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6/18/13 10:47 PM
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Ari2
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Zenoplata - 
Ari2 - 
Zenoplata - Also Six or Seven generations?

If it -is- Rhaegar's son that is only 4 generations removed from Aegon V.

Egg was basically born just as the Blackfyre rebellion was squashed, so a Blackfyre of the same age would very possibly be only 4 generations removed, it's possible 3 even.

And again, I stress the point that there were female Blackfyres, and the Blackfyres -were- known to take part in incest. In fact there were more Blackfyres than just Bittersteel, Daemon and Shiera.

youre confused.

Bittersteel, Sheira Seastar, and Bloodraven are not Blackfyres.

They are Daemon Blackfyres half siblings. The 4 of them are the great bastards that Aegon IV legitimized, but only Daemon Blackfyres children and their descendants are Blackfyres.

you are correct though that Martin very clearly says only that the "male line" of Blackfyres was wiped out, certainly there are those descendended from a "female line"

Bittersteel at the very least took part in the Blackfyre rebellion, it is unknown whether or not Shiera did.

As far as line of succession? Yes, they follow Daemon's line, but I think Bittersteel certainly would be considered part of his brother's house.

Depends how you want to define a Blackfyre, I would use it as a way to describe not only Daemon's line, but any of Aegon IV's legitimized bastards. Of course most of them probably had nothing to do with Daemon's House.

Bittersteel's personal sigil incorporated aspects of the Black dragon meaning he thought of himself as part of House Blackfyre.


he took part in teh rebellion, you could say he was a Blackfyre in that he took Daemon side, but no, Bittersteel's children are not Blackfyres.

"I would use it as a way to describe not only Daemon's line, but any of Aegon IV's legitimized bastards."

except that you just made up that definition, nothign in the text supports it. And Bloodraven, one of the great bastards, killed Daemon Blackfyre, and his two sons, and imprisoned John the Fiddler.
6/18/13 10:50 PM
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Del tha Funkee Homosapien
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Zenoplata - I find that post highly faulty.

It's main line of logic follows the thought that Quathe's prophecies will be wrong.

He is anticipating the Kraken in those prophecies will be Victarion and that Victarion will not do anything to harm Dany and also that Moqorro won't either.

Which is silly - we haven't seen what they're going to do yet and what we HAVE seen from the next book is that Victarion is slaughtering Dany's troops.

So we should assume Quathe was wrong because the dude that wrote that post doesn't think Victarion will be a danger to Dany in the future, and thus destroys the legitimacy of the prophecies... which have already begun to come true (the pale mare.)

Aegon might truly be Rhaegar's son, but that is some very poor reasoning.

The Barristan Chapter shows victarions fleet saving them not killing them...well we havent gotten up to their interaction but victarion kills the slavers fleet
6/18/13 10:50 PM
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Ari2
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Daemon Blackfyre is a special case, because A)he was given the sword normally given to the king (blackfyre, frm which he took his name), and because unlike his 1/2 siblings, he's all Targaryen. His father (Aegon 4) had relations with the previous King's sister-wife, Daena Targaryen.

Bittersteel's mother is from House Bracken, and Bloodraven's mother is from House Blackwood. Which is interesting because the two of them had a rivalry, just like their mother's house's did and do. Seastar's mother I believe was from Lys.
6/18/13 10:52 PM
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Ari2
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http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers

that contains the Blackfyre line, and Bittersteel has no known descendants.
6/18/13 11:04 PM
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Zenoplata
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Yeah, House Blackfyre is different, that's just the way I've been using the term, as you pointed out incorrectly lol.

Anyways, the other bastards could also have married in to House Blackfyre. And like you said, we don't know of Bittersteel's kids if he has any, it's quite possible he did have children with Shiera.

Either way, I didn't know Daemon was full Blackfyre, that's a cool tidbit though.

I do have doubts about Aegon being a Blackfyre, I think it's more likely he is because of a few things and the way they're presented but I think the stuff with Jon Connington is certainly cause for hesitation, also the fact that we would have to make some assumption about Illyrio and Varys.

