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5/6/13 12:03 PM
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Kakkarotto_san
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Varys is definitely a Blackfyre.
5/6/13 12:16 PM
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MickColins
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Here's the thing: If Varys and Illyrio had wanted Viserys to be king, he'd have been worse than Joffrey. He'd have been ten times worse than Robert. Were they hopeing that, with an army, Viserys would invade and be destroyed?

5/6/13 12:38 PM
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Zenoplata
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TheWhite - 
Kakkarotto_san - Varys is definitely a Blackfyre.

Why do you say that?  He's seemingly working with Illyrio, who greatly helped Dany and Viserys.  The Blackfyres rebelled against the normal Targs, so why would he help the normal Targs if he's part of the rebel branch?


Well it can be argued that their "help" got Viserys killed and also that they were hoping they'd be able to hatch the dragon eggs.

Danaerys got so powerful because she deferred from the plan.

But who knows, it's also been speculated they work for the Iron Bank.

5/6/13 12:45 PM
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Zenoplata
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There have been several attempts to take the dragons, though. It's possible they were the masterminds behind some of these.

There is also a missing dragon egg, it's believed this belongs to the Faceless Men and that Jaqen is currently in Oldtown trying to figure out the secret to hatching it.

5/6/13 1:10 PM
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kevsh
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Edited: 05/06/13 1:10 PM
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From everything I've seen there is very little being hidden about either Varys, Illyrio or Daenrys. The two men likely believed that with an army Viserys could take back the throne and they would be rewarded for their help.

Viserys death and Daenrys actions (wanting to free slaves rather than take the throne) couldn't have been predicted.

And if Illyrio really has other motivations, his "debts of affection", for example, is it not possible it's as simple as he has affection for Daenrys after hosting her and Viserys?

5/6/13 1:12 PM
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j-money
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Zenoplata - 

There have been several attempts to take the dragons, though. It's possible they were the masterminds behind some of these.

There is also a missing dragon egg, it's believed this belongs to the Faceless Men and that Jaqen is currently in Oldtown trying to figure out the secret to hatching it.


Where in the series was the missing egg mentioned? I miss/forget so much from the books.
5/6/13 2:08 PM
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TheRealJoker
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j-money -
Zenoplata - 

There have been several attempts to take the dragons, though. It's possible they were the masterminds behind some of these.

There is also a missing dragon egg, it's believed this belongs to the Faceless Men and that Jaqen is currently in Oldtown trying to figure out the secret to hatching it.


Where in the series was the missing egg mentioned? I miss/forget so much from the books.
Doesn't that come up in the Kinsmoot? Phone Post 3.0
5/6/13 2:08 PM
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TheRealJoker
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Kingsmoot* Phone Post 3.0
5/6/13 2:20 PM
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Zekolas
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I like the idea that Varys and Illyrio are Blackfyre. I think their original plan was to have Visery's attack during the civil war and he would be setup to fail.

The Dothraki could not lay siege to cities and facing a barbarian threat none of the kindoms would make an allance with them; so they would ride around pilliging the country but could never occupy it.

Then Aagon and the Golden company would land and save the day setting up Aagon as a hero and savior from the barbarian.

However I think their plan got fucked up when Visery got himself killed and Dany got her dragons and became powerful on her own.

The only problem with this is I do not think Aagon is a blackfyre as I do not think John Conninton would fall for this trick.

5/6/13 2:39 PM
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Zenoplata
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TheWhite - 

Well, everyone will want the dragons.  It just seems weird to me that they'd send all of the eggs off with her, in the hopes she can hatch them, but with nobody but an informant near her to take them. They couldn't have predicted that Drogo would die, and that she'd end up in cities where they could take the dragons.  If she got them hatched, they'd have to assume she'd still be surrounded by the khalasar. 

