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11/21/12 4:57 PM
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dizz
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Well I fucked that quote up. But anyways, I still don't see why they should have married. Yes, if they were married, that affects Jon's claim to the throne. But I don't think Martin is taking Jon down that route - think the Azor Ahai route is more likely.

I think, based on what we know of Rhaegar, that yes, he would go to war over his mistress, if he loved her. He would assigned three KG to the Tower of Joy to protect them and his bastard.

I'm not saying the marriage thing is untrue, just that there's no reason to believe they married over that they didn't.

 

 

//also, I haven't been really paying attention to the whole marriage discussion, so I'm not sure if that's what anyone is even saying. But in true OG fashion I feel the need to assert my two cents anyways.

11/21/12 4:58 PM
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dizz
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MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

Are we talking the three KG (Bull, Dayne, and someone else) at the Tower of Joy?

11/21/12 5:00 PM
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Mencken
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dizz - 
MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

Are we talking the three KG (Bull, Dayne, and someone else) at the Tower of Joy?


I was, yah. 

Mick: Kingsguard protects the royal family.  That is their reason for existing.  They are not mere prison guards. 

11/21/12 5:04 PM
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dizz
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Right, I thought the 3 being there was alluding to Jon being there (if you go with the R+L=J theory). I don't think whether or not Jon being a bastard matters (presumably, from what we know of Rhaegar, he would treat his bastards differently than Robert did)

11/21/12 5:06 PM
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Mencken
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dizz - 

Right, I thought the 3 being there was alluding to Jon being there (if you go with the R+L=J theory). I don't think whether or not Jon being a bastard matters (presumably, from what we know of Rhaegar, he would treat his bastards differently than Robert did)


That's true.  I don't think Jon being legitimate is necessary for them to be there...but I think their presence is further justified if he is legit. 

Still though, I personally don't think they were married, and I agree that I don't think it's GRRM's plan to go that route with Jon

11/21/12 5:14 PM
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dizz
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Yeah, there's enough issues about legitimate claims stemming from this Aegon shit

11/21/12 5:17 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Mencken - 
dizz - 
MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

Are we talking the three KG (Bull, Dayne, and someone else) at the Tower of Joy?


I was, yah. 

Mick: Kingsguard protects the royal family.  That is their reason for existing.  They are not mere prison guards. 


Third KG was Oswell Whent.

It's not like Lyanna was some random chick, either. She was a noble and her absence/abduction was THE catalyst to the entire uprising, afterall.

By the time of the events at the Tower of Joy, she was at the very least, the single most important political prisoner that could have been used for negotiations had the Targaryens not been defeated so comprehensively.

Btw, I'm not arguing Rhaegar and Lyanna are or are not married. I don't think that's all that relevant anyway since, like dizz, I don't think the legitimacy of his claim is all that important. Aegon (as the elder child) would have precedence over Jon anyway.

What if Jon isn't his real name? It doesn't sound all that Targaryen-y, if you know what I mean. Seems like Lyanna might have had some input in that, but that's not a Stark name either. Jon, however, IS the name of both Eddard's foster (Arryn) and Rhaegar's best friend (Connington). Maybe Jon was a pseudonym to hide his true name?

Then again, maybe he was named after either of those dudes.

Shrug. The beauty of GRRM's writing, I guess.


11/21/12 5:34 PM
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MickColins
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Mencken -
dizz - 
MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

Are we talking the three KG (Bull, Dayne, and someone else) at the Tower of Joy?


I was, yah. 

Mick: Kingsguard protects the royal family.  That is their reason for existing.  They are not mere prison guards. 

Kingsguard do what they are told, as we have seen throughout the series. They are like the Praetorian Guard. Here's one thing I've always wondered: Ned and Howland Reed go to the tower, why fight them? Ned and Howland aren't going to harm her or the potential kid. Phone Post
11/21/12 5:37 PM
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dizz
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MickColins - 
Mencken -
dizz - 
MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

Are we talking the three KG (Bull, Dayne, and someone else) at the Tower of Joy?


I was, yah. 

Mick: Kingsguard protects the royal family.  That is their reason for existing.  They are not mere prison guards. 

Kingsguard do what they are told, as we have seen throughout the series. They are like the Praetorian Guard. Here's one thing I've always wondered: Ned and Howland Reed go to the tower, why fight them? Ned and Howland aren't going to harm her or the potential kid. Phone Post

Ned wouldn't, but Robert would kill the bastard (or non-bastard) child of Rhaegar. He hated Targaryens, as we all know.

