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6/18/13 5:47 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Del tha Funkee Homosapien - I personally believe Aegon to be a true targ and Rhaegars son. Varys had no reason to lie to a dying man (kevan) and making Aegon a blackfyre this late in the game is just a lame twist for GRRM.

I see Aegon, Jon, and Dany as the three heads

I'm also of the opinion that Aegon is really Rhaegar's son for the following reasons:

1) The kid-swapping has happened before (Theon with the miller's kids), so there's already a precedent.

2) It makes no sense that Jon Connington would willingly go into exile for 15 years for someone else's kid other than Rhaegar's. It's also dubious that he wouldn't be able to recognize his best friend's kid (if you argue that he was tricked).

3) If Aegon was from the line of Blackfyre, why wouldn't Jon just come out and say it to the GOLDEN COMPANY? From his POV we know that he wasn't certain how it would be received. If he really wanted their allegiance, why wouldn't he just come out and tell them Aegon was a Blackfyre, instead of a Targaryen?

4) GRRM has spent a considerable amount of time building up how clever Tyrion is. That Tyrion figured out Aegon's identity (against Connington's intention) lends more weight than just about anything else. Everyone else's reaction to when Tyrion figured it out just adds further support.

I don't really know what the support for him being a Blackfyre is, and either way, I don't think it's as strong, even circumstantially, as these four points (particularly the last).

6/18/13 5:58 PM
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Veegoh
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Love this thread
6/18/13 6:12 PM
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Zenoplata
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The Blackfyres generally don't look much different from the other Targs with maybe only one or two different features depending on their mothers.

Why would Illyrio and Varys tell Jon Connington Aegon was actually a Blackfyre? The fact that the Golden Company -is- supporting Aegon is further proof that he is not a traditional Targ. It makes sense for them to pretend Aegon is Rhaegar's son because the "Prince that was promised" is suppose to come from Aegon V's line, so that might help garner more support for their cause.

Here is the post from reddit that best illustrates the theory.

"A Dance with Dragons sees the appearance of Aegon Targaryen, supposedly the surviving son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell. The young prince is about the right age and has Targaryen features, so his claim is generally accepted by those who hear it.

There's a reader-theory, though, that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre heir (and probably Illyrio's son) and not a Targaryen. Some evidence for this theory:

The Golden Company, a mercenary group founded by Blackfyre survivors with the express purpose of eventually seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, is supporting Aegon's claim.
Although we're told that the Blackfyre's "male line" has died out, the odd specificity of this statement combined with the physical description of Illyrio's late wife seems to imply that the female line survived.
The backstory of Robert's Rebellion suggests that Varys was feeding King Aerys's paranoia by claiming that Prince Rhaegar was attempting to organize lords to help depose him. This probably played a role in ensuring a violent transition of power, eventually eliminating (almost) the Targaryen line. If Varys is a Targ loyalist, this seems like a pretty bad move; as a Blackfyre supporter, though, his actions make perfect sense.

None of that is new, but yesterday I was rereading A Feast for Crows and found a passage that seems to foreshadow Aegon's appearance in ADwD, specifically supporting the Blackfyre angle. In Brienne 7, Septon Meribald explains the history of "The Old Inn:"

"...He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."
"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.
"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust."

Targaryens use a red dragon as their sigil; a black dragon is the sigil of house Blackfyre. After their defeat, the Blackfyres were diminished in number and forced across the narrow sea ("[he] hacked the [black dragon] to pieces, and cast them into the river"). Could this passage foreshadow the reappearance of a Blackfyre heir ("one of the dragon's heads") on Westeros's Western shore, whom - given the amount of time since Blackfyres were defeated - everyone takes for a Targaryen instead ("by that time it was red with rust")?"


Probably one of the most compelling pieces of evidence is the passage about the dragon sign. It's pretty clever symbolism imo.

People seem to be preoccupied with the fact that the Blackfyres are supposedly distinguishable from their Targaeryan counterparts. Think about Jon Snow or Gendry, if you weren't told they were bastards they would easily blend in with the rest of their kin. The Blackfyres were a group of children of Aegon IV that were legitimized on his deathbed to the point where he awarded Daemon the Targaeryan family sword - Blackfyre.

It's not like they were unpopular or ruffians or anything either - probably half of the great houses in Westeros supported the Blackfyres and many great knights of that era supported them; Yronwood, the Reynes of Castemere, Bracken, Costayne among others.

