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11/22/12 8:50 AM
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HayemakeredByHaye
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"Robert was there at the tourney, when R crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. It is blatantly obvious that Robert was madly in love with Lyanna, and this must've made him boil. Then, Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar and Robert, in his endless arrogance and jealousy, assumes that she has been kidnapped despite much evidence to the contrary (because there's just no way that a woman *wouldn't* want Robert Barratheon, amirite?!). Robert then goes on a revenge/hate mission to kill Rhaegar with Ned's naive, honor-bound help, inadvertantly starting a whole war in the process."


Sounds like Lyanna didnt make her true feelings clear enough to Robert or Rhaegar DID kidnap her. I think if either of them is likely to consider themselves irresistible or more importantly not care what Lyanna wanted itd unquestionably Rhaegar. Rhaegar was a man on a mission.

Didnt Barristan say That Robert was as chivalrous as any Knight could hope to be or soemthing along those lines?

11/22/12 9:25 AM
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Adventure Runner
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"Robert was there at the tourney, when R crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. It is blatantly obvious that Robert was madly in love with Lyanna, and this must've made him boil. Then, Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar and Robert, in his endless arrogance and jealousy, assumes that she has been kidnapped despite much evidence to the contrary (because there's just no way that a woman *wouldn't* want Robert Barratheon, amirite?!). Robert then goes on a revenge/hate mission to kill Rhaegar with Ned's naive, honor-bound help, inadvertantly starting a whole war in the process."

Lyanna was a noble daughter of one of the great houses on the 7 Kingdoms. She goes NOWHERE without the say-so of her father and liege-lord. She can't just elope. Her father must arrange a marriage for her. Robert is not who started this war.

This war started when Ned's brother rushed to King's Landing rightfully demanding the return of his sister and for Rhaegar to come out and die. He was arrested and Ned's father was summoned to King's Landing to answer for his son's crimes. He ended up demanding trial by combat, and he was burned alive since Aerys said the Targ champion is fire. Ned's bro was put in a strangulation device, forced to watch, and strangled himself in the process of trying to save his dad.

Then Aerys demands the heads of Robert and Ned. It was only THEN than Jon Arryn raised his banners in defiance, and the North and Storm Lands raised theirs as well. Robert may have led one of the hosts and was ultimately crowned king because he had the best claim to the throne, but it's not like Lyanna was kidnapped, so Robert started a war. That's not what happened at all.
11/22/12 11:54 AM
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Zenoplata
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Selmy and the other Kingsguard were leading hosts in an effort to protect the royal family. They don't necessarily need to be personal bodyguards, but their actions are intended to protect the royal family nonetheless.

Think about it; there is a giant army sitting outside waiting to attack Kings Landing, so sending one of the KG in an effort to lead an army to stop them makes sense.

Personally I think Dayne, Hightower and Whent were protecting Jon/Lyanna. One of the other Kingsguard was already with Viserys, but with Rhaegar dead his son would be more important than Viserys as he would be the direct decendant and next in line.

Also, if Aegon really is Aegon they thought he was dead. What's more likely is that Aegon is not really Aegon, however.

11/22/12 12:57 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - 

Selmy and the other Kingsguard were leading hosts in an effort to protect the royal family. They don't necessarily need to be personal bodyguards, but their actions are intended to protect the royal family nonetheless.

Think about it; there is a giant army sitting outside waiting to attack Kings Landing, so sending one of the KG in an effort to lead an army to stop them makes sense.

Personally I think Dayne, Hightower and Whent were protecting Jon/Lyanna. One of the other Kingsguard was already with Viserys, but with Rhaegar dead his son would be more important than Viserys as he would be the direct decendant and next in line.

Also, if Aegon really is Aegon they thought he was dead. What's more likely is that Aegon is not really Aegon, however.


darry was the knight who was with viserys and daenerys. He was not a member of the kg.

The kingsguard had their assignments before the sack of kings landing. So Aegon wasn't dead yet.

So it makes sense to send some kg to lead armies but not the COMMANDER of the kingsguard?