11/21/12 7:43 PM
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leifdawg
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MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

3 Kings guard to guard 1 woman prisoner and a newborn baby seems a bit overkill don't you think?
11/21/12 9:09 PM
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Awesomo4000
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leifdawg - 
MickColins - 
Mencken -

^That's a valid point.  Why would the three Kingsguard be assigned to a bastard? 

Maybe they weren't protecting her, maybe they were guarding her and she was a prisoner. Phone Post

3 Kings guard to guard 1 woman prisoner and a newborn baby seems a bit overkill don't you think?

If the argument is that:
1) Kingsguard are used to guard the royal family;
2) Kingsguard were used to guard Lyanna,
then 1 + 2 = Lyanna is the royal family

then...why weren't any members of the royal family being guarded by the KG during the whole rebellion?

Hightower, Whent, Dayne were at the Tower of Joy.

Selmy led a host (with Darry) at the Trident separate from Rhaegar's force.

Lewyn Martell led still another host at the Trident.

Jaime was kept at King's Landing more to prevent Tywin from taking the field than to protect anyone.

If the Kingsguard's only duty is to protect the royal family, why were the king, the queen, dany, viserys, Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, and Rhaegar himself all unprotected by the KG?

By the time Ned and his homies rolled up to the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar was already dead, so Lyanna wasn't really a member of the royal family anymore (especially considering Aerys and Rhaella were still alive, as well as the crown prince Viserys).

The argument that Kingsguard only protect members of the royal family so Lyanna must be a member of the royal family doesn't hold much water when none of the other members of the royal family were protected by the KG, nor were other members of the KG protecting any other members of the royal family?

Not saying that definitively precludes her from being married to Rhaegar, but that particular piece isn't too compelling imo.
11/21/12 9:16 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Edited: 11/21/12 9:16 PM
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Sorry, forgot who the seventh member of the KG was. Had to look it up. It was Gwayne Gaunt (whoever that is), He died at the battle of Duskendale, presumably under the command of Connington (and away from any members of the royal family).
11/21/12 9:27 PM
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Evie
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I don't see how anyone could deny the R + L = Jon theory. There's just *so* much evidence!

Here are some facts that we know of:

From Robert's perspective:

Lyanna Stark was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. It was said that she wasn't all that into him and worried about his whoring. Rhaegar Targaryen was married to Elia Martell and had two children with her.  Rhaegar won a tourney and presented the prize (a crown of blue roses) for the “queen of love and beauty” to Lyanna instead of his wife.  Shortly after that, Rhaegar “stole” Lyanna away and 'raped' her, so Robert began a war to get her back. Robert killed Rhaegar, but later said to Ned that he still 'won', because he gets to spend eternity with Lyanna in the afterlife. Why would they willingly spend eternity together unless they loved each other?

But Robert appears to be the only person who has a bad word to say about Rhaegar. Everyone talks of how kind and just he was - not really the type to kidnap and rape a woman. Barristan Selmy says that Rhaegar loved her deeply. Viserys says that Rheagar fought and died for 'the woman he loved'. Theon sees a vision of the ghosts of Winterfell, including one who must be Lyanna, because she's wearing a crown of blue roses and a white dress, 'splattered in gore'. Possible wedding symbolism?

When Ned found Lyanna, it was said that she was in 'a bed of blood', which GRRM uses as a euphamism for childbirth several times throughout the series. She is found in The Tower of Joy - A strange name for a lonely tower in Dorne, unless historically connected with childbirth somehow. Lyanna made Ned Promise her something. Then, all of a sudden, Ned heads back to Winterfell with his 'bastard offspring', something so completely out of character, it's unbelievable. The fact that Ned strongly objected to Robert's passion for killing Targ babies, to the point of not speaking to him for years over it, more than sets up a solid reason for keeping Jon a secret. The fact that Jon is a secret at all explains why shortly before his death, Ned gave Varys, a known and staunch Targaryen loyalist, an important letter to be delivered specifically to Jon.

 

I would say that we *know*, at this point, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. We know that they had sex, though according to Robert, it was rape. We know that Ned Stark is 'too good to father a bastard'; that much has been hammered into us repeatedly, ad nauseum. We know that both Jon's birth and Lyanna's death happened in/around Dorne (see: Cersei's rant about 'Honor' to Ned). We know that Ned wasn't in Dorne long enough to father and come back with a baby (see: Cat's confusion/hurt over the timeline). We know that Lyanna forced Ned to promise her something; something so powerful that it haunts his dreams and nightmares, and he never tells another living soul (Howland Reed was a witness, however), to the detriment of his reputation. We know that three of the best Kingsguard were sent to protect Lyanna in the Tower of Joy at a crucially important time, when their skills could've saved Aerys. Those three kingsguard died to protect Lyanna, the baby and their secret, and the Kingsguard's only sworn duty is to protect the Royal family.