Quathe's prophecy being illegitimate seems like a very poor concern though. Victarion may very well kill off the slavers, then get pissed at Barristan or Dany for some reason and decide to kill them off... hell, the Kraken probably refers to Euron anyways - either way I don't see that as viable proof of Aegon being Aegon VI.

In my mind I'd probably give it like 75% Blackfyre 25% Aegon VI. Then again I was pretty much certain Jaqen was Syrio.
6/18/13 11:04 PM
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NeoSpartan
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What can you scholars tell me about the "Valar Morghulis" phrase?
6/18/13 11:09 PM
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Zenoplata
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I think it's interesting you brought up the Bracken-Blackwood rivalry.

I wonder if some of the Houses that supported the Blackfyres would be willing to support Aegon if did actually prove to be one. Walder Frey himself was actually at the wedding the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion occurred.

Probably my favorite part of that story was Duncan talking shit about the annoying little toddler.
6/18/13 11:12 PM
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GodSaveTheReem
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Zenoplata - There were not just male Blackfyres, Shireen was known to have sexual relations with Bittersteel and Bloodraven I believe.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that he looks like Rhaegar being undeniable proof that it's actually Rhaegars son. Nor should we assume that his son would certainly look exactly like him (Robb Stark.)

Keep in mind Aegon's mother was a Martell so he is going to have different features than Rhaegar to some degree. His eyes are described as being a different color than Rhaegar's, and his hair is dyed so we're not sure how close it is. Tyrion recognizes him as having the traits of a Targaeryan, I don't know whether or not he recognizes all of Rhaegar's traits - or if there is anything that distinguishes Rhaegar from other Targs, he was just thought to be exceptionally handsome, not exceptionally unique in any specific way.

Either way, it could be Varys and Illyrio taking advantage of a coincidence.

I think we can draw some parallels between Young Griff and John the Fiddler. The way they're described, the way they're brought back into Westeros - but more importantly it seems like Varys and Illyrio are taking much more care to not make the same mistakes as were made during the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion whether or not Aegon is Aegon VI or Aegon Blackfyre.

Young Griff and John the Fiddler are completely different I think, yeah Aegon is a bit brash and immature (he is only 15)...but The Fiddler came across as incompetent and too much of a believer in dreams. Aegon seems far more down to earth and sensible.
6/18/13 11:12 PM
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Zenoplata
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NeoSpartan - What can you scholars tell me about the "Valar Morghulis" phrase?

It's high Valyrian for "All men must die." It's typically followed by Valar Dohaeris or "All men must serve." in Essos.

It's the unofficial motto of the Faceless Men.

Not really magical, but when Arya speaks it at various points of the story it puts into motion certain events that lead her towards the Many-Faced-God.

Arya incorporates it into her prayer as well.

6/18/13 11:15 PM
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Zenoplata
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GodSaveTheReem - 
Zenoplata - There were not just male Blackfyres, Shireen was known to have sexual relations with Bittersteel and Bloodraven I believe.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that he looks like Rhaegar being undeniable proof that it's actually Rhaegars son. Nor should we assume that his son would certainly look exactly like him (Robb Stark.)

Keep in mind Aegon's mother was a Martell so he is going to have different features than Rhaegar to some degree. His eyes are described as being a different color than Rhaegar's, and his hair is dyed so we're not sure how close it is. Tyrion recognizes him as having the traits of a Targaeryan, I don't know whether or not he recognizes all of Rhaegar's traits - or if there is anything that distinguishes Rhaegar from other Targs, he was just thought to be exceptionally handsome, not exceptionally unique in any specific way.

Either way, it could be Varys and Illyrio taking advantage of a coincidence.

I think we can draw some parallels between Young Griff and John the Fiddler. The way they're described, the way they're brought back into Westeros - but more importantly it seems like Varys and Illyrio are taking much more care to not make the same mistakes as were made during the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion whether or not Aegon is Aegon VI or Aegon Blackfyre.

Young Griff and John the Fiddler are completely different I think, yeah Aegon is a bit brash and immature (he is only 15)...but The Fiddler came across as incompetent and too much of a believer in dreams. Aegon seems far more down to earth and sensible.

Yeah I'm not saying the characters are alike, I'm saying the way they've been presented has had some similarities. How they both die their hair, adopt other houses and personas, are raised and trained across the sea and then brought over through a conspiracy in order to overthrow the current regime.

