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11/30/12 3:09 PM
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Ari2
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Zenoplata - 

Ok, here's a theory we can discuss and it's implications.

Is Dawn - the sword that belongs to house Dayne also the sword formerly known as Lightbringer, which was said to have ended the Long Night.


that's my guess.

now, how about some theories on whose possession that sword is in.

and if it is in fact lightbringer, and its supposed to be wielded by Azor Ahai, and either Jon or Danny is AA, and the sword is continually passed to a Dayne, hows that gonna play out?

and moreover, who are Edrick Dayne's parents?
11/30/12 3:16 PM
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Ari2
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my opinion is that Ashara is his mother, and that potentially Ned Stark is the father, but that certainly he is named after Ned.
11/30/12 3:27 PM
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Mencken
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I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 

11/30/12 3:27 PM
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Zenoplata
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irishman84 - 
Zenoplata - 

Ok, here's a theory we can discuss and it's implications.

Is Dawn - the sword that belongs to house Dayne also the sword formerly known as Lightbringer, which was said to have ended the Long Night.


Is that Samwell's house's sword? Tarly's?

Well, Dawn is the house sword of Dayne and was used by Arthur Dayne also called the Morning Sword.

The Tarly house sword, wielded by Randyll Tarly is called Heartsbane.

Heartsbane is a two-handed greatsword.

 

11/30/12 3:28 PM
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Zenoplata
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Oh, I almost forgot - Dawn is not made of Valyrian steel. Heartsbane is.

From the ASOIAF wiki -

"

Dawn is the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne. It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star.[1] Its blade is as pale as milkglass.[2] The sword is not necessarily passed to the lord of the house, but to the knight considered most worthy to wield it, who is then called the Sword of the Morning.[3] The name of the Daynes' castle, Starfall, and their arms, featuring a white sword and falling star, both reference Dawn. The blade is said to be just as sharp as Valyrian steel.

Last known user of the sword is Arthur Dayne, who died in Tower of Joy. After the fight, Eddard Stark rode to Starfall to deliver Arthur's sword Dawn to Arthur's sister Ashara Dayne."

11/30/12 3:33 PM
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Zenoplata
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Mencken - 

I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 


Well the fact that Lightbringer and Dawn are similar in meaning.

Lightbringer brought an end to the Long Night. Dawn of course literally is the end of night.

I like the implications of this however, we know that Ashara was the last one with the sword and that she killed herself so its whereabouts are currently unknown but we can assume the sword is still with house Dayne.

Perhaps the name Darkstar is alluding to some sort of connection to the Others/The Great Other? It's unlikely I think since GRRM isn't always so obvious.

11/30/12 3:52 PM
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Ari2
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Zenoplata - 
Mencken - 

I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 


Well the fact that Lightbringer and Dawn are similar in meaning.

Lightbringer brought an end to the Long Night. Dawn of course literally is the end of night.

I like the implications of this however, we know that Ashara was the last one with the sword and that she killed herself so its whereabouts are currently unknown but we can assume the sword is still with house Dayne.

Perhaps the name Darkstar is alluding to some sort of connection to the Others/The Great Other? It's unlikely I think since GRRM isn't always so obvious.


no, we do not know she killed herself.

it assumed she threw herself off a tower, but her body was never recovered.

I believe she's the fake Septon with the C section scar who was traveling with Aegon and Jon Connington.
11/30/12 3:53 PM
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Ari2
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Mencken - 

I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 


what's the theoretical link b/w Jon and House Dayne?
11/30/12 3:56 PM
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Flyers179
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Zenoplata -
Mencken - 

I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 


Well the fact that Lightbringer and Dawn are similar in meaning.

Lightbringer brought an end to the Long Night. Dawn of course literally is the end of night.

I like the implications of this however, we know that Ashara was the last one with the sword and that she killed herself so its whereabouts are currently unknown but we can assume the sword is still with house Dayne.

Perhaps the name Darkstar is alluding to some sort of connection to the Others/The Great Other? It's unlikely I think since GRRM isn't always so obvious.

Yeah it's a fun idea (especially since Martin has explicitly stated that Dawn is the most badass sword in the Kingdoms history) but I think Dawn is its own sort of awesome.

I think Lightbringer will simply be Longclaw, since that is the blade Jon wields. Although if GRRM could bring Dawn into the story as Lightbringer in an interesting way I'd be pleased. Although at this point we've only been made aware of two Daynes using it and no one outside their bloodline. It is a fun idea though.

All this being said I want to see the introduction of more House Dayne/Dawn into the story. And as someone else mentioned Dawn is not a Valyrian blade but one made from a falling star.

RAWR!
Phone Post
11/30/12 3:56 PM
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Mencken
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But there are rich legends about the two swords being made, and they are not remotely the same, nor is there any overlap between the two.  Just because each legend doesn't preclude the other, it doesn't mean they refer to teh same sword.

Further, look at the purpose for the sword.  It is to fight against the Others.  The Wall is to defend against them.  The northmen hold the north and keep watch.  The Night's Watch is expressly in existence to fight the Others.  So with all of that, the sword that exists in order to kill them becomes the ancestral sword of the southernmost House? 

