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1/30/13 7:44 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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Edited: 01/30/13 7:48 AM
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theseanster - 
Jons Forsberg - are these certs and the internship project all one needs to start applying for jobs on the field? at entry level how much can someone expect to make?


It is very progressive the first five years. I'd suggest taking low salary for your first job and only keep it for a year. Then start contracting. After about 3 gigs you'll be at 6 digits. Keep the 3 gigs down to 3-6 months. Phone Post



thanks Seanster. are these contracting jobs mostly on sourcing sites like Monster/Guru/Odesk?
1/30/13 10:58 AM
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theseanster
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LegendCM - Just wanted to thank you Sean for starting this, hopefully I will learn something.

I have done the first 8 videos, and I think I am getting the basics. What I am wondering is does he ever give you any projects to do. I think it would be very helpful in reenforcing the concepts he is teaching.

I have done my own little projects, but concept specific project would be best.

Maybe someone else who has created there on project could share what they did.

Thanks again.

At this level there doesn't seem to be a lot, but there will be a lot when you move on to the MVC tutorials.

I'd suggest going through some these and actually typing them in and running them...maybe even make changes yourself to try things out if you'd like to supplement the videos:

 

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa288436(v=vs.71).aspx 

1/30/13 11:05 AM
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theseanster
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Jons Forsberg - 
theseanster - 
Jons Forsberg - are these certs and the internship project all one needs to start applying for jobs on the field? at entry level how much can someone expect to make?


It is very progressive the first five years. I'd suggest taking low salary for your first job and only keep it for a year. Then start contracting. After about 3 gigs you'll be at 6 digits. Keep the 3 gigs down to 3-6 months. Phone Post



thanks Seanster. are these contracting jobs mostly on sourcing sites like Monster/Guru/Odesk?

Contract jobs are everywhere because there are always "single projects" that companies get capital budget money to do and they can be anywhere from 3-6-12 months at a time. If you are good, then a 3 month project can easily turn into 2-3 YEARS at the same rate. It's happened to me twice.

 

My take on starting out in the business is that you are going to come in dirt cheap. Period. There's no way around that. Rule #2 is that you HAVE TO QUIT your first gig to get more money, and you HAVE TO quit your second. The first few gigs are stepping stones. So it's OK to get underpaid and get your foot in the door with your first job and that can be a salary full time job. Take what you can get for your first 2-3. After that, if you want to make money you have to move on and go get it. Jr and mid level guys are never going to just be offered senior positions, it CAN happen but usually doesn't. Whatever you do, always do your VERY BEST work and LEAVE ON GOOD TERMS. I cannot stress this enough. If it takes you an extra hour or 2 of work per day to make you stand out above your peers, then do it. Never tell an employer or client you are leaving for more money, it can be for an "opportunity" such as a team lead or whatever, but never make it about money and always leave on good terms. I've gone back to the same place to contract at better rates, you are a known value and if your old managers like you, your new ones will hear about it.

So to answer your question: yes, it COULD be on sourcing sites, or LinkedIn, for some. After you are in the business a while, you get to know a few recruiters and recruiting companies and they know you can get the job done, make their company look good, help them get people in the door where you are contracting, etc and you will get good rates. Do good work, be professional, always leave on good terms, and keep your eye on the technology ball. Keeping a 6 digit income will not be difficult.

1/30/13 11:54 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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Edited: 01/30/13 3:45 PM
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theseanster - 
Jons Forsberg - 
theseanster - 
Jons Forsberg - are these certs and the internship project all one needs to start applying for jobs on the field? at entry level how much can someone expect to make?


It is very progressive the first five years. I'd suggest taking low salary for your first job and only keep it for a year. Then start contracting. After about 3 gigs you'll be at 6 digits. Keep the 3 gigs down to 3-6 months. Phone Post



thanks Seanster. are these contracting jobs mostly on sourcing sites like Monster/Guru/Odesk?


Contract jobs are everywhere because there are always "single projects" that companies get capital budget money to do and they can be anywhere from 3-6-12 months at a time. If you are good, then a 3 month project can easily turn into 2-3 YEARS at the same rate. It's happened to me twice.



 



My take on starting out in the business is that you are going to come in dirt cheap. Period. There's no way around that. Rule #2 is that you HAVE TO QUIT your first gig to get more money, and you HAVE TO quit your second. The first few gigs are stepping stones. So it's OK to get underpaid and get your foot in the door with your first job and that can be a salary full time job. Take what you can get for your first 2-3. After that, if you want to make money you have to move on and go get it. Jr and mid level guys are never going to just be offered senior positions, it CAN happen but usually doesn't. Whatever you do, always do your VERY BEST work and LEAVE ON GOOD TERMS. I cannot stress this enough. If it takes you an extra hour or 2 of work per day to make you stand out above your peers, then do it. Never tell an employer or client you are leaving for more money, it can be for an "opportunity" such as a team lead or whatever, but never make it about money and always leave on good terms. I've gone back to the same place to contract at better rates, you are a known value and if your old managers like you, your new ones will hear about it.