No member of the royal family had a kg as a personal protector. But lyanna did and somehow that makes her a member of the royal family?
11/22/12 1:19 PM
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DW
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I think Rhaegar was more concerned with the PtWP phrophecy than his actual relationship with Lyanna.  The kingsguard were at the TOJ to protect and account for Jon, not her IMO.

11/22/12 1:30 PM
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War Potato
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Time to sub! Phone Post
11/22/12 1:38 PM
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HayemakeredByHaye
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Adventure Runner - "Robert was there at the tourney, when R crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. It is blatantly obvious that Robert was madly in love with Lyanna, and this must've made him boil. Then, Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar and Robert, in his endless arrogance and jealousy, assumes that she has been kidnapped despite much evidence to the contrary (because there's just no way that a woman *wouldn't* want Robert Barratheon, amirite?!). Robert then goes on a revenge/hate mission to kill Rhaegar with Ned's naive, honor-bound help, inadvertantly starting a whole war in the process."

Lyanna was a noble daughter of one of the great houses on the 7 Kingdoms. She goes NOWHERE without the say-so of her father and liege-lord. She can't just elope. Her father must arrange a marriage for her. Robert is not who started this war.

This war started when Ned's brother rushed to King's Landing rightfully demanding the return of his sister and for Rhaegar to come out and die. He was arrested and Ned's father was summoned to King's Landing to answer for his son's crimes. He ended up demanding trial by combat, and he was burned alive since Aerys said the Targ champion is fire. Ned's bro was put in a strangulation device, forced to watch, and strangled himself in the process of trying to save his dad.

Then Aerys demands the heads of Robert and Ned. It was only THEN than Jon Arryn raised his banners in defiance, and the North and Storm Lands raised theirs as well. Robert may have led one of the hosts and was ultimately crowned king because he had the best claim to the throne, but it's not like Lyanna was kidnapped, so Robert started a war. That's not what happened at all.

Exactamundo.

Rhaegar is the ladies favourite. Handsome, tortured soul etc.

Might have ultimately did what he did becasue he thought he would save mankind, but if he thought he needed Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy he was taking her. Regardless of what she or anybody else wants.
11/22/12 2:21 PM
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MickColins
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"Personally I think Dayne, Hightower and Whent were protecting Jon/Lyanna. ."

 

Here's another thing, Rhaegar thought that Aegon was the prince that was promised. Why didn't he have 3 guys protecting that kid at all times? Why have three guys stuck out in the middle of nowhere unless they are there not only to keep people out but to keep people in? 

11/22/12 2:42 PM
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Zenoplata
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Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - 

Selmy and the other Kingsguard were leading hosts in an effort to protect the royal family. They don't necessarily need to be personal bodyguards, but their actions are intended to protect the royal family nonetheless.

Think about it; there is a giant army sitting outside waiting to attack Kings Landing, so sending one of the KG in an effort to lead an army to stop them makes sense.

Personally I think Dayne, Hightower and Whent were protecting Jon/Lyanna. One of the other Kingsguard was already with Viserys, but with Rhaegar dead his son would be more important than Viserys as he would be the direct decendant and next in line.

Also, if Aegon really is Aegon they thought he was dead. What's more likely is that Aegon is not really Aegon, however.


darry was the knight who was with viserys and daenerys. He was not a member of the kg.

The kingsguard had their assignments before the sack of kings landing. So Aegon wasn't dead yet.

So it makes sense to send some kg to lead armies but not the COMMANDER of the kingsguard?

No member of the royal family had a kg as a personal protector. But lyanna did and somehow that makes her a member of the royal family?

You could make the case that Jaime was suppose to protect Aerys both physically and because of who he was which would deter Tywinn from attacking - so Aerys obviously had a KG physically there to protect him.

Willem was Jonothor Darry's brother. He was the one with Viserys and Danaerys. Jonothor, Selmy and Lewyn Martell were all present at the Battle of the Trident. We know for a fact Selmy and Martell were commanding other hosts, but we're not so sure about Jonothor Darry - it's quite possible he was attempting to protect Rhaegar when he died. And you can make that case that by leading the other hosts in an attempt to fight off Robert's army they were indirectly protecting him.