11/30/12 3:58 PM
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Mencken
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Ari2 - 
Mencken - 

I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 


what's the theoretical link b/w Jon and House Dayne?

That he is Ned and Ashara Dayne's bastard

11/30/12 4:02 PM
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Ari2
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gotcha.
11/30/12 4:05 PM
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CyborgRoyce
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Man you guys really need to chill about Azor Ahai. The worst thing GRRM could do is make that prophecy come true in the last two books. It would be way too cheesy, best to just drop it. 

11/30/12 5:37 PM
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TX_432
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Mencken -
Ari2 - 
Mencken - 

I don't buy that Dawn is Lightbringer.  There is literally nothing that suggests it, other than the theoretical link between Jon and House Dayne, and the fact that the Dawn and Lightbringer are unique swords.  Other than that, there isn't anything to suggest it 


what's the theoretical link b/w Jon and House Dayne?

That he is Ned and Ashara Dayne's bastard

I wouldn't be surprised if GM went that route. Too many people have figured the R+L theory. Phone Post
11/30/12 5:45 PM
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dizz
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Edited: 11/30/12 5:45 PM
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CyborgRoyce - 

Man you guys really need to chill about Azor Ahai. The worst thing GRRM could do is make that prophecy come true in the last two books. It would be way too cheesy, best to just drop it. 

 


It's coming true, brotha.

 

If there's a shotgun on the wall in the first act, it better be fired by the end of the play, you know what I mean?

 

11/30/12 5:54 PM
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Zenoplata
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Interesting, I never heard that theory about Ashara before Ari. Do you have any evidence? I'd love to read about it.

11/30/12 5:56 PM
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Zenoplata
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Do we know that House Dayne is of Valaryian decent? I know the Targs are. Is it possible Azor Azai was a Dayne?

11/30/12 6:00 PM
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Mencken
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Zenoplata - 

Interesting, I never heard that theory about Ashara before Ari. Do you have any evidence? I'd love to read about it.


Are you referring to my mention of Ashara and Ned?  It's pretty blatantly suggested early on.  It's who Cat thinks is Jon's mother.  Someone brings Ashara up to Ned and he tells that person to never mention her again. 

11/30/12 6:02 PM
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Mencken
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Zenoplata - 

Do we know that House Dayne is of Valaryian decent? I know the Targs are. Is it possible Azor Azai was a Dayne?


We don't know it, but I do think so, given that the Daynes have purple eyes too. 

11/30/12 6:02 PM
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dizz
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http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

11/30/12 6:26 PM
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dizz
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Kirkifan1 - how could jon be a targaryan if his hand gets burned when fighting the wight?

Targaryens are typically susceptible to fire. (Note how Viserys, a true Targaryen, died).

Dany just freakishly wasn't in a couple circumstances

11/30/12 6:27 PM
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Flyers179
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Mencken -
Zenoplata - 

Do we know that House Dayne is of Valaryian decent? I know the Targs are. Is it possible Azor Azai was a Dayne?


We don't know it, but I do think so, given that the Daynes have purple eyes too. 

I wanna say we are told at some point that they were? Or maybe I was just reading into the violet eyes bit. Phone Post
11/30/12 6:44 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Ari2 - 
Zenoplata - 

Ok, here's a theory we can discuss and it's implications.

Is Dawn - the sword that belongs to house Dayne also the sword formerly known as Lightbringer, which was said to have ended the Long Night.


that's my guess.

now, how about some theories on whose possession that sword is in.

and if it is in fact lightbringer, and its supposed to be wielded by Azor Ahai, and either Jon or Danny is AA, and the sword is continually passed to a Dayne, hows that gonna play out?

and moreover, who are Edrick Dayne's parents?

Edric Dayne's father was the (unnamed and now deceased) elder brother of Arthur, Ashara and Allyria. Allyria was formerly betrothed to Beric Dondarrion, for whom Edric was until recently a squire. Edric's mother is also (I think) still unnamed.

I find it unlikely that Edric is the son of Ashara and Ned since he is the current lord of Starfall. Edric's reputed father was the lord of Starfall before him, so even if that guy died without issue, lordship would have passed to Allyria and not the child of Ashara.

The only way Starfall passes to Edric if he was the child of Ashara and Ned is if the previous lord of Starfall died without any heirs and all the other Daynes of that generation died. Ashara and Arthur are presumed dead, but there's no indication that Allyria is.

Since Ashara and Ned were not married, Edric wouldn't be a Dayne anyway, and I doubt Starfall would pass to a bastard.

11/30/12 6:49 PM
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Ari2
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Interesting, I never heard that theory about Ashara before Ari. Do you have any evidence? I'd love to read about it.


simply that GRRM is careful with language and thus I believe since he didn't say she was dead, she's not.

and Septa Lemore has had a child, and its noted taht she is probably high born.

and Edrick Dayne;s parents are unknown, and he's probably named afte Ned, who Ashara was in love with.

it's speculative.
11/30/12 6:49 PM
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Ari2
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well, that shoots down my theory to some extent.

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