So to answer your question: yes, it COULD be on sourcing sites, or LinkedIn, for some. After you are in the business a while, you get to know a few recruiters and recruiting companies and they know you can get the job done, make their company look good, help them get people in the door where you are contracting, etc and you will get good rates. Do good work, be professional, always leave on good terms, and keep your eye on the technology ball. Keeping a 6 digit income will not be difficult.


I'm def keeping an eye on the tech ball, for years I've made a living on Flash/Actionscript deving alone, now looking to round up my skillset. I've already moved into javascript and AIR, now I'm interested in whatever else gets me work. Very happy to know that there is so much demand for SQL server and Visual Studio, thanks again man.
1/30/13 10:03 PM
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theseanster
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Yeah man, ASP.NET gigs are plentiful SQL Server gurus too. Hell, I get contacted just for SSIS alone Phone Post
2/6/13 2:19 PM
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big_slacker
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What are your thoughts on doing this part time?

I have a good deal of downtime at my current gig (not uncommon for me to have 2 weeks to a month free or light work) and have been thinking about moving towards dev as it allows for remote work.

I also think it's been mentioned that a degree is very important for devs, is this true as well on the consulting side or simply for enterprises. It seems a little odd that it would matter in a field that changes/updates so often.
2/6/13 2:34 PM
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theseanster
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big_slacker - What are your thoughts on doing this part time?

I have a good deal of downtime at my current gig (not uncommon for me to have 2 weeks to a month free or light work) and have been thinking about moving towards dev as it allows for remote work.

I also think it's been mentioned that a degree is very important for devs, is this true as well on the consulting side or simply for enterprises. It seems a little odd that it would matter in a field that changes/updates so often.
Others might have said that, I certainly haven't. Two of the best devs I know have no degree. And you're right! Tech changes you have to keep learning all of the time. 10 years ago .net was brand new, there was no jQuery, SQL Server had no Merge. Etc.

Part time is a great idea. Especially if you are inventive. Nothing better than being able to develop your own ideas IMO.

You could certainly do it bigslacker, you're a problem solver. That's all coding is Phone Post
2/6/13 6:34 PM
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big_slacker
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Sounds good. I started earlier and wrote a hello world program. Very familar, I learned C *MANY* years ago as a kid so I could code levels for a MUD that I played. It was mostly copying working examples and I tend to learn well that way, hopefully the vid series keeps up the practical 'learn by doing' format.
2/6/13 9:45 PM
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theseanster
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big_slacker - Sounds good. I started earlier and wrote a hello world program. Very familar, I learned C *MANY* years ago as a kid so I could code levels for a MUD that I played. It was mostly copying working examples and I tend to learn well that way, hopefully the vid series keeps up the practical 'learn by doing' format.
It's much simpler than C from back when...for one most people don't use pointers in C# and with intellisense, stackoverflow.com, and so much open source available life as a dev is pretty awesome nowadays Phone Post
2/6/13 9:47 PM
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theseanster
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B17 -

Sitting in Python class right now.

It makes C# seem like getting a double BJ by comparison.

I dont like Python so far.

Hey man, at least you're not doing COBOL! I had that several semesters along with JCL and IMS and a bunch of other shit I have and will never use Phone Post
2/8/13 6:54 PM
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big_slacker
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theseanster - 
big_slacker - Sounds good. I started earlier and wrote a hello world program. Very familar, I learned C *MANY* years ago as a kid so I could code levels for a MUD that I played. It was mostly copying working examples and I tend to learn well that way, hopefully the vid series keeps up the practical 'learn by doing' format.
It's much simpler than C from back when...for one most people don't use pointers in C# and with intellisense, stackoverflow.com, and so much open source available life as a dev is pretty awesome nowadays Phone Post

Yeah, I stumbled on stackoverflow looking for an error in one of the practice programs. That site is ridiculously helpful. Even the program itself tells you what line errored out and what the probable error is. That beats the hell out of going through a page or 10 of code.