Unless GRRM somehow pulls the most insane flipperoo known to man, all arrows point to Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

 

Random aside: Lyanna was totally the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I feel like her 'secret history' of being not only a highly-skilled swordsman and rider, but one of the best around, will unfold into a far more interesting arc than 'poor, tragic Stark girl'.

11/21/12 9:58 PM
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canuck34
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Could I just quickly say that how amazing is it that we are all debating a fictional world created by a fat old dude?

I am very much invested in this story and love that we all want to believe we know what is happening. Phone Post
11/21/12 10:02 PM
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MickColins
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Robert didn't develop his utter hatred for the targs until she died. He would not have killed the kid even if it was Rhaegars. Ned says as much when he says the Robert he knew wasn't afraid of a kid(when the whole khaleesi is preggers thing got back to them). Robert also didn't go into the rebellion with the goal of dethroning the targs. He just wanted justice. Phone Post
11/21/12 10:07 PM
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MickColins
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Evie, that's why I think the Lyanna/Rhagear Jon thing is a red herring. Too much easy info and too simple. Phone Post
11/21/12 10:18 PM
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canuck34
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MickColins - Robert didn't develop his utter hatred for the targs until she died. He would not have killed the kid even if it was Rhaegars. Ned says as much when he says the Robert he knew wasn't afraid of a kid(when the whole khaleesi is preggers thing got back to them). Robert also didn't go into the rebellion with the goal of dethroning the targs. He just wanted justice. Phone Post
In think that Robert thought she was dead before she was actually dead. Ned knew she loved the wrong guy and hid it from Robert. Phone Post
11/21/12 10:36 PM
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Evie
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Edited: 11/22/12 12:31 AM
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I don't think that Robert hated the Targaryen's initially, just Rhaegar.

Robert was there at the tourney, when R crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. It is blatantly obvious that Robert was madly in love with Lyanna, and this must've made him boil. Then, Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar and Robert, in his endless arrogance and jealousy, assumes that she has been kidnapped despite much evidence to the contrary (because there's just no way that a woman *wouldn't* want Robert Barratheon, amirite?!). Robert then goes on a revenge/hate mission to kill Rhaegar with Ned's naive, honor-bound help, inadvertantly starting a whole war in the process.

I don't think Robert had any inclination about what he was doing. He was just following his passion and cock rather than his head. He said many times that he didn't intend to be king, he just wanted Lyanna. Aerys officially losing his mind and killing two Starks was completely coincidental - the spark that set the whole thing alight. Robert and Ned were young lads, playing Knight in Shining Armor, unaware that they were playing into the much larger Game of Thrones.

I'm pretty sure that the 'loss' of Lyanna to R (which Robert never ever saw as his fault), mixed with the fact that Aerys had just cooked Ned's father over an open fire while his brother choked to death trying to save him, was enough to turn Robert completely anti-Targaryen.

I completely disagree with the idea that Robert wouldn't kill Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby if he knew about it. He was delusional in his insistance that Lyanna was 'stolen' from him and 'raped' by R; he would view any product of that 'rape' as an abomination and something that needs to be destroyed. Not least because that child would undermine and challenge his already tenuous claim to the throne.

11/22/12 12:43 AM
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MickColins
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Edited: 11/22/12 12:44 AM
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"I completely disagree with the idea that Robert wouldn't kill Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby if he knew about it. He was delusional in his insistance that Lyanna was 'stolen' from him and 'raped' by R; he would view any product of that 'rape' as an abomination and something that needs to be destroyed. Not least because that child would undermine and challenge his already tenuous claim to the throne."

 

Robert quite obviously loved Lyanna. He wouldn't have killed her kid/Ned's nephew. He also wouldn't have killed a kid. A big deal was made about the fact that he was willing to kill the potential Targ kid and that was only years and years after Lyanna had been killed. And he told Ned to call it off and regretted ordering it. And thats AFTER he believed a Targ killed his girl. I think its interesting how Rhaegar and Robert are percieved by fans. I look at Robert as a Shakespearian hero. He won but it was a pyrrhic victory and he lived an unhappy life because of it. Sure, he was a drunk and a shitty husbad but he kind of died when that war ended. Fans seem to love Rhaegar and, to me, he's a way shittier guy than Robert. He was an arrogant aristocrat who didn't give a shit about his actions ramifications and believed in dumb prophecies. He also abandoned his wife and kids. And he allowed his crazy  father to roast the Starks. Guys like Berristan Selmy and Connington talk up how nifty Rhaegar was but they are hardly unbiased sources.

