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11/16/12 7:31 PM
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Zenoplata
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Are they visions of the past or foretellings?  We don't know


That was a vision of the past although there are prophecies during that part as well for instance she has visions of the Red Wedding and I think one of her son and Drogo if she didn't fuck them over.


The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

 

This suggests it's more than just a vision of the past, imo.  He's talking to Dany, telling her this. 


This is truuuee.

11/16/12 7:32 PM
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canuck34
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Damn, now I have to go back and read the books again.

Maybe fat boy will finish another chapter by the time I'm done. Phone Post
11/16/12 7:34 PM
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Zenoplata
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Speaking of Hodor what does Hodor mean and why is it all Walder can say?  Got to be a story there. Also why is a simpleton capable of compartmentalizing his mind when someone is warging him?  Again, there has to be more to this guy.


I think that's what it's like whenever a human gets warg'ed, we don't see it really happen other than Hodor - at least not described in enough detail. Sixskins tried to warg into some bitch but she went crazy and killed herself, but I think Hodor knows it's Bran so he's still very scared but he accepts it, plus he's a bit submissive to Bran.

11/16/12 8:11 PM
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Adventure Runner
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Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


Agree with the middle two. Ned is dead. Syrio is not Ja'qen.

The Hound is not dead, he's the gravedigger at the sept that Brienne goes through. His horse is seen in the stables, and the gravedigger's physical appearance matches the Hound exactly.

Dany could be Azor Ahai, but regardless who it is, I think it's extremely likely that Jon is still a Targaryen who, along with Aegon, will be the other two dragon riders.

The grave digger was a big dude. I wouldn't say that was exact.

A big dude who limped like he had a wound to his leg.  Who covered his face.  Who got along well with the dog at the Sept.  Who worked for a Septon who said he came across Sandor but states that 'The Hound" had died.

 


There is nothing imply he covered his face. The book said it was clear he was "lame" and there was a dog nearby that he pet. It was literally a few sentences.

----

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

---

Also the Septon states he buried his body...

----

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

----

I don't have the books on me, so I had to google it from another forum, but these are the points that seem to indicate Sandor Clegane is not dead:

Regarding his face being covered:
When Brienne visits the Quiet Isle, she notes that the novices of the order are not only sworn to silence, but wear woolen scarves that hide their faces.

Regarding his relative size and present injuries and other characteristics:
While walking up the path to see Elder Brother, she notices a novice digging in the lichyard who is described as even larger than her and lame (IV: 463). When Dog goes up to him, he drops his spade and scratches the dog's ear (IV: 464). Later, during a meal, the novice is described moving with a half-lurching gait (IV: 467).

GRRM has previously stated that Sandor Clegane is taller than Brienne (SSM). As last seen in ASoS, he had taken a wound to his hip that became dangerously infected, recovery from which could very likely leave his movement in that leg impaired. And as he told Sansa in ACoK, he was fond of dogs (II: 211). These details all fit the large, limping, dog-loving novice.

Regarding Elder Brother's Statement:
Finally, when Brienne discusses Sandor Clegane with the Elder Brother, she dejectedly remarks that Sandor Clegane is dead, to which he responds, "He is at rest." (IV: 470) Later, he says, "the Hound is Dead".

Elder Brother's very specific phrasing, e.g., that Sandor Clegane is "at rest" but that "the Hound" is dead has been understood that Elder Brother is hiding the truth without outright lying. The novice who is trying to find peace on the Quiet Isle is Sandor, who has put aside the rage and hatred that made him the Hound, "killing" that part of his persona.

Good point about the face covering, but I take the rest with a grain of salt.

The dude has a limp... OK. No biggie to me. The dude pet a dog that went close to him? Yeah. I'd do the same thing as would 90% of men I know. That's a pretty common thing.

The Elder Brother legitimately, flat out says he buried his body and covered it with stones to carrion eaters couldn't dig up his grave. Could it be a cover up? Sure, but you can't try to cherry pick "the hound is dead" to mean anything greater when you ignore the rest. My $.02.

If you re-read your quote, Elder Brother says he buried "him," and does not say, explicitly, that he buried the body of Clegane/Hound. Seems consistent (to me) that he means the Hound is buried, if not so much Clegane. He also covered "him" (his armor?) with stones, although he does mention flesh, so I can see your interpretation.

Still, the combination of the other pieces of evidence seems overwhelming. One or two of those pieces by themselves might be a random coincidence but given the presence of Clegane's horse and all of the other indicators put together (uncommon size, limp, affinity for dogs, non-committal response to Clegane being dead) seem to suggest that Sandor's alive. Being larger than Brienne seems not as common as having a limp and petting a dog, right?

Given that he likely has a motive for protecting Sandor's identity (as a novice of his order) and helping him put the past behind him makes the whole thing seem pretty cut and dry to me.

I hear ya, bro. I just think its a red herring put there to intentionally deceive. Martin likes to fuck with people.
11/16/12 8:18 PM
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Zenoplata
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One thing no one has mentioned.