So she'd be pretty soundly protected, and getting at the dragons would have been very difficult.  Giving her the eggs to hatch makes sense to me, but only if  you want to strengthen her, not someone else


Yeah, I'm not sold on the idea of them being secret Blackfyres, my Illyrio is and Varys isn't or the other way around, or maybe Aegon really is a Targ I don't know. Could be they never actually expected the dragon eggs to hatch. Could also be they're Blackfyres that want to rejoin the family lines, or are secretly working to fulfill some prophecy, I think the door is wide open with those two. 

5/6/13 2:42 PM
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Zenoplata
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j-money - 
Zenoplata - 

There have been several attempts to take the dragons, though. It's possible they were the masterminds behind some of these.

There is also a missing dragon egg, it's believed this belongs to the Faceless Men and that Jaqen is currently in Oldtown trying to figure out the secret to hatching it.


Where in the series was the missing egg mentioned? I miss/forget so much from the books.

Euron claims that in his trips to Valyria he encountered a dragon egg but "tossed it into the sea."

Many people speculate this was just his payment to the Faceless Men in order to have Balon killed, which would coincide with the vision that the Ghost of High Garden has about a faceless man with a crow on its shoulder standing on a swaying bridge. (Balon apparently "fell" off of a windy bridge.) 

5/6/13 2:45 PM
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Zenoplata
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kevsh - 

From everything I've seen there is very little being hidden about either Varys, Illyrio or Daenrys. The two men likely believed that with an army Viserys could take back the throne and they would be rewarded for their help.

Viserys death and Daenrys actions (wanting to free slaves rather than take the throne) couldn't have been predicted.

And if Illyrio really has other motivations, his "debts of affection", for example, is it not possible it's as simple as he has affection for Daenrys after hosting her and Viserys?


Haha, you know GRRM better than that!

There are way too many little clues he's leaving about these guys pointing to something bigger, and we keep seeing more and more revealed about Varys as the books go on. He's introduced as one of the shadiest dudes and we come to love him eventually.

5/6/13 5:31 PM
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Hywel Teague
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About Varys, there is def something big coming soon re him that will directly impact Danerys. Remember the prophecy from that woman with the mask, "beware the perfumed seneschal". Unless it's someone we've not encounter yet all signs point to that being him Phone Post
5/6/13 5:34 PM
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Zenoplata
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Hywel Teague -  About Varys, there is def something big coming soon re him that will directly impact Danerys. Remember the prophecy from that woman with the mask, "beware the perfumed seneschal". Unless it's someone we've not encounter yet all signs point to that being him Phone Post

These are various people it may be;

 

  • Reznak mo Reznak - due to his position in Daenerys Targaryen's court and his penchant for wearing lots of perfume.
  • Varys - he held a similar position in the Westerosi royal court. He also wears heavy perfume.
  • The Selaesori Qhoran (Fragrant Steward), a trading cog.
  • Satin the steward to Jon Snow, who wears perfume.
  • Garth Tyrell is the Lord Seneschal of High Garden. Garth Tyrell, is a Tyrell (roses) and flatulent, both of which indicates a perfume of sorts.
5/6/13 5:52 PM
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Zenoplata
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This is the full line spoken by Quaithe..

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

 

The pale mare is the name of a disease that hits Meereen. The implications of this are obvious.

The Kraken and dark flame refer to Euron and Moqorro, Euron is of House Greyjoy (Kraken insignia) and Moqorro is a black dude that's a priest of the Lord of Light earning him the nickname "dark flame" by Euron's crew. Euron plans on controlling the dragons with his horn and Moqorro is attempting to solve the riddles of how to use the horn.

The lion and griffin most likely refer to Tyrion and Connington as they are now in cohoots. They are attempting to put Aegon on the throne, which obviously does not work in Dany's favor.

The sun's son is Quentyn Martell, the eldest son of the Lord of Sunspear. He attempted to steal Dany's dragons after his marriage proposal was rejected and ended up being burnt to death by Rhaegal. If Oberyn were still alive Danaerys would be shitting her internal organs out right now.

The mummer's dragon can have two meanings. Both refer to Aegon. One interpretation is that the mummer is Varys and Aegon is his chosen dragon, the other is that Aegon is a mummer's dragon because he is a fake dragon as in that he is a Blackfyre. Could mean one or the other or both.