6/18/13 6:17 PM
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shootfighterbull
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GodSaveTheReem - I just finished the Dunk and Egg seriers, this isn't a theory, it is just weird to think that Rhaegar, Danny, Aegon (maybe), Jon (Maybe) Vicserus(sp?), Stannis, Renly, King Robert (Baratheon), Gendry and the Mad King ALL came from lil Egg. <br />I am starting to enjoy that series more because at least you know the main characters won't die halfway through.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Template:Targaryen_tree_now

this is a link to a family tree in which Egg starts it.
6/18/13 6:45 PM
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shootfighterbull
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A description of Illyrio's second wife:

Serra was the second wife of Illyrio Mopatis. She had blue eyes and golden hair streaked with silver.
6/18/13 6:58 PM
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theken206
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Delorian - 
DW -

If Bran ever gets his memory back of the push out the window, does he take out Jaime with his superwarg abilities?  Like make a bunch of ravens push him off of a cliff or tower?

Bran will forgive Jaime, Lady Stoneheart will not. Phone Post 3.0

agreed. I think that it will be simply inconsequential to Bran by/when he gets it back.
6/18/13 7:04 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - The Blackfyres generally don't look much different from the other Targs with maybe only one or two different features depending on their mothers.

Why would Illyrio and Varys tell Jon Connington Aegon was actually a Blackfyre? The fact that the Golden Company -is- supporting Aegon is further proof that he is not a traditional Targ. It makes sense for them to pretend Aegon is Rhaegar's son because the "Prince that was promised" is suppose to come from Aegon V's line, so that might help garner more support for their cause.

Here is the post from reddit that best illustrates the theory.

"A Dance with Dragons sees the appearance of Aegon Targaryen, supposedly the surviving son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell. The young prince is about the right age and has Targaryen features, so his claim is generally accepted by those who hear it.

There's a reader-theory, though, that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre heir (and probably Illyrio's son) and not a Targaryen. Some evidence for this theory:

The Golden Company, a mercenary group founded by Blackfyre survivors with the express purpose of eventually seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, is supporting Aegon's claim.
Although we're told that the Blackfyre's "male line" has died out, the odd specificity of this statement combined with the physical description of Illyrio's late wife seems to imply that the female line survived.
The backstory of Robert's Rebellion suggests that Varys was feeding King Aerys's paranoia by claiming that Prince Rhaegar was attempting to organize lords to help depose him. This probably played a role in ensuring a violent transition of power, eventually eliminating (almost) the Targaryen line. If Varys is a Targ loyalist, this seems like a pretty bad move; as a Blackfyre supporter, though, his actions make perfect sense.

None of that is new, but yesterday I was rereading A Feast for Crows and found a passage that seems to foreshadow Aegon's appearance in ADwD, specifically supporting the Blackfyre angle. In Brienne 7, Septon Meribald explains the history of "The Old Inn:"

"...He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."
"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.
"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust."

Targaryens use a red dragon as their sigil; a black dragon is the sigil of house Blackfyre. After their defeat, the Blackfyres were diminished in number and forced across the narrow sea ("[he] hacked the [black dragon] to pieces, and cast them into the river"). Could this passage foreshadow the reappearance of a Blackfyre heir ("one of the dragon's heads") on Westeros's Western shore, whom - given the amount of time since Blackfyres were defeated - everyone takes for a Targaryen instead ("by that time it was red with rust")?"


Probably one of the most compelling pieces of evidence is the passage about the dragon sign. It's pretty clever symbolism imo.

People seem to be preoccupied with the fact that the Blackfyres are supposedly distinguishable from their Targaeryan counterparts. Think about Jon Snow or Gendry, if you weren't told they were bastards they would easily blend in with the rest of their kin. The Blackfyres were a group of children of Aegon IV that were legitimized on his deathbed to the point where he awarded Daemon the Targaeryan family sword - Blackfyre.

It's not like they were unpopular or ruffians or anything either - probably half of the great houses in Westeros supported the Blackfyres and many great knights of that era supported them; Yronwood, the Reynes of Castemere, Bracken, Costayne among others.


I didn't mention his appearance relative to other Targaryens. I'm just saying, as Rhaegar's best friend, Jon Connington would be able to recognize Rhaegar's son.