Willem taking Danaerys and Viserys is very similar to how we saw Garlan protecting Tommen when all of the KG were forced to be in one place under Jaime. We know that when circumstances like this happen the KG will pick a very capable and close knight to protect the royalty. Willem was apparently Jonothor's brother, Garlan is Loras' brother.

This being true, it is very plausible that the rest of the KG was suppose to be protecting Rhaegar's only surviving son. I question when Gregor killed the rest of Rhaegar's family, I'm not certain how the timeline is suppose to play out. It could be plausible that Jaime was intended to protect both Aerys and Elia but obviously gave a fuck less about both - other than Dayne I think he was considered the most formidable knight in the land.

11/22/12 2:44 PM
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NeoSpartan
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I think evie is the closest... the part about Ned & Robert 'playing knights in armor' and unwittingly embroiling themselves in the game of thrones (notably between Aerys, Joanna, Tywin, Varys/Illyrio (if they are blackfyres), etc) is beautiful and exactly what I think GRRM was going for


I have a question,

When did we find out Elia Martell couldn't have anymore kids?


The way I see it (if this was well after the fact)

(i) Rhaegar lets Elia know that ok you can't have more kids but we need one more to fulfill the prophecy. Because paramours are ok with the Dornish she says ok pipe another babe. This keeps Rhaegar's honor in check. No one ever understands prophecies anyway so I don't think Rhaegar realizes the song of ice and fire is about his child with Lyanna.

(ii) R+L hook up after he crowns her the queen of love and beauty. Ned knows but being Ned is pretty naive therefore doesn't KNOW. Lyanna is as impetuous as Arya and if you think ANYTHING could stop arya from doing what (or who) she wants then I think you missed the pt of the character.

(iii) BECAUSE she (Lyanna) is so honor bound they keep it a secret. Finds out she's preggo and about to pop. He "kidnaps her" when really he just wants to keep the pregnancy underwraps.

(iv) Robert Baratheon overreacts. Ned's big bro over the fuck reacts. Ned's pop & bro get killed. Boom, war. Something else on Rhaegar's plate so he goes to handle that shit.

(v) Rhaegar gets killed, his wife and kid get killed, His dad is about to get murked by Jamie. Varys seizes his opportunity. Ned & Howland are keen on getting his sister back when he find out the whole deal about r+l= j and she makes him promise not to let Baratheon know about it.

All of the above explains why Ned brought his bastard to court unlike everyone else I can think of. Cersei and his wife (cate) both had internal monologues about the uncommon nature of jon snow's existence around the castle.

Robert Baratheon didn't even remember which chick his best buddy ned hooked up with. He never saw her, didn't know shit about the bastard, didn't even know Ned fucked some whore!

Catelyn's biggest problem with having a bastard was NOT that he existed most guys had plenty of bastards and she accepted that as a part of life/war. Her problem was that he was in the court and she had to see him everyfuckingday.

She spent quite a bit of time in her inner monologues trying to figure out why Ned would do that to her. Why shame her? Her only conclusion was that he REALLY must have loved whatever kitchen whore he banged while out playing knight. When the only other women anyone even remotely thinks that Ned loved was his sister.

11/22/12 2:52 PM
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MickColins
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Edited: 11/22/12 2:54 PM
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"the part about Ned & Robert 'playing knights in armor' and unwittingly embroiling themselves in the game of thrones (notably between Aerys, Joanna, Tywin, Varys/Illyrio (if they are blackfyres), etc) is beautiful and exactly what I think GRRM was going for"

 

Ned and Robert had a death sentence passed on them after the two Starks were killed. Jon Arryn was told to deliver them to the Mad King. Arryn refused and called his banners in to protect the Eeyrie and thats how it started. Ned and Robert didn't start shit. It all started because Rhaegar disapeared with Lyanna and the Mad King killed the two Starks when they called him out on it. Ned and Robert did not land on plymouth rock, plymouth rock landed on them.