She says "remember the Undying" because even though Drogon burnt them all, Pyat Pree is still alive, intent on coming after Dany and seems to be forced into helping Euron.

If Varys is the mummer referred to earlier, it seems odd that the prophecy would refer to him twice. I figured the perfumed seneschal could either be Littlefinger but no one else seems to think that, or just of the other people mentioned in the above post.

 

 

5/6/13 6:33 PM
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MickColins
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I think you mean Victarion and not Euron in some of that.

5/6/13 7:09 PM
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antifret
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Remember the undying could refer to Dany's visions in the House of the Undying as well right?
5/6/13 8:33 PM
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Zenoplata
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Yeah, it's Moqorro with Victarion, so I suppose it's more probable that it's him although it wouldn't surprise me if Euron pulled the old bate and switch.

And I suppose it could mean her visions from the House, could be either.

5/6/13 10:36 PM
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kevsh
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I don't see Varys being described as a "perfumed seneschal", mostly because he was not a seneschal, at least by popular definition.

It would more likely refer to a servant or guard of a royal home (or castle). Perhaps a Kingsguard? Perhaps a woman, or a feminine man ... or a Knight of Flowers.

Though Loras would be a stretch as it's tough to see how he would fit in here -- he was reportedly dead and even if not, why would Daenrys have to worry about Loras?
5/6/13 11:13 PM
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ItBurnsWheniOG
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kevsh - I don't see Varys being described as a "perfumed seneschal", mostly because he was not a seneschal, at least by popular definition.

It would more likely refer to a servant or guard of a royal home (or castle). Perhaps a Kingsguard? Perhaps a woman, or a feminine man ... or a Knight of Flowers.

Though Loras would be a stretch as it's tough to see how he would fit in here -- he was reportedly dead and even if not, why would Daenrys have to worry about Loras?
He was supposedly dying from the oil that got dumped on him but I feel like he is still going to be awake... Possibly getting healed to be the opponent who goes against Cersei's champion in trail by combat (this is of course if the hound doesn't come back). Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 12:00 AM
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NeoSpartan
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RE: Faceless men having an egg

soooooooooooooooooooooo what you're saying is...

Arya gets a dragon?



Arya + Aegon = SOIAF


#toldyouso
5/7/13 12:43 AM
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Keep if professional
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And what's the story with the mountain? He was supposedly executed and his skull sent to Dorne as punishment for raping and killing Elia, but how many 8 foot tall dudes are there running around westeros that Cersei has another one as her champion?
5/7/13 12:47 AM
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Zenoplata
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Keep if professional - And what's the story with the mountain? He was supposedly executed and his skull sent to Dorne as punishment for raping and killing Elia, but how many 8 foot tall dudes are there running around westeros that Cersei has another one as her champion?

Robert Strong is most likely the Mountain's reanimated body.

5/7/13 2:50 AM
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WallaWalla
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I just started reading the first book.... Quickly backs out of thread lol Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 3:48 AM
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Awesomo4000
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kevsh - I don't see Varys being described as a "perfumed seneschal", mostly because he was not a seneschal, at least by popular definition.

It would more likely refer to a servant or guard of a royal home (or castle). Perhaps a Kingsguard? Perhaps a woman, or a feminine man ... or a Knight of Flowers.

Though Loras would be a stretch as it's tough to see how he would fit in here -- he was reportedly dead and even if not, why would Daenrys have to worry about Loras?

Reznak mo Reznak IS the seneschal of Meereen, and he's often described as being perfumed and/or smelling sweet. I do not think GRRM could be any more clear as to who the perfumed seneschal is. This is supported (or at least not contradicted) by his strong support for Daenerys to marry Hizdahr, who tried to poison her almost immediately once they were wed. He was also the only member of her council that he retained once she left with Drogon. They were clearly working together, and thus Daenerys had reason to beware of him. The other "riddles" were pretty obvious too. Not everything is a red herring.


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