The fact that the Golden Company is supporting him is further proof? Even though Jon explicitly announced to all the leaders in the Golden Company than he was Aegon, Rhaegar's kid? So you're saying all of the Golden Company knew he was a Blackfyre, EXCEPT Jon Connington, who led them? That makes sense to you? Everyone is in on this conspiracy except Jon, the re-anointed leader of the golden company?

A lot of women/men are described as having vaguely Targaryen features, or resemble actual Targaryens. Jorah's wife Lynesse is said to look like Daenerys. The wench in the brothel he was groping when he found Tyrion as well. Aurane Waters also resembles a Targaryen. Mero thinks he slept with Daenerys or a twin in a brothel. Illyrio's first wife had blue eyes and gold hair streaked with silver. That's not silver-white hair and purple eyes. There's nothing to suggest that she was a Targaryen, and that's the only posited option for an unknown descendant of the Blackfyre line.

The sign is interesting, but it seems like a red herring to me, and it doesn't outweigh the other factors. Also, you realize the head that was hacked off washed ashore on the Quiet Isle, not where the inn was, right? So it never "returned." It washed up somewhere and stayed there forever.
6/18/13 7:09 PM
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Awesomo4000
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I don't think anyone really mentioned the Blackfyres being distinguishable from Targaryens. I've always assumed they had the same physical characteristics.

I could be wrong, since I pop in and out of the thread, but if anyone did, I didn't see it.
6/18/13 7:26 PM
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Tedrow
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Sub Phone Post 3.0
6/18/13 7:42 PM
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Zenoplata
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shootfighterbull - 
GodSaveTheReem - I just finished the Dunk and Egg seriers, this isn't a theory, it is just weird to think that Rhaegar, Danny, Aegon (maybe), Jon (Maybe) Vicserus(sp?), Stannis, Renly, King Robert (Baratheon), Gendry and the Mad King ALL came from lil Egg. <br />I am starting to enjoy that series more because at least you know the main characters won't die halfway through.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Template:Targaryen_tree_now

this is a link to a family tree in which Egg starts it.

It's relevant because The Prince that Was Promises is suppose to be one of Egg's descendants.

That means Stannis, Aegon, Danaerys, Jon Snow, Tyrion, Gendry or a number of other people might be the Prince(ss) that was promised depending on if any other theories are correct/wrong.

6/18/13 7:52 PM
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Zenoplata
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The point is a Blackfyre is probably going to look at least somewhat like Rhaegar. The fact that you pointed out that a number of people claimed they've seen Danaerys' twin further illustrates this point.

And Jon Connington is NOT and was NEVER the leader of the Golden Company. He was the right hand next to Toyne and was then kicked out of the Golden Company. Harry Strickland took over as their commander. Jon Connington does not like Varys/Illyrio's plan and didn't want to go through with it, he only did it for the sake of Aegon. It is very possible Connington was kept out of the loop between Toyne, Varys, Illyrio and even Strickland. Strickland and Toyne are both descendants of Blackfyre supporters.

I'm not suggesting anyone in the Golden Company knows, I'm saying it would be poetic justice on Varys/Illyrio/GRRM's behalf.

6/18/13 8:23 PM
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Awesomo4000
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Zenoplata - The point is a Blackfyre is probably going to look at least somewhat like Rhaegar. The fact that you pointed out that a number of people claimed they've seen Danaerys' twin further illustrates this point.

And Jon Connington is NOT and was NEVER the leader of the Golden Company. He was the right hand next to Toyne and was then kicked out of the Golden Company. Harry Strickland took over as their commander. Jon Connington does not like Varys/Illyrio's plan and didn't want to go through with it, he only did it for the sake of Aegon. It is very possible Connington was kept out of the loop between Toyne, Varys, Illyrio and even Strickland. Strickland and Toyne are both descendants of Blackfyre supporters.

I'm not suggesting anyone in the Golden Company knows, I'm saying it would be poetic justice on Varys/Illyrio/GRRM's behalf.


Having Targaryen features and looking like Rhaegar's son is not the same. Connington almost certainly would have seen Aegon as a baby. Not all Targaryens look like Rhaegar, otherwise his appearance wouldn't be so fabled. Rhaegar was never described to look like any other previous Targaryen. That Jon Connington believes Aegon is Rhaegar's child is pretty strong evidence, imo.