 

And Catleyn was a bitch for how she treated Jon Snow. There really is no good argument to why she was so cruel to him. He's the (potentially) son of her husband. At the least, she should show him respect because he is her husband's blood. I was never a fan of her character because of this.

 

From what I've read, Elia Martell took a long time to recover from having her second kid and Maesters said she may not survive a third pregnancy.

11/22/12 3:03 PM
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NeoSpartan
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Ah ok I'm really fuzzy on a lot of details. I also read the entire series on my kindle so I'm not going to try and flip back and forth for pages which I have no kinaesthetic memory.

And I would vote you up for just this line,


"Ned and Robert did not land on plymouth rock, plymouth rock landed on them."
11/22/12 3:13 PM
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Zenoplata
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Catelyn sucks. She's my least favorite character. I would've been happy about the Red Wedding if it were just her and her retard bro getting butchered.

11/22/12 3:32 PM
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PhillyFights
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These books/shows have converted me to geek.... with the quickness

Here's a Q & A with George RR, where he reads at the the end a chapter from the new book. The one thats not out yet.  A Victarian chapter. It start around 31 minutes, but if you really are into the series, the whole thing is worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=QlJblxV3QHQ&feature=endscreen

11/22/12 3:33 PM
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shootfighterbull
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I too hated Cat just because of how she treated Jon. Phone Post
11/22/12 3:42 PM
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PhillyFights
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Edited: 11/22/12 3:46 PM
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NeoSpartan - Ah ok I'm really fuzzy on a lot of details. I also read the entire series on my kindle so I'm not going to try and flip back and forth for pages which I have no kinaesthetic memory.

And I would vote you up for just this line,


"Ned and Robert did not land on plymouth rock, plymouth rock landed on them."

 

lol (and I hardly ever do or say that) at the Plymouth rock line

Edit: I say that as a huge Malcolm X Autobiography fan...... or should I call him Malik el Shabaz?

 

11/22/12 3:54 PM
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PhillyFights
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HayemakeredByHaye - "Robert was there at the tourney, when R crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. It is blatantly obvious that Robert was madly in love with Lyanna, and this must've made him boil. Then, Lyanna elopes with Rhaegar and Robert, in his endless arrogance and jealousy, assumes that she has been kidnapped despite much evidence to the contrary (because there's just no way that a woman *wouldn't* want Robert Barratheon, amirite?!). Robert then goes on a revenge/hate mission to kill Rhaegar with Ned's naive, honor-bound help, inadvertantly starting a whole war in the process."


Sounds like Lyanna didnt make her true feelings clear enough to Robert or Rhaegar DID kidnap her. I think if either of them is likely to consider themselves irresistible or more importantly not care what Lyanna wanted itd unquestionably Rhaegar. Rhaegar was a man on a mission.

Didnt Barristan say That Robert was as chivalrous as any Knight could hope to be or soemthing along those lines?


One thing Im not clear on. Apparently Roberts uprising was based solely on Lyanna. Why did so many banners raise to support his  chase for pussy? I can understand Robert and Ned (b/c his family was burned) wanting to "usurp" the king, but why all the bannermen? They dont seem quite that loyal as the books go on.

"Roberts uprising" was all for some woman? 

11/22/12 4:11 PM
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PhillyFights
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HayemakeredByHaye - "Robert quite obviously loved Lyanna. He wouldn't have killed her kid/Ned's nephew. He also wouldn't have killed a kid. A big deal was made about the fact that he was willing to kill the potential Targ kid and that was only years and years after Lyanna had been killed. And he told Ned to call it off and regretted ordering it. And thats AFTER he believed a Targ killed his girl. I think its interesting how Rhaegar and Robert are percieved by fans. I look at Robert as a Shakespearian hero. He won but it was a pyrrhic victory and he lived an unhappy life because of it. Sure, he was a drunk and a shitty husbad but he kind of died when that war ended. Fans seem to love Rhaegar and, to me, he's a way shittier guy than Robert. He was an arrogant aristocrat who didn't give a shit about his actions ramifications and believed in dumb prophecies. He also abandoned his wife and kids. And he allowed his crazy father to roast the Starks. Guys like Berristan Selmy and Connington talk up how nifty Rhaegar was but they are hardly unbiased sources."