It's not really proof of anything and could be a red herring, but it makes me wonder.
6/18/13 11:16 PM
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GodSaveTheReem
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Zenoplata - I think it's interesting you brought up the Bracken-Blackwood rivalry.

I wonder if some of the Houses that supported the Blackfyres would be willing to support Aegon if did actually prove to be one. Walder Frey himself was actually at the wedding the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion occurred.

Probably my favorite part of that story was Duncan talking shit about the annoying little toddler.

I felt bad for Lord Frey at that part, apparently he DID have a chin and wasn't a complete bitch. Too bad he had Walder as an heir...
6/18/13 11:17 PM
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NeoSpartan
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Zenoplata - 
NeoSpartan - What can you scholars tell me about the "Valar Morghulis" phrase?

It's high Valyrian for "All men must die." It's typically followed by Valar Dohaeris or "All men must serve." in Essos.

It's the unofficial motto of the Faceless Men.

Not really magical, but when Arya speaks it at various points of the story it puts into motion certain events that lead her towards the Many-Faced-God.

Arya incorporates it into her prayer as well.


So would i be a cock faggot if I got it worked into a tattoo?
6/18/13 11:21 PM
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GodSaveTheReem
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Zenoplata - 
GodSaveTheReem - 
Zenoplata - There were not just male Blackfyres, Shireen was known to have sexual relations with Bittersteel and Bloodraven I believe.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that he looks like Rhaegar being undeniable proof that it's actually Rhaegars son. Nor should we assume that his son would certainly look exactly like him (Robb Stark.)

Keep in mind Aegon's mother was a Martell so he is going to have different features than Rhaegar to some degree. His eyes are described as being a different color than Rhaegar's, and his hair is dyed so we're not sure how close it is. Tyrion recognizes him as having the traits of a Targaeryan, I don't know whether or not he recognizes all of Rhaegar's traits - or if there is anything that distinguishes Rhaegar from other Targs, he was just thought to be exceptionally handsome, not exceptionally unique in any specific way.

Either way, it could be Varys and Illyrio taking advantage of a coincidence.

I think we can draw some parallels between Young Griff and John the Fiddler. The way they're described, the way they're brought back into Westeros - but more importantly it seems like Varys and Illyrio are taking much more care to not make the same mistakes as were made during the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion whether or not Aegon is Aegon VI or Aegon Blackfyre.

Young Griff and John the Fiddler are completely different I think, yeah Aegon is a bit brash and immature (he is only 15)...but The Fiddler came across as incompetent and too much of a believer in dreams. Aegon seems far more down to earth and sensible.

Yeah I'm not saying the characters are alike, I'm saying the way they've been presented has had some similarities. How they both die their hair, adopt other houses and personas, are raised and trained across the sea and then brought over through a conspiracy in order to overthrow the current regime.

It's not really proof of anything and could be a red herring, but it makes me wonder.

Oh, i get it, sorry. In that case you are right, a lot of similarities. The one thing that does make me think that maybe Aegon is a Blackfyre is...why else would GRRM even make up such a big plot point? It takes place 100 years earlier and has little impact on the current world of Westoros. He then even goes on to write a whole series of short stories that all but revolve around it.
His emphasis on the rebellion happening is enough to make me think that maybe a blackfyre will emerge in the story.
6/18/13 11:23 PM
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GodSaveTheReem
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NeoSpartan - 
Zenoplata - 
NeoSpartan - What can you scholars tell me about the "Valar Morghulis" phrase?

It's high Valyrian for "All men must die." It's typically followed by Valar Dohaeris or "All men must serve." in Essos.

It's the unofficial motto of the Faceless Men.

Not really magical, but when Arya speaks it at various points of the story it puts into motion certain events that lead her towards the Many-Faced-God.

Arya incorporates it into her prayer as well.


So would i be a cock faggot if I got it worked into a tattoo?