How did Stranger get into the stable? He bites and kicks anyone that isn't Sandor. GRRM went through great lengths to describe how difficult it was for Brienne and company to actually get there without sinking. No way Stranger wanders aimlessly across the sandbar/whatever it was in a twisting path by accident or that one of the brothers is able to guide him.

11/16/12 8:36 PM
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Adventure Runner
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Zenoplata - 

One thing no one has mentioned.

How did Stranger get into the stable? He bites and kicks anyone that isn't Sandor. GRRM went through great lengths to describe how difficult it was for Brienne and company to actually get there without sinking. No way Stranger wanders aimlessly across the sandbar/whatever it was in a twisting path by accident or that one of the brothers is able to guide him.


That's what Arya said. I'm not so sure I'll let the perception of a 9 year old girl form the basis of my view of reality in terms of that. Maybe it'd be tough for said 9 year old girl to control a trained war horse, but a former soldier (like the elder brother) or a horseman would probably have less difficulty.

On top of that, Sandor was nearly dead. IF Sandor is alive and was at the Isle, it's not like he was found in good enough shape to grab Stranger to bring him along to the Isle. He would have had to be transported there. Somebody would have had to have taken Stranger either way whether Sandor is alive or dead.
11/16/12 9:51 PM
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Flyers179
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Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


Agree with the middle two. Ned is dead. Syrio is not Ja'qen.

The Hound is not dead, he's the gravedigger at the sept that Brienne goes through. His horse is seen in the stables, and the gravedigger's physical appearance matches the Hound exactly.

Dany could be Azor Ahai, but regardless who it is, I think it's extremely likely that Jon is still a Targaryen who, along with Aegon, will be the other two dragon riders.

The grave digger was a big dude. I wouldn't say that was exact.

A big dude who limped like he had a wound to his leg.  Who covered his face.  Who got along well with the dog at the Sept.  Who worked for a Septon who said he came across Sandor but states that 'The Hound" had died.

 


There is nothing imply he covered his face. The book said it was clear he was "lame" and there was a dog nearby that he pet. It was literally a few sentences.

----

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

---

Also the Septon states he buried his body...

----

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

----

I don't have the books on me, so I had to google it from another forum, but these are the points that seem to indicate Sandor Clegane is not dead:

Regarding his face being covered:
When Brienne visits the Quiet Isle, she notes that the novices of the order are not only sworn to silence, but wear woolen scarves that hide their faces.

Regarding his relative size and present injuries and other characteristics:
While walking up the path to see Elder Brother, she notices a novice digging in the lichyard who is described as even larger than her and lame (IV: 463). When Dog goes up to him, he drops his spade and scratches the dog's ear (IV: 464). Later, during a meal, the novice is described moving with a half-lurching gait (IV: 467).

GRRM has previously stated that Sandor Clegane is taller than Brienne (SSM). As last seen in ASoS, he had taken a wound to his hip that became dangerously infected, recovery from which could very likely leave his movement in that leg impaired. And as he told Sansa in ACoK, he was fond of dogs (II: 211). These details all fit the large, limping, dog-loving novice.

Regarding Elder Brother's Statement:
Finally, when Brienne discusses Sandor Clegane with the Elder Brother, she dejectedly remarks that Sandor Clegane is dead, to which he responds, "He is at rest." (IV: 470) Later, he says, "the Hound is Dead".

Elder Brother's very specific phrasing, e.g., that Sandor Clegane is "at rest" but that "the Hound" is dead has been understood that Elder Brother is hiding the truth without outright lying. The novice who is trying to find peace on the Quiet Isle is Sandor, who has put aside the rage and hatred that made him the Hound, "killing" that part of his persona.

Good point about the face covering, but I take the rest with a grain of salt.

The dude has a limp... OK. No biggie to me. The dude pet a dog that went close to him? Yeah. I'd do the same thing as would 90% of men I know. That's a pretty common thing.

The Elder Brother legitimately, flat out says he buried his body and covered it with stones to carrion eaters couldn't dig up his grave. Could it be a cover up? Sure, but you can't try to cherry pick "the hound is dead" to mean anything greater when you ignore the rest. My $.02.

If you re-read your quote, Elder Brother says he buried "him," and does not say, explicitly, that he buried the body of Clegane/Hound. Seems consistent (to me) that he means the Hound is buried, if not so much Clegane. He also covered "him" (his armor?) with stones, although he does mention flesh, so I can see your interpretation.

Still, the combination of the other pieces of evidence seems overwhelming. One or two of those pieces by themselves might be a random coincidence but given the presence of Clegane's horse and all of the other indicators put together (uncommon size, limp, affinity for dogs, non-committal response to Clegane being dead) seem to suggest that Sandor's alive. Being larger than Brienne seems not as common as having a limp and petting a dog, right?

Given that he likely has a motive for protecting Sandor's identity (as a novice of his order) and helping him put the past behind him makes the whole thing seem pretty cut and dry to me.

I hear ya, bro. I just think its a red herring put there to intentionally deceive. Martin likes to fuck with people.

Yeah Adventure I understand your POV here but when it comes down to it I think you're simply in a bit of denial.