I am with you homey. Great stuff.
 

 

Voted up for using the word "pyrrhic"........ I love that word. It applies so much to these days and times

 

11/22/12 4:19 PM
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HayemakeredByHaye
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PhillyFights - 
HayemakeredByHaye - "Robert quite obviously loved Lyanna. He wouldn't have killed her kid/Ned's nephew. He also wouldn't have killed a kid. A big deal was made about the fact that he was willing to kill the potential Targ kid and that was only years and years after Lyanna had been killed. And he told Ned to call it off and regretted ordering it. And thats AFTER he believed a Targ killed his girl. I think its interesting how Rhaegar and Robert are percieved by fans. I look at Robert as a Shakespearian hero. He won but it was a pyrrhic victory and he lived an unhappy life because of it. Sure, he was a drunk and a shitty husbad but he kind of died when that war ended. Fans seem to love Rhaegar and, to me, he's a way shittier guy than Robert. He was an arrogant aristocrat who didn't give a shit about his actions ramifications and believed in dumb prophecies. He also abandoned his wife and kids. And he allowed his crazy father to roast the Starks. Guys like Berristan Selmy and Connington talk up how nifty Rhaegar was but they are hardly unbiased sources."

I am with you homey. Great stuff.
 

 

Voted up for using the word "pyrrhic"........ I love that word. It applies so much to these days and times

 


You owe Mick a vote up amigp. I was just quoting him
11/22/12 4:39 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - 

Selmy and the other Kingsguard were leading hosts in an effort to protect the royal family. They don't necessarily need to be personal bodyguards, but their actions are intended to protect the royal family nonetheless.

Think about it; there is a giant army sitting outside waiting to attack Kings Landing, so sending one of the KG in an effort to lead an army to stop them makes sense.

Personally I think Dayne, Hightower and Whent were protecting Jon/Lyanna. One of the other Kingsguard was already with Viserys, but with Rhaegar dead his son would be more important than Viserys as he would be the direct decendant and next in line.

Also, if Aegon really is Aegon they thought he was dead. What's more likely is that Aegon is not really Aegon, however.


darry was the knight who was with viserys and daenerys. He was not a member of the kg.

The kingsguard had their assignments before the sack of kings landing. So Aegon wasn't dead yet.

So it makes sense to send some kg to lead armies but not the COMMANDER of the kingsguard?

No member of the royal family had a kg as a personal protector. But lyanna did and somehow that makes her a member of the royal family?

You could make the case that Jaime was suppose to protect Aerys both physically and because of who he was which would deter Tywinn from attacking - so Aerys obviously had a KG physically there to protect him.

Willem was Jonothor Darry's brother. He was the one with Viserys and Danaerys. Jonothor, Selmy and Lewyn Martell were all present at the Battle of the Trident. We know for a fact Selmy and Martell were commanding other hosts, but we're not so sure about Jonothor Darry - it's quite possible he was attempting to protect Rhaegar when he died. And you can make that case that by leading the other hosts in an attempt to fight off Robert's army they were indirectly protecting him.

Willem taking Danaerys and Viserys is very similar to how we saw Garlan protecting Tommen when all of the KG were forced to be in one place under Jaime. We know that when circumstances like this happen the KG will pick a very capable and close knight to protect the royalty. Willem was apparently Jonothor's brother, Garlan is Loras' brother.

This being true, it is very plausible that the rest of the KG was suppose to be protecting Rhaegar's only surviving son. I question when Gregor killed the rest of Rhaegar's family, I'm not certain how the timeline is suppose to play out. It could be plausible that Jaime was intended to protect both Aerys and Elia but obviously gave a fuck less about both - other than Dayne I think he was considered the most formidable knight in the land.


The whole argument was that Lyanna must have been married to Rhaegar because she had Kingsguard guarding her, and that Kingsguard only guards royal family members.

Now you're saying Kingsguard only guard royal family members, except when they don't, but other capable and close knights still count. That's a bit of a stretch, I think.