I have Bender from Futurama tattooed on my ass, so no I would not judge you if you got that
6/18/13 11:29 PM
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Ari2
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GodSaveTheReem - 
Zenoplata - 
GodSaveTheReem - 
Zenoplata - There were not just male Blackfyres, Shireen was known to have sexual relations with Bittersteel and Bloodraven I believe.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that he looks like Rhaegar being undeniable proof that it's actually Rhaegars son. Nor should we assume that his son would certainly look exactly like him (Robb Stark.)

Keep in mind Aegon's mother was a Martell so he is going to have different features than Rhaegar to some degree. His eyes are described as being a different color than Rhaegar's, and his hair is dyed so we're not sure how close it is. Tyrion recognizes him as having the traits of a Targaeryan, I don't know whether or not he recognizes all of Rhaegar's traits - or if there is anything that distinguishes Rhaegar from other Targs, he was just thought to be exceptionally handsome, not exceptionally unique in any specific way.

Either way, it could be Varys and Illyrio taking advantage of a coincidence.

I think we can draw some parallels between Young Griff and John the Fiddler. The way they're described, the way they're brought back into Westeros - but more importantly it seems like Varys and Illyrio are taking much more care to not make the same mistakes as were made during the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion whether or not Aegon is Aegon VI or Aegon Blackfyre.

Young Griff and John the Fiddler are completely different I think, yeah Aegon is a bit brash and immature (he is only 15)...but The Fiddler came across as incompetent and too much of a believer in dreams. Aegon seems far more down to earth and sensible.

Yeah I'm not saying the characters are alike, I'm saying the way they've been presented has had some similarities. How they both die their hair, adopt other houses and personas, are raised and trained across the sea and then brought over through a conspiracy in order to overthrow the current regime.

It's not really proof of anything and could be a red herring, but it makes me wonder.

Oh, i get it, sorry. In that case you are right, a lot of similarities. The one thing that does make me think that maybe Aegon is a Blackfyre is...why else would GRRM even make up such a big plot point? It takes place 100 years earlier and has little impact on the current world of Westoros. He then even goes on to write a whole series of short stories that all but revolve around it.
His emphasis on the rebellion happening is enough to make me think that maybe a blackfyre will emerge in the story.

thats actually the most convincing argument I've heard yet. But to play devil's advocate, the stories are actually about Egg, the Blackfyre rebellion's aftershocks are just background for teh story. And Egg died at Summerhall, the day Rhaegar was born.
6/18/13 11:33 PM
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Zenoplata
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NeoSpartan - 
Zenoplata - 
NeoSpartan - What can you scholars tell me about the "Valar Morghulis" phrase?

It's high Valyrian for "All men must die." It's typically followed by Valar Dohaeris or "All men must serve." in Essos.

It's the unofficial motto of the Faceless Men.

Not really magical, but when Arya speaks it at various points of the story it puts into motion certain events that lead her towards the Many-Faced-God.

Arya incorporates it into her prayer as well.


So would i be a cock faggot if I got it worked into a tattoo?

No, just don't get a matching one that says "My Grandson is most certainly a sword-swallower."
6/18/13 11:35 PM
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jped
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Awesomo4000 - 
Del tha Funkee Homosapien - I personally believe Aegon to be a true targ and Rhaegars son. Varys had no reason to lie to a dying man (kevan) and making Aegon a blackfyre this late in the game is just a lame twist for GRRM.

I see Aegon, Jon, and Dany as the three heads

I'm also of the opinion that Aegon is really Rhaegar's son for the following reasons:

1) The kid-swapping has happened before (Theon with the miller's kids), so there's already a precedent.

2) It makes no sense that Jon Connington would willingly go into exile for 15 years for someone else's kid other than Rhaegar's. It's also dubious that he wouldn't be able to recognize his best friend's kid (if you argue that he was tricked).

3) If Aegon was from the line of Blackfyre, why wouldn't Jon just come out and say it to the GOLDEN COMPANY? From his POV we know that he wasn't certain how it would be received. If he really wanted their allegiance, why wouldn't he just come out and tell them Aegon was a Blackfyre, instead of a Targaryen?

4) GRRM has spent a considerable amount of time building up how clever Tyrion is. That Tyrion figured out Aegon's identity (against Connington's intention) lends more weight than just about anything else. Everyone else's reaction to when Tyrion figured it out just adds further support.