The Blackfyres broke off from the main Targaryen line 6 generations before Rhaegar/Daenerys. Assuming a similar 6 generation line of Blackfyres - without Targaryen interbreeding - the chance that a random Blackfyre looking even remotely like Rhaegar is pretty small. Then couple that with the chance that he happens to be exactly the right age as Rhaegar's son would be...at what point is it just too remote a possibility to seriously consider?

Jon might not be their leader in name, but Homeless Harry Strickland defers to him in every decision, everyone accepts him back as an officer immediately, and when they land in Westeros, messages are sent under his name and his alone. I think it's fair to say he leads them, but you're right, he was not anointed their leader, as I thought.



6/18/13 9:33 PM
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GodSaveTheReem
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Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - The point is a Blackfyre is probably going to look at least somewhat like Rhaegar. The fact that you pointed out that a number of people claimed they've seen Danaerys' twin further illustrates this point.

And Jon Connington is NOT and was NEVER the leader of the Golden Company. He was the right hand next to Toyne and was then kicked out of the Golden Company. Harry Strickland took over as their commander. Jon Connington does not like Varys/Illyrio's plan and didn't want to go through with it, he only did it for the sake of Aegon. It is very possible Connington was kept out of the loop between Toyne, Varys, Illyrio and even Strickland. Strickland and Toyne are both descendants of Blackfyre supporters.

I'm not suggesting anyone in the Golden Company knows, I'm saying it would be poetic justice on Varys/Illyrio/GRRM's behalf.


Having Targaryen features and looking like Rhaegar's son is not the same. Connington almost certainly would have seen Aegon as a baby. Not all Targaryens look like Rhaegar, otherwise his appearance wouldn't be so fabled. Rhaegar was never described to look like any other previous Targaryen. That Jon Connington believes Aegon is Rhaegar's child is pretty strong evidence, imo.

The Blackfyres broke off from the main Targaryen line 6 generations before Rhaegar/Daenerys. Assuming a similar 6 generation line of Blackfyres - without Targaryen interbreeding - the chance that a random Blackfyre looking even remotely like Rhaegar is pretty small. Then couple that with the chance that he happens to be exactly the right age as Rhaegar's son would be...at what point is it just too remote a possibility to seriously consider?

Jon might not be their leader in name, but Homeless Harry Strickland defers to him in every decision, everyone accepts him back as an officer immediately, and when they land in Westeros, messages are sent under his name and his alone. I think it's fair to say he leads them, but you're right, he was not anointed their leader, as I thought.




Going off your point about 6 generations of Blackfyres without targ interbreeding...this would make Robert Baratheon a closer relative to Rhaegar than this supposed Aegon Blackfyre who is being played off as Rhaegar's son. Seeing as Robert and Rhaegar were NOTHING alike, it would be very difficult for several generations of Blackfyre breeding in the free cities to keep the Valyrian look.
Long story short, Aegon looks too much like Rhaegar for him to be anything other than his son.
6/18/13 9:56 PM
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theken206
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GodSaveTheReem - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - The point is a Blackfyre is probably going to look at least somewhat like Rhaegar. The fact that you pointed out that a number of people claimed they've seen Danaerys' twin further illustrates this point.

And Jon Connington is NOT and was NEVER the leader of the Golden Company. He was the right hand next to Toyne and was then kicked out of the Golden Company. Harry Strickland took over as their commander. Jon Connington does not like Varys/Illyrio's plan and didn't want to go through with it, he only did it for the sake of Aegon. It is very possible Connington was kept out of the loop between Toyne, Varys, Illyrio and even Strickland. Strickland and Toyne are both descendants of Blackfyre supporters.

I'm not suggesting anyone in the Golden Company knows, I'm saying it would be poetic justice on Varys/Illyrio/GRRM's behalf.


Having Targaryen features and looking like Rhaegar's son is not the same. Connington almost certainly would have seen Aegon as a baby. Not all Targaryens look like Rhaegar, otherwise his appearance wouldn't be so fabled. Rhaegar was never described to look like any other previous Targaryen. That Jon Connington believes Aegon is Rhaegar's child is pretty strong evidence, imo.