Martin likes to fuck with people, yes, but he doesn't do it in this fashion. He plants little details like this all over his books for careful readers (unfortunately the internet creates a hive mind where anyone can read what an other reader has processed and break down the books) but even when he is simply playing with the readers he has a payoff to that red herring. Here though I don't see any other punchline to the Quiet Isle chapter other than Sandor Clegane is still alive.

The Hound is dead not just because of his wounds, but because The Mountain has been killed and at another man's hands no less. This would break Sandor as much as the wound and fever.

You may be right Adventure and I simply want the younger Clegane to still be alive (and in denial myself) but I don't believe that is the case. If the Hound was to die I believe his death would have been more grand. Arya leaving the man there to die is all too telling, imo. She has empathy for Sandor Clegane.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Sandor Clegane was the one to kill our 'new' mountain Robert Strong.

Also, a possible red herring is the leading everyone to believe Aegon is a Blackfyre due to the AFfC comment about the Three Headed Dragon that had a head wash up red on the shores. There are those that believe it is Martin fucking with his readers here as well.

*sigh* Only time will tell. I'll be reading Winds with a half hard on that is for sure.
11/16/12 10:18 PM
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Mencken
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The Mountain isn't dead either.  It's obvious who he is now

11/17/12 4:23 AM
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Zenoplata
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He would've ridden Stranger probably.

And Stranger broke one of the brother's collar bones and bit off anothers ear I believe.

11/17/12 5:17 AM
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CyborgRoyce
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Mencken - 

The Mountain isn't dead either.  It's obvious who he is now


Well, technically he's dead but reanimated I guess. 

11/17/12 5:47 AM
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bonersaurus
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Doesn't Bran have a vision of the Hound fighting Jaime with FrankenGregor looking on, in the very first book? Phone Post
11/17/12 9:05 AM
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Flyers179
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bonersaurus -  Doesn't Bran have a vision of the Hound fighting Jaime with FrankenGregor looking on, in the very first book? Phone Post

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Not fighting per se but the three men are in those visions.
11/17/12 9:08 AM
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Delorian
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Gregor isn't dead, either is Sandor.  They will meet in armed combat under their new guises and deliver one of the greatest written battles in the history of ASoIaF! 

11/17/12 9:29 AM
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LittleKang
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Flyers179 -
bonersaurus -  Doesn't Bran have a vision of the Hound fighting Jaime with FrankenGregor looking on, in the very first book? Phone Post

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Not fighting per se but the three men are in those visions.
That quote is in reference to Ned having to kill Lady when Nemeria attacked Joffrey Phone Post
11/17/12 10:18 AM
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Flyers179
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bonersaurus -  Doesn't Bran have a vision of the Hound fighting Jaime with FrankenGregor looking on, in the very first book? Phone Post

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Not fighting per se but the three men are in those visions.
That quote is in reference to Ned having to kill Lady when Nemeria attacked Joffrey Phone Post

Way to read the whole quote champ.

"....There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

From the above quote and in reference to what bonersaurus was asking.

If you've read through Martin's 5 books, is one quote off a single page really that hard to finish?
11/17/12 10:38 AM
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Mencken
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Delorian - 

Gregor isn't dead, either is Sandor.  They will meet in armed combat under their new guises and deliver one of the greatest written battles in the history of ASoIaF! 


You mean it will be the greatest battle that other characters will talk about having happened

11/17/12 10:41 AM
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Delorian
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Mencken -
Delorian - 

Gregor isn't dead, either is Sandor.  They will meet in armed combat under their new guises and deliver one of the greatest written battles in the history of ASoIaF! 


You mean it will be the greatest battle that other characters will talk about having happened

Yeah I suppose. It'll be glorious. Phone Post
11/17/12 12:50 PM
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TheRealJoker
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This thread has my nerd boner fully torqued.
11/17/12 3:03 PM
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Zenoplata
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Right now I'm investigating the Jojen/Weirdwood paste theory.

It sort of makes sense, but a big part of me doesn't want Jojen to get mushed up to paste and eaten by Bran lol.

11/17/12 5:38 PM
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Evie
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Speaking of the Children, I can't help but feel like they're going to turn into a malevolent force, somehow. I don't know why, just a fantasy nerd's hunch. Omnipotent neutrality often has a way of working against humans, thanks to our propensity to destroy nature. 

11/17/12 5:39 PM
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LINDE
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Zenoplata - 

Right now I'm investigating the Jojen/Weirdwood paste theory.

It sort of makes sense, but a big part of me doesn't want Jojen to get mushed up to paste and eaten by Bran lol.


Didn't Jojen have a Greendream where he was able to see what would happen to him when he returns to Greywater?

11/17/12 5:42 PM
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Evie
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Woo! Go Utes! :D 

/random

11/17/12 6:35 PM
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LINDE
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Woo! Go Utes! :D 

/random


VTFU

11/17/12 7:54 PM
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LittleKang
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Any theories if GRRM will tell of the origins of wights/others Phone Post
11/17/12 8:32 PM
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Delorian
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Jesus, all of you guys posting the things you're posting is quickly making me realize that I need to re-read this series again.  


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