? And was 14 days out the latest the Pac camp would test? If so, wasnt it discussed amongst sports medicine people that that is still late enough to not play factor in training or in the fight itself?

I dunno, greyness on both sides imo.

Im sure with Pac being such a huge figure to the Filipino community and HBO and being as dominant as he was, of course there's gonna be some nuthugging comments. Filipino's are like Latinos in that they are passionate and not always the most objective when it comes to their own (which culture is?) but i know plenty of them who said after the 2nd and 3rd fights that it could have gone either way or that it was simply "close."

I got Filipino friend all over the JMM size thing after the 4th fight but others who knew how close the matchups were over the 3 fights too.

I actually felt good for JMM in a way because he's lived under Pac's shadow and under the other Mexican fighters' too right and then finally got his big revenge or mainstream breakthru with the KO. I also felt that Manny came back with his old self in that fight and looked good, killer instinct that looked a bit missing in his past few fights and JMM even commented that he felt he was in danger of being KOed so he had to step it up himself.

Here's a question for you technical boxing fans:

Was anything different technically in the 4th Pac/JMM fight than their other 3? Of course Pac had never been dropped by JMM before but what about the overall rhythm and clash aside from that?
5/10/13 9:38 PM
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xsrg95
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chadk -  Marquez's muscles were only part of it. It was the sudden increase in power I found shocking. He goes 36 rounds previously with Manny without being able to discourage him much, then in the 4th fight he lands two clean right hands. One drops Pac hard in the 2nd and the other takes him out clean. Tests mean nothing when talking about an acknowledged "wizard" who never had an athlete fail a test over the years. It wasn't just HBO and Pacquiao fans questioning him either. Lots of knowledgeable folks have "doubts". Given all the high profile fighters (boxing & mma) getting caught recently, you can hardly blame those of us who are suspicious. Phone Post

the way he landed that clean punch could have knocked out anyone with or without roids when you're talking about an elite boxer like Marquez, the way manny steped on marquez foot just showed the timing marquez built from the past fights

5/10/13 9:40 PM
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Wasa-B
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Hey guys, what about Chris John? Seeing that he beat JMM some time ago and has been ranked top 10 P4P over the years but suppose since he mostly fights in Asian against other Asians, simply isnt known well enough?

How about skill wise? Justified top 10 P4P?

Also on JMM, did him beating Barrera not give him more spotlight or was that a fight/result that only reasonated with hardcore fans? I remember seeing the fight and really enjoyed it, one of the fights that sticks out for me that as a great technical, competitive bout on both sides.
5/10/13 9:41 PM
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Wasa-B
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xsrg95 - 
chadk -  Marquez's muscles were only part of it. It was the sudden increase in power I found shocking. He goes 36 rounds previously with Manny without being able to discourage him much, then in the 4th fight he lands two clean right hands. One drops Pac hard in the 2nd and the other takes him out clean. Tests mean nothing when talking about an acknowledged "wizard" who never had an athlete fail a test over the years. It wasn't just HBO and Pacquiao fans questioning him either. Lots of knowledgeable folks have "doubts". Given all the high profile fighters (boxing & mma) getting caught recently, you can hardly blame those of us who are suspicious. Phone Post

the way he landed that clean punch could have knocked out anyone with or without roids when you're talking about an elite boxer like Marquez, the way manny steped on marquez foot just showed the timing marquez built from the past fights


To play devil's advocate: what about the first knockdown? It was a long,loopy overhand right, wasnt it? Not particularly fast either.

Was Pac just caught off guard with it?
5/10/13 9:46 PM
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Barry_BondsMVP
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Chris John is meh, he went life and death with Rocky Juarez.

5/10/13 9:55 PM
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chadk
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Barry_BondsMVP -

Mayweather/Leonard, Mayweather/Pep, Mayweather/Morales

Pacquiao/Salvador Sanchez, Pacquiao/Henry Armstrong, Pacquiao/Arguello

Fighters who were active during their time only. Phone Post
5/10/13 9:59 PM
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lockon
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xsrg95 - 
chadk -  Marquez's muscles were only part of it. It was the sudden increase in power I found shocking. He goes 36 rounds previously with Manny without being able to discourage him much, then in the 4th fight he lands two clean right hands. One drops Pac hard in the 2nd and the other takes him out clean. Tests mean nothing when talking about an acknowledged "wizard" who never had an athlete fail a test over the years. It wasn't just HBO and Pacquiao fans questioning him either. Lots of knowledgeable folks have "doubts". Given all the high profile fighters (boxing & mma) getting caught recently, you can hardly blame those of us who are suspicious. Phone Post

the way he landed that clean punch could have knocked out anyone with or without roids when you're talking about an elite boxer like Marquez, the way manny steped on marquez foot just showed the timing marquez built from the past fights


This. The way the final shot was set up would've knocked down most people.

Newsflash, Marquez can absolutely be a puncher when he wants to, the guy has power. Aside from his finish percentage, he's even hit Pacquiao with several highlighted shots throughout those 4 bouts that would have dropped lesser fighters. Maybe, instead of attributing all this power to steroids, you could be a bit more objective and question whether or not Pacquiao's ability to take a punch has deteriorated.

Again, Heredia was already working with Marquez for his 3rd fight with Pacquiao. Where was his power then? What about the Fedchenko bout?
5/10/13 10:05 PM
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lockon
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Wasa-B - Hey guys, what about Chris John? Seeing that he beat JMM some time ago and has been ranked top 10 P4P over the years but suppose since he mostly fights in Asian against other Asians, simply isnt known well enough?

How about skill wise? Justified top 10 P4P?