The Commander of the Kingsguard, Gerold Hightower explicitly emphasized that Ser Willem was not a member of the KG in Ned's dream:

Ned: "Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you ight have sailed with them."

Whent: "Ser Wilem is a good man and true"

Hightower: "But not of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard does not flee."

It's not plausible that the rest of the KG was supposed to be protecting Rhaegar's only surviving son, because the king was still alive and veritably unprotected, the king's OTHER son (Viserys) was still alive and unprotected by KG, and the crown prince's actual acknowledged son (Aegon) was still alive and unprotected by KG.

The three at the tower of joy were obviously assigned to guard Lyanna before the battle of the trident. In his memory, Ned specifically said he looked for them at the trident, to which they responded "we were not there" and "woe to the usurper if we had been."

The only logical conclusion is that they were at the tower of joy during the battle of the trident, and through the sack of king's landing (they also reference that during their conversation). So it is not at all plausible that the "rest" of the KG was supposed to be protecting Rhaegar's only surviving son, when, at the time of their deployment, all members of the royal family were alive, and every member of the KG were alive as well.

FRAT: Lyanna was guarded because she had far greater significance than as a member of the royal family, and that she was guarded by three prominent members of the KG does not imply (nor does it conclusively disprove) she was married to Rhaegar.


11/22/12 4:45 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - 

Catelyn sucks. She's my least favorite character. I would've been happy about the Red Wedding if it were just her and her retard bro getting butchered.


Hey, we agree!

There's the part in AGoT when Jon was leaving Winterfell to join the Night's Watch and he was saying goodbye to Bran, and she says "it should have been you."

That was also (I think) the first time Jon remembers her directly addressing him by his name.

Glad she's dead. I'll be pissed if she also kills my favorite character (Jaime) or even Pod. Brienne is whatevs.
11/22/12 5:06 PM
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PhillyFights
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HayemakeredByHaye - 
PhillyFights - 
HayemakeredByHaye - "Robert quite obviously loved Lyanna. He wouldn't have killed her kid/Ned's nephew. He also wouldn't have killed a kid. A big deal was made about the fact that he was willing to kill the potential Targ kid and that was only years and years after Lyanna had been killed. And he told Ned to call it off and regretted ordering it. And thats AFTER he believed a Targ killed his girl. I think its interesting how Rhaegar and Robert are percieved by fans. I look at Robert as a Shakespearian hero. He won but it was a pyrrhic victory and he lived an unhappy life because of it. Sure, he was a drunk and a shitty husbad but he kind of died when that war ended. Fans seem to love Rhaegar and, to me, he's a way shittier guy than Robert. He was an arrogant aristocrat who didn't give a shit about his actions ramifications and believed in dumb prophecies. He also abandoned his wife and kids. And he allowed his crazy father to roast the Starks. Guys like Berristan Selmy and Connington talk up how nifty Rhaegar was but they are hardly unbiased sources."

I am with you homey. Great stuff.
 

 

Voted up for using the word "pyrrhic"........ I love that word. It applies so much to these days and times

 


You owe Mick a vote up amigp. I was just quoting him

Both voted up

11/22/12 6:17 PM
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Zenoplata
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I wasn't saying that Willem Darry was a member of the Kingsguard, I was saying that we have seen in the past that the Kingsguard will entrust their duties to to family members/close trusted and capable allies when the circumstances demand it.

Garlan protected Tommen when none of the other KG were able to, and also offered to stand vigil at Tywin's funeral I believe. So we know that when the time requires it, Garlan has stood in for his brother, so it might make sense that Willem would take over Jonothor's duties after he were slain at least briefly.

The Kingsguard are generally always with the Royal family and/or their heirs. Myrcelle brings the Kingsguard with her to Dorne, and they also go with Tommen while Joffrey is still alive. Selmy was dismissed from his service because we know he went hunting with Robert.

11/23/12 7:58 PM
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11/24/12 7:38 PM
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My mind is literally spinning at all of the different threads from the books. I've read them all over so many years though that it is already a task to keep things straight.

Great thread.

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