I don't really know what the support for him being a Blackfyre is, and either way, I don't think it's as strong, even circumstantially, as these four points (particularly the last).


couldnt have said it better
6/18/13 11:35 PM
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GodSaveTheReem
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Ari2 - 
GodSaveTheReem - 
Zenoplata - 
GodSaveTheReem - 
Zenoplata - There were not just male Blackfyres, Shireen was known to have sexual relations with Bittersteel and Bloodraven I believe.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that he looks like Rhaegar being undeniable proof that it's actually Rhaegars son. Nor should we assume that his son would certainly look exactly like him (Robb Stark.)

Keep in mind Aegon's mother was a Martell so he is going to have different features than Rhaegar to some degree. His eyes are described as being a different color than Rhaegar's, and his hair is dyed so we're not sure how close it is. Tyrion recognizes him as having the traits of a Targaeryan, I don't know whether or not he recognizes all of Rhaegar's traits - or if there is anything that distinguishes Rhaegar from other Targs, he was just thought to be exceptionally handsome, not exceptionally unique in any specific way.

Either way, it could be Varys and Illyrio taking advantage of a coincidence.

I think we can draw some parallels between Young Griff and John the Fiddler. The way they're described, the way they're brought back into Westeros - but more importantly it seems like Varys and Illyrio are taking much more care to not make the same mistakes as were made during the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion whether or not Aegon is Aegon VI or Aegon Blackfyre.

Young Griff and John the Fiddler are completely different I think, yeah Aegon is a bit brash and immature (he is only 15)...but The Fiddler came across as incompetent and too much of a believer in dreams. Aegon seems far more down to earth and sensible.

Yeah I'm not saying the characters are alike, I'm saying the way they've been presented has had some similarities. How they both die their hair, adopt other houses and personas, are raised and trained across the sea and then brought over through a conspiracy in order to overthrow the current regime.

It's not really proof of anything and could be a red herring, but it makes me wonder.

Oh, i get it, sorry. In that case you are right, a lot of similarities. The one thing that does make me think that maybe Aegon is a Blackfyre is...why else would GRRM even make up such a big plot point? It takes place 100 years earlier and has little impact on the current world of Westoros. He then even goes on to write a whole series of short stories that all but revolve around it.
His emphasis on the rebellion happening is enough to make me think that maybe a blackfyre will emerge in the story.

thats actually the most convincing argument I've heard yet. But to play devil's advocate, the stories are actually about Egg, the Blackfyre rebellion's aftershocks are just background for teh story. And Egg died at Summerhall, the day Rhaegar was born.

maybe the bitter sweet ending that GRRM talks about will be Aegon VI ruling westoros? and only we as the readers know? something along those lines?
6/19/13 7:08 AM
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Del tha Funkee Homosapien
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I also just think it would have been incredibly easy for Varys to switch baby Aegon out before the mountain got there. He's shown he knows the entire red keep like the back of his hand by helping tyrion move around with ease and he has hidden there undetected since tyrions escape.

Why is it so hard to believe that he was able to find another 1 year old babe with similar features and switch it before the mountain got there (and smashed the babies fucking head in) so afterwards it wouldn't have been possible to perfectly identify the children anyway
6/19/13 7:09 AM
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Del tha Funkee Homosapien
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And hasn't aegon washed out the dye from his hair and shown his true targ features by the time they arrive in westeros and he's pretty much a spitting image of rhaegar or close to it?
6/19/13 10:05 AM
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Zenoplata
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Del, I'm not saying that it's not plausible Aegon is truly Aegon, but there is also a ton of evidence that he's a Blackfyre;

Quaithe's prophecy, the story of the black and rusted dragon sign, the usage of the Golden Company and their intricate back-story seeming deliberate, the fact that in his speech to Kevan Varys never claims Aegon is a Targ - just qualified for the throne, questions about Illyrio's heritage and connection to Blackfyres.

It is possible Varys switched the boy out. It's also possible he's a Blackfyre.

I don't think that the fact that Aegon looks like Rhaegar is definitive proof of anything - Rhaegar is never described as having unique features other Targs don't have that would make him or his son much more identifiable. In fact GRRM very deliberately has multiple characters describe the differences in appearance between Rhaegar and Aegon - for instance Jon Connington mentions how Aegon's eyes are lighter than Rhaegar's while he looks at him.