Having fun so far. I like that there is a focus on efficiency and reducing the size of the code. Often when I'm doing the coding-like part of my job I'm frustrated by the lack of shortcuts and having to spell everything out due to OS limitations.
2/8/13 8:09 PM
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theseanster
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There's so many productivity features now. I learned C in VI

So check this out...in visual studio type the word "for" them hit TAB TAB. Then try it with "forr"

You don't even need to remember how to iterate an array backwards anymore. It's great to be a developer. The shit you guys do with Cisco stuff...that's the real mans work. Scares me. :) Phone Post
2/9/13 9:58 AM
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big_slacker
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theseanster - 

There's so many productivity features now. I learned C in VI

So check this out...in visual studio type the word "for" them hit TAB TAB. Then try it with "forr"

You don't even need to remember how to iterate an array backwards anymore. It's great to be a developer. The shit you guys do with Cisco stuff...that's the real mans work. Scares me. :) Phone Post



Haha, that's dope. The tools really are impressive in what they'll do for you.

I've also been perusing craigslist. Around here (Bellevue/Redmond, microsoft land) it looks like there are some fairly low level short term contracts for like 35/hr or so. Granted that's not great $$ compared to my day job, but for a spare time type of thing it's pretty good stuff.

I think if I do dive in with this the toughest part will be the first gig, with no experience convincing someone to give me a shot.

But I really like the idea of doubling up on work/pay, getting a paid for vacation condo back in Tahoe and then moving back there and switching from the day job to part time coding once the kids are off to school.
2/9/13 9:51 PM
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theseanster
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big_slacker - 
theseanster - 

There's so many productivity features now. I learned C in VI

So check this out...in visual studio type the word "for" them hit TAB TAB. Then try it with "forr"

You don't even need to remember how to iterate an array backwards anymore. It's great to be a developer. The shit you guys do with Cisco stuff...that's the real mans work. Scares me. :) Phone Post



Haha, that's dope. The tools really are impressive in what they'll do for you.

I've also been perusing craigslist. Around here (Bellevue/Redmond, microsoft land) it looks like there are some fairly low level short term contracts for like 35/hr or so. Granted that's not great $$ compared to my day job, but for a spare time type of thing it's pretty good stuff.

I think if I do dive in with this the toughest part will be the first gig, with no experience convincing someone to give me a shot.

But I really like the idea of doubling up on work/pay, getting a paid for vacation condo back in Tahoe and then moving back there and switching from the day job to part time coding once the kids are off to school.

Yeah that's the bitch. See for me it was a no-brainer because I was still in college and I got my first gig part time programming Powerbuilder for $10 bucks per hour as a sort of paid internship. My first gig after graduation was only in the 30s for salary, but after that I contracted starting at $45/hr W2, That's pretty close to 100K. I think pretty much everyone here that applies themselves can get that very easily. After that it goes up as you get to network and know people and get of the W2 business and do corp to corp contracts.

You are in a much different situation where you'd only go down in pay. Quite frankly you must be VERY good at what you do. Honestly all of the guys I graduated with that went into networking and infrastructure instead of development went to the unemployment line after the .com bubble. One guy I saw on LinkedIn went to law school and talk about another dead end, jeebus. You have to be damn good to be in IT Infrastructure or be an attorney and make any money lol

2/9/13 9:54 PM
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theseanster
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B17 - 

wow, learning to program in VI???

no thanks man

had to use it in my linux class sometimes

i preferred to use nano when i could


Yeah dude it sucked balls. The only thing worse than that was the ROSCOE editor on the mainframe for COBOL. That made me want to pour gasoline and set myself on fire. I will curl up into the fetal position and cry like a bitch if I even see a piece of greenbar paper. At least in VI  I was doing C, but fuck that editor too, or emacs   *shudder *

I've been spoiled in Visual Studio for so long I can barely tolerate anything else haha

2/10/13 12:49 PM
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big_slacker
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theseanster - 
big_slacker - 
theseanster - 

There's so many productivity features now. I learned C in VI

So check this out...in visual studio type the word "for" them hit TAB TAB. Then try it with "forr"

You don't even need to remember how to iterate an array backwards anymore. It's great to be a developer. The shit you guys do with Cisco stuff...that's the real mans work. Scares me. :) Phone Post



Haha, that's dope. The tools really are impressive in what they'll do for you.

I've also been perusing craigslist. Around here (Bellevue/Redmond, microsoft land) it looks like there are some fairly low level short term contracts for like 35/hr or so. Granted that's not great $$ compared to my day job, but for a spare time type of thing it's pretty good stuff.

I think if I do dive in with this the toughest part will be the first gig, with no experience convincing someone to give me a shot.

But I really like the idea of doubling up on work/pay, getting a paid for vacation condo back in Tahoe and then moving back there and switching from the day job to part time coding once the kids are off to school.