 

Here's another thing: Lyanna is a Stark. Her father and brother are murdered and her brother has a death sentence slapped on him...and y'all think she'd want to hang around with the Targs? The Starks seemed to put a premium on loyalty and she seems like the type who'd try to go home and diffuse the situation. However, Rhaegar seemed like the type not to allow something he deems belonging to him to leave. Which could be why she was stuck out in a tower with three soldiers loyal to the Targs preventing her from leaving. Also, a big question yet to be answered, why did she die? Its assumed she died because of child birth but she'd have the a maester or whatever provided by the Targs. 

11/22/12 1:51 AM
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The Noose
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MickColins - 

"I completely disagree with the idea that Robert wouldn't kill Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby if he knew about it. He was delusional in his insistance that Lyanna was 'stolen' from him and 'raped' by R; he would view any product of that 'rape' as an abomination and something that needs to be destroyed. Not least because that child would undermine and challenge his already tenuous claim to the throne."

 

Robert quite obviously loved Lyanna. He wouldn't have killed her kid/Ned's nephew. He also wouldn't have killed a kid. A big deal was made about the fact that he was willing to kill the potential Targ kid and that was only years and years after Lyanna had been killed. And he told Ned to call it off and regretted ordering it. And thats AFTER he believed a Targ killed his girl. I think its interesting how Rhaegar and Robert are percieved by fans. I look at Robert as a Shakespearian hero. He won but it was a pyrrhic victory and he lived an unhappy life because of it. Sure, he was a drunk and a shitty husbad but he kind of died when that war ended. Fans seem to love Rhaegar and, to me, he's a way shittier guy than Robert. He was an arrogant aristocrat who didn't give a shit about his actions ramifications and believed in dumb prophecies. He also abandoned his wife and kids. And he allowed his crazy  father to roast the Starks. Guys like Berristan Selmy and Connington talk up how nifty Rhaegar was but they are hardly unbiased sources.

 

Here's another thing: Lyanna is a Stark. Her father and brother are murdered and her brother has a death sentence slapped on him...and y'all think she'd want to hang around with the Targs? The Starks seemed to put a premium on loyalty and she seems like the type who'd try to go home and diffuse the situation. However, Rhaegar seemed like the type not to allow something he deems belonging to him to leave. Which could be why she was stuck out in a tower with three soldiers loyal to the Targs preventing her from leaving. Also, a big question yet to be answered, why did she die? Its assumed she died because of child birth but she'd have the a maester or whatever provided by the Targs. 


Man, I've been sold on the R+L=J theory for a while, bit this is the best argument against I've seen.

Did Lyanna know about her Dad and brother being put to death by aerys? I don't remember the timeline. Was there time for word to reach her? Why the fighting with the KG if she wasn't a hostage?

And if Rhaegar was such an admirable person, and intelligent as described, why would he take off with a woman betrothed to a powerful house? Even if she was willing, he had to know it would lead to war and cause the death of many people.

Im still on the R/L=J side though. I have a bad feeling that the scope/details of this story grew out of GRRM's control and some details like this will get overlooked. because maybe GRRM didn't consider this part of the story from that perspective. He is only human and the story is pretty huge. Hope I'm wrong though.
11/22/12 2:31 AM
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Evie
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Edited: 11/22/12 2:34 AM
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But Robert *DID* kill Targaryen kids - He ordered Gregore Clegane and Armory Lorch to kill Rhaenys and Aegon. We know that Aegon survived, but Robert didn't know that. It was why Ned didn't speak to Robert for years. He ordered the death of Dany and her baby too, and only changed his mind when Ned threw a shit fit and quit as Hand. Robert had NO problem killing Targaryen kids!

You're right, we don't know that much about Rhaegar beyond what people say about him. But it's all so overwhelmingly in the positive, it's hard to ignore. Ned, Jamie, Selmy, Tyrion, Varys, Mormont... A bunch more people I can't remember.. All thought he would've made a good king, and have said something to the effect of how nice he was.

Through Jamie's recollection, Raegar said "When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return". Connington tells Dany about Aerys being a crazy fuck, telling her "By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough". I take this to mean that he fully intended on dealing with his father when he got back from dealing with Robert's rebellion.