The Blackfyres broke off from the main Targaryen line 6 generations before Rhaegar/Daenerys. Assuming a similar 6 generation line of Blackfyres - without Targaryen interbreeding - the chance that a random Blackfyre looking even remotely like Rhaegar is pretty small. Then couple that with the chance that he happens to be exactly the right age as Rhaegar's son would be...at what point is it just too remote a possibility to seriously consider?

Jon might not be their leader in name, but Homeless Harry Strickland defers to him in every decision, everyone accepts him back as an officer immediately, and when they land in Westeros, messages are sent under his name and his alone. I think it's fair to say he leads them, but you're right, he was not anointed their leader, as I thought.




Going off your point about 6 generations of Blackfyres without targ interbreeding...this would make Robert Baratheon a closer relative to Rhaegar than this supposed Aegon Blackfyre who is being played off as Rhaegar's son. Seeing as Robert and Rhaegar were NOTHING alike, it would be very difficult for several generations of Blackfyre breeding in the free cities to keep the Valyrian look.
Long story short, Aegon looks too much like Rhaegar for him to be anything other than his son.

It is an interesting and viable point I give you that.

I still think the other most likely targs are Jon and Tyrion honestly though.
6/18/13 10:10 PM
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Zenoplata
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There were not just male Blackfyres, Shireen was known to have sexual relations with Bittersteel and Bloodraven I believe.

Anyways, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that he looks like Rhaegar being undeniable proof that it's actually Rhaegars son. Nor should we assume that his son would certainly look exactly like him (Robb Stark.)

Keep in mind Aegon's mother was a Martell so he is going to have different features than Rhaegar to some degree. His eyes are described as being a different color than Rhaegar's, and his hair is dyed so we're not sure how close it is. Tyrion recognizes him as having the traits of a Targaeryan, I don't know whether or not he recognizes all of Rhaegar's traits - or if there is anything that distinguishes Rhaegar from other Targs, he was just thought to be exceptionally handsome, not exceptionally unique in any specific way.

Either way, it could be Varys and Illyrio taking advantage of a coincidence.

I think we can draw some parallels between Young Griff and John the Fiddler. The way they're described, the way they're brought back into Westeros - but more importantly it seems like Varys and Illyrio are taking much more care to not make the same mistakes as were made during the 2nd Blackfyre rebellion whether or not Aegon is Aegon VI or Aegon Blackfyre.
6/18/13 10:18 PM
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pin909
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Jon Snow a Targaryen, mind bottling
6/18/13 10:21 PM
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Zenoplata
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Also Six or Seven generations?

If it -is- Rhaegar's son that is only 4 generations removed from Aegon V.

Egg was basically born just as the Blackfyre rebellion was squashed, so a Blackfyre of the same age would very possibly be only 4 generations removed, it's possible 3 even.

And again, I stress the point that there were female Blackfyres, and the Blackfyres -were- known to take part in incest. In fact there were more Blackfyres than just Bittersteel, Daemon and Shiera.
6/18/13 10:25 PM
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Del tha Funkee Homosapien
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FRAT but this is the best explanation of the Aegon being a true targ i've read.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69408-aegon-is-legitimate-its-obvious-right-long-op/page__hl__blackfyre
6/18/13 10:32 PM
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Ari2
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Zenoplata - Also Six or Seven generations?

If it -is- Rhaegar's son that is only 4 generations removed from Aegon V.

Egg was basically born just as the Blackfyre rebellion was squashed, so a Blackfyre of the same age would very possibly be only 4 generations removed, it's possible 3 even.

And again, I stress the point that there were female Blackfyres, and the Blackfyres -were- known to take part in incest. In fact there were more Blackfyres than just Bittersteel, Daemon and Shiera.

youre confused.

Bittersteel, Sheira Seastar, and Bloodraven are not Blackfyres.

They are Daemon Blackfyres half siblings. The 4 of them are the great bastards that Aegon IV legitimized, but only Daemon Blackfyres children and their descendants are Blackfyres.

you are correct though that Martin very clearly says only that the "male line" of Blackfyres was wiped out, certainly there are those descendended from a "female line"
6/18/13 10:36 PM
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Zenoplata
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I find that post highly faulty.

It's main line of logic follows the thought that Quathe's prophecies will be wrong.

He is anticipating the Kraken in those prophecies will be Victarion and that Victarion will not do anything to harm Dany and also that Moqorro won't either.

Which is silly - we haven't seen what they're going to do