Yeah that's the bitch. See for me it was a no-brainer because I was still in college and I got my first gig part time programming Powerbuilder for $10 bucks per hour as a sort of paid internship. My first gig after graduation was only in the 30s for salary, but after that I contracted starting at $45/hr W2, That's pretty close to 100K. I think pretty much everyone here that applies themselves can get that very easily. After that it goes up as you get to network and know people and get of the W2 business and do corp to corp contracts.

You are in a much different situation where you'd only go down in pay. Quite frankly you must be VERY good at what you do. Honestly all of the guys I graduated with that went into networking and infrastructure instead of development went to the unemployment line after the .com bubble. One guy I saw on LinkedIn went to law school and talk about another dead end, jeebus. You have to be damn good to be in IT Infrastructure or be an attorney and make any money lol


I don't mind doing low pay or even volunteer stuff to start out. I'm not looking to do an immediate transition where one day I'm at the top of a field with a 6 figure job and the next I'm at the bottom eating ramen and living out of my car. I've got 18 years before my daughter will be off to college, haha!

The thing about networking is that the basics needed to get into a low-mid level job are pretty easily attained. That makes it tough to break in and pretty tough to keep from getting the axe in a down market, especially since most people focus on landing a job and after they get it they sit and marinate instead of looking to get better and more knowledgable. I don't think I do anything so incredibly technical that a motivated person couldn't grasp it. The higher level/pay jobs are really more about knowing how what you do will affect the business, having project management skills, doing your time in the lab before you pull the trigger, being good under fire when stuff doesn't work, etc... and being able to prove that (via interview/resume) to the person hiring you. :)

To get back to the original point of this thread instead of pontificating about job markets...

I see that it's pretty easy to do user input of strings but is there a similarly easy way of having a user enter an integer? I tried to do it with a string but got an error kicked out about not being able to convert the string to integer. I googled of course and got what looked like a fairly complicated way of doing it.
2/10/13 12:58 PM
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reagan123
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Big_Sacker. Im assuming you are just doing a c# console app. If do there are a few ways, as usual in programming, yo do this. The following msdn article explains converting a string to an integer.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb397679.aspx

Give it a shot and see if it helps. If not, come on back, im sure the seanster can clarify any questions :) Phone Post
2/10/13 1:37 PM
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theseanster
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Yeah definitely. Take the input as a string and use .tryParse()

int x;
bool valid = int.TryParse(inputstringvar, out x);

TryParse exists on almost all value types (int float double DateTime) Phone Post
2/10/13 1:50 PM
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theseanster
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reagan123 - Big_Sacker. Im assuming you are just doing a c# console app. If do there are a few ways, as usual in programming, yo do this. The following msdn article explains converting a string to an integer.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb397679.aspx

Give it a shot and see if it helps. If not, come on back, im sure the seanster can clarify any questions :) Phone Post
I suggest avoiding the exceptions. Also, you should assume the input is at best invalid, at worst dangerous. This is how XSS and SQL injections happen (and I don't mean Reagan's link I mean raw user input in general).

Use try parse to avoid exceptions and to separate user input variables from actual processing variables. It's a great method. Believe it or not it was not in v1.x of the .NET Framework and is a very welcome addition. There is also string.IsNullOrWhitespace()

Great question Phone Post
2/10/13 1:53 PM
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theseanster
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BTW the "out" keyword exists so you can have more than one return values...well, not really...but the parameter becomes a sort of return value. The compiler will choke if you don't set the out variable in your function. In this case if TryParse returns false the value will be set to the default value of the data type. For example, 0, DateTime.MinValue etc Phone Post
2/10/13 2:44 PM
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TheDecider
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Sub
2/10/13 4:32 PM
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big_slacker
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Awesome, thanks for the quick response. I'lm gonna try messing with that and plugging results into formulas for practice this week.
2/11/13 6:41 PM
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MrWillyWonka
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I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for taking the time to make these threads. I have always been interested in learning how to program and have decided to invest however much time it takes to learn the material you have provided. I have watched the first few videos on c# and am looking forward to the rest of the series. I look forward to becoming a proficient programmer, but realize it will take time for me to get there.
2/12/13 1:30 PM
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MrWillyWonka
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I have gone through the first 6 videos and have no problem understanding the concepts and reasoning behind them. I am curious if I should keep pressing on, or spend more time on each so that I have the actual code used in each respective video committed to memory? Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer!
2/13/13 8:11 PM
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theseanster
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I suggest moving forward. The idea is to get everyone into the MVC course. There will be a lot of coding in that and you'll end up on google a lot anyway Phone Post

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