As far as Lyanna goes: Yes, she's a Stark, but she's also described as being very willful, hot-tempered and brave, not to mention an good swordsman and extremely good rider. Highly intelligent with a good moral compass. If she really was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, she was just as hot on 'honor' as Ned. As I said earlier, it is obvious that a lot more about Lyanna's character has yet to come out, and I would be very surprised if she isn't every bit as independent and wilfull as Arya, who is compared to L several times. But that's besides the point in this situation: If Lyanna *IS* Jon's mother, then she wouldn't have been able to do anything about her father and brother's death even if she wanted to - she would've been too heavily pregnant to travel such a long distance.

I guess we'll find out what happened when Varys finally gives Jon the letter, heh...

11/22/12 2:51 AM
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LINDE
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Evie - 

But Robert *DID* kill Targaryen kids - He ordered Gregore Clegane and Armory Lorch to kill Rhaenys and Aegon. We know that Aegon survived, but Robert didn't know that. It was why Ned didn't speak to Robert for years. He ordered the death of Dany and her baby too, and only changed his mind when Ned threw a shit fit and quit as Hand. Robert had NO problem killing Targaryen kids!

You're right, we don't know that much about Rhaegar beyond what people say about him. But it's all so overwhelmingly in the positive, it's hard to ignore. Ned, Jamie, Selmy, Tyrion, Varys, Mormont... A bunch more people I can't remember.. All thought he would've made a good king, and have said something to the effect of how nice he was.

Through Jamie's recollection, Raegar said "When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return". Connington tells Dany about Aerys being a crazy fuck, telling her "By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough". I take this to mean that he fully intended on dealing with his father when he got back from dealing with Robert's rebellion.

As far as Lyanna goes: Yes, she's a Stark, but she's also described as being very willful, hot-tempered and brave, not to mention an good swordsman and extremely good rider. Highly intelligent with a good moral compass. If she really was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, she was just as hot on 'honor' as Ned. As I said earlier, it is obvious that a lot more about Lyanna's character has yet to come out, and I would be very surprised if she isn't every bit as independent and wilfull as Arya, who is compared to L several times. But that's besides the point in this situation: If Lyanna *IS* Jon's mother, then she wouldn't have been able to do anything about her father and brother's death even if she wanted to - she would've been too heavily pregnant to travel such a long distance.

I guess we'll find out what happened when Varys finally gives Jon the letter, heh...


Tywin Lannister ordered Clegane and Lorch to kill Rhaenys and Aegon, Robert did not give the order. He did however condone the killing by refusing to punish those involved. Which is what led to the fallout between Ned Stark and Robert.

11/22/12 3:05 AM
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Evie
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Ah, sorry, my mistake. Phone Post
11/22/12 3:38 AM
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MickColins
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As someone said, Robert didn't have anything to do with killing the kids. Ned was pissed he didn't punish Tywin's guys but this was post-Lyanna being dead. Lyanna being willful to me also has much more likely to not sit on her hands while members of her family get greased.

As for Rhaegar, I just get a vibe that he's like FDR and JFK. His admirers all talk him up and the reality was that they were both kind of scuzzy. Rhaegar also gets described as being aloof, a crappy husband and weird as well as being an okay guy. Connington obviously wanted to blow him, Selmy thought he'd be a good king, Ned thought he was alright, etc...tho Ned's ability to judge character seemed a wee bit naive. Phone Post
11/22/12 8:42 AM
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HayemakeredByHaye
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Member Since: 6/27/02
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"Robert quite obviously loved Lyanna. He wouldn't have killed her kid/Ned's nephew. He also wouldn't have killed a kid. A big deal was made about the fact that he was willing to kill the potential Targ kid and that was only years and years after Lyanna had been killed. And he told Ned to call it off and regretted ordering it. And thats AFTER he believed a Targ killed his girl. I think its interesting how Rhaegar and Robert are percieved by fans. I look at Robert as a Shakespearian hero. He won but it was a pyrrhic victory and he lived an unhappy life because of it. Sure, he was a drunk and a shitty husbad but he kind of died when that war ended. Fans seem to love Rhaegar and, to me, he's a way shittier guy than Robert. He was an arrogant aristocrat who didn't give a shit about his actions ramifications and believed in dumb prophecies. He also abandoned his wife and kids. And he allowed his crazy father to roast the Starks. Guys like Berristan Selmy and Connington talk up how nifty Rhaegar was but they are hardly unbiased sources."

I am with you homey. Great stuff.


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