6/19/13 10:18 AM
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Zenoplata
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Found this on reddit, some good analysis on some of the different talking points about Aegon although the author seemed to be leaning towards the Blackfyre side.

Also left out Quaithe's prophecy for some reason.
6/19/13 12:56 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - Del, I'm not saying that it's not plausible Aegon is truly Aegon, but there is also a ton of evidence that he's a Blackfyre;

Quaithe's prophecy, the story of the black and rusted dragon sign, the usage of the Golden Company and their intricate back-story seeming deliberate, the fact that in his speech to Kevan Varys never claims Aegon is a Targ - just qualified for the throne, questions about Illyrio's heritage and connection to Blackfyres.

It is possible Varys switched the boy out. It's also possible he's a Blackfyre.

I don't think that the fact that Aegon looks like Rhaegar is definitive proof of anything - Rhaegar is never described as having unique features other Targs don't have that would make him or his son much more identifiable. In fact GRRM very deliberately has multiple characters describe the differences in appearance between Rhaegar and Aegon - for instance Jon Connington mentions how Aegon's eyes are lighter than Rhaegar's while he looks at him.


I think we should look at what you're calling is evidence that he's a Blackfyre.

1) Quaithe's prophecy. I assume you're saying that Quaithe's advice to Daenerys not to trust the "mummer's dragon" implies that Aegon is himself an actor. While that is one interpretation, I think a much more likely (and obvious) interpretation is that the mummer refers to Varys (who was part of a mummer troupe in his youth). Aegon is clearly supported by Varys, and, under this interpretation, Quaithe straight up acknowledges Aegon is a dragon.

2) the story of the black and rusted dragon sign. I've already discussed this earlier, but again, the hacked off head never returned to the inn where it came from. It floated downriver and ended up on the Quiet Isle. If you're saying that's symbolism/foreshadowing, then it would only be accurate if whichever Blackfyre left Westeros was exiled, turned up somewhere else and stayed there forever. Just saying that it washed ashore doesn't mean it returned to where it's from.

3) the usage of the Golden Company. I've answered this in the past too, but here's some more counter evidence:

While traveling with Illyrio, Tyrion asks him:

"How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?"”

“Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home.

Illyrio then brushes away the objection by saying:
“Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon."

This was obviously well before Aegon was revealed as a true Targaryen to Golden Company. If you're going to look at the story of the sign with any amount of significance, you should at least consider this as overt foreshadowing. He's clearly establishing why the golden company would follow a Targaryen, and his logic applies just as well to Aegon.

4) Varys never claims Aegon is a Targ to Kevan while he's killing him. While true, what he DOES do is explicitly say the boy is Aegon. I think that's sufficient to establish his identity.

5) Questions about Illyrio's heritage and connection. I'm not sure what these questions are, but I don't think questions about Illyrio are evidence that Aegon is a Blackfyre.

Again, while you're certainly entitled to your interpretation, I really don't think there's a ton of evidence that Aegon is a Blackfyre, and any evidence there is seems to be sort of a stretch and circumstantial at best.
6/19/13 1:16 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - Also Six or Seven generations?

If it -is- Rhaegar's son that is only 4 generations removed from Aegon V.

Egg was basically born just as the Blackfyre rebellion was squashed, so a Blackfyre of the same age would very possibly be only 4 generations removed, it's possible 3 even.

And again, I stress the point that there were female Blackfyres, and the Blackfyres -were- known to take part in incest. In fact there were more Blackfyres than just Bittersteel, Daemon and Shiera.

Yes, 6 generations (I never suggested 7). Daemon Blackfyre was a half brother of Daeron II. Daeron II was the father of Maekar I. Maekar I was the father of Aegon (Egg). Aegon was the father of Jaehaerys II. Jaehaerys II was the father of Aerys II. Aerys II was the father of Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the father of Aegon.

Maekar I
Aegon
Jaehaerys
Aerys
Rhaegar
Aegon.

Not sure why you started counting from Aegon V, but Aegon VI is the 6th generation removed from Daemon Blackfyre (i.e., when the Blackfyre line branched off from Targaryen).