Also on JMM, did him beating Barrera not give him more spotlight or was that a fight/result that only reasonated with hardcore fans? I remember seeing the fight and really enjoyed it, one of the fights that sticks out for me that as a great technical, competitive bout on both sides.

You can find the Chris John fight on YouTube, most people feel JMM won that won, too. Very uneventful fight. John's not too respected in the boxing community because of his unwillingness to find big fights outside of his home country.

IIRC he also called out Marquez after his KO win over Pac but it's irrelevant because they are divisions apart.
5/10/13 11:04 PM
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OmgItsTheWams
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Atlas just said he has heard canelo vs cotto is in the works Phone Post
5/10/13 11:45 PM
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ANT_P1989
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OmgItsTheWams - Atlas just said he has heard canelo vs cotto is in the works Phone Post
I'd like to see Nelo vs Lara. Phone Post
5/11/13 5:54 AM
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DARTHHOGAN
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Ten random Questions for Roger, Jeff and Floyd Mayweather sr. 

5/11/13 11:00 AM
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UGCTT_Charles Bronsons Mustache
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ANT_P1989 - 
OmgItsTheWams - Atlas just said he has heard canelo vs cotto is in the works Phone Post
I'd like to see Nelo vs Lara. Phone Post

Canelo just fought a dangerous no name opponent, why would he fight another?

Anyways Cotto vs Canelo will be a lot more exciting.

5/11/13 11:00 AM
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UGCTT_Charles Bronsons Mustache
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Angulo vs Lara is next, that sucks.
I want Angulo to Ko his ass, prob not gonna happen.
5/11/13 2:18 PM
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chadk
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UGCTT_Charles Bronsons Mustache -
ANT_P1989 - 
OmgItsTheWams - Atlas just said he has heard canelo vs cotto is in the works Phone Post
I'd like to see Nelo vs Lara. Phone Post

Canelo just fought a dangerous no name opponent, why would he fight another?

Anyways Cotto vs Canelo will be a lot more exciting.

If you consider seeing a totally shot and ringworn Cotto getting brutalized "exciting" I guess it will be. Phone Post
5/11/13 3:24 PM
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Chomas
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Replay of the Mayweather fight tonight at 9pm EST on Showtime. Phone Post 3.0
5/11/13 8:01 PM
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chadk
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chadk -
UGCTT_Charles Bronsons Mustache -
ANT_P1989 - 
OmgItsTheWams - Atlas just said he has heard canelo vs cotto is in the works Phone Post
I'd like to see Nelo vs Lara. Phone Post

Canelo just fought a dangerous no name opponent, why would he fight another?

Anyways Cotto vs Canelo will be a lot more exciting.

If you consider seeing a totally shot and ringworn Cotto getting brutalized "exciting" I guess it will be. Phone Post
Sorry, I wrote that while working earlier. Came off snarkier than I intended. Let me rephrase: I think at this point in his career Cotto had nothing for Canelo and would get destroyed. For Miguel's sake, I hope this match never happens. Would be concerned about his long term health. Phone Post
5/11/13 8:05 PM
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UGCTT_Charles Bronsons Mustache
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chadk - 
chadk -
UGCTT_Charles Bronsons Mustache -
ANT_P1989 - 
OmgItsTheWams - Atlas just said he has heard canelo vs cotto is in the works Phone Post
I'd like to see Nelo vs Lara. Phone Post

Canelo just fought a dangerous no name opponent, why would he fight another?

Anyways Cotto vs Canelo will be a lot more exciting.

If you consider seeing a totally shot and ringworn Cotto getting brutalized "exciting" I guess it will be. Phone Post
Sorry, I wrote that while working earlier. Came off snarkier than I intended. Let me rephrase: I think at this point in his career Cotto had nothing for Canelo and would get destroyed. For Miguel's sake, I hope this match never happens. Would be concerned about his long term health. Phone Post

haha its cool mate.
I agree that Canelo would win, but I think Cotto would slug it out with him.
I just don't wanna see the Lara fight right now.
What about...
Canelo vs Kirkland????
5/11/13 10:15 PM
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jdindiana
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Rewatching the Mayweather fight. Wife doesn't get it Phone Post 3.0
5/12/13 1:12 AM
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Barry_BondsMVP
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Darchinyan Stops Gallo: Oscar Valdez Wins Big                                                                                                                                                        Article Link - http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&opt=printable&id=65431#ixzz2T3Ij0Sfq
This is a legal waiver. By copying and using the material from this article, you agree to give full credit to BoxingScene.com or provide a link to the original article.

Uni-Trade Stadium in Laredo, Texas - In a super bantamweight contest, former multi-division champion Vic Darchinyan (39-5-1, 28 KOs) made his Top Rank promotional debut and stopped Javier Gallo (18-7-1, 10 KOs in the fourth round of a super bantamweight clash. Gallo was dropped hard in the second. He got up but was quickly dropped again after two left hands. Darchinyan got caught hard as he was coming in, but then dropped Gallo for a third time. Darchinyan continued to land in the third and finished Gallo off with a hard knockdown at :26 of the fourth.

Featherweight prospect Oscar Valdez (5-0, 4KOs) stopped Rocco Espinoza (4-7-1) in the first round. Espinoza went down early from a left hook to the body. He was dropped again later from a right hand to the head, and finally dropped once again from a left hook, near the end of the round, to prompt an immediate stoppage by the referee at 2:58.

5/12/13 1:44 AM
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Barry_BondsMVP
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that would be dumb on Floyd if true, he fought Oscar and Cotto and 54', what Floyd should demand is Canelo not re-hydrating to LHW lol.


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