And so what if there might be descendants from the female Blackfyre line? Even if there are, they wouldn't be Blackfyres. They would be whatever male house the females marry into (or bastards). Stannis doesn't call himself Targaryen even though he's descended from a female Targ. No one would consider someone descended from a female Blackfyre as a Blackfyre. So what you're really saying is, Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender in addition to a Targaryen pretender.

At what point is this just too ridiculous to consider?
6/19/13 1:39 PM
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Zenoplata
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Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - Del, I'm not saying that it's not plausible Aegon is truly Aegon, but there is also a ton of evidence that he's a Blackfyre;

Quaithe's prophecy, the story of the black and rusted dragon sign, the usage of the Golden Company and their intricate back-story seeming deliberate, the fact that in his speech to Kevan Varys never claims Aegon is a Targ - just qualified for the throne, questions about Illyrio's heritage and connection to Blackfyres.

It is possible Varys switched the boy out. It's also possible he's a Blackfyre.

I don't think that the fact that Aegon looks like Rhaegar is definitive proof of anything - Rhaegar is never described as having unique features other Targs don't have that would make him or his son much more identifiable. In fact GRRM very deliberately has multiple characters describe the differences in appearance between Rhaegar and Aegon - for instance Jon Connington mentions how Aegon's eyes are lighter than Rhaegar's while he looks at him.


I think we should look at what you're calling is evidence that he's a Blackfyre.

1) Quaithe's prophecy. I assume you're saying that Quaithe's advice to Daenerys not to trust the "mummer's dragon" implies that Aegon is himself an actor. While that is one interpretation, I think a much more likely (and obvious) interpretation is that the mummer refers to Varys (who was part of a mummer troupe in his youth). Aegon is clearly supported by Varys, and, under this interpretation, Quaithe straight up acknowledges Aegon is a dragon.

2) the story of the black and rusted dragon sign. I've already discussed this earlier, but again, the hacked off head never returned to the inn where it came from. It floated downriver and ended up on the Quiet Isle. If you're saying that's symbolism/foreshadowing, then it would only be accurate if whichever Blackfyre left Westeros was exiled, turned up somewhere else and stayed there forever. Just saying that it washed ashore doesn't mean it returned to where it's from.

3) the usage of the Golden Company. I've answered this in the past too, but here's some more counter evidence:

While traveling with Illyrio, Tyrion asks him:

"How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?"”

“Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home.

Illyrio then brushes away the objection by saying:
“Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon."

This was obviously well before Aegon was revealed as a true Targaryen to Golden Company. If you're going to look at the story of the sign with any amount of significance, you should at least consider this as overt foreshadowing. He's clearly establishing why the golden company would follow a Targaryen, and his logic applies just as well to Aegon.

4) Varys never claims Aegon is a Targ to Kevan while he's killing him. While true, what he DOES do is explicitly say the boy is Aegon. I think that's sufficient to establish his identity.

5) Questions about Illyrio's heritage and connection. I'm not sure what these questions are, but I don't think questions about Illyrio are evidence that Aegon is a Blackfyre.

Again, while you're certainly entitled to your interpretation, I really don't think there's a ton of evidence that Aegon is a Blackfyre, and any evidence there is seems to be sort of a stretch and circumstantial at best.

1. Could be either.

2. I honestly think you're nitpicking at this way too much. I know it makes sense in your mind, but no.

3. Again, GRRM is intentionally indecisive with a lot of things. I don't think he's "clearly" doing anything, he's writing the book in a manner where there are multiple interpretations so he can surprise the reader.

4. It's obviously meant to make the reader and Kevan think of Aegon VI, again it could be interpreted the other way. Once more GRRM leaves the matter open to interpretation and more than one possibility.

5. Circumstantial evidence.

You have to keep in mind this isn't a real life murder mystery, this is a book written by a guy who fabricated the entire story in his mind and loves these kinds of twists. It's important to look at things from that perspective and ask, "Why would GRRM include the passage about the Clanking Dragon?" "Why is he so indirect when having Varys and other characters talk about Aegon?" "Why include so much backstory about the Blackfyre rebellion? Why so much mystery around where the sword is? Why build up the Golden Company in the novellas and Barristan and other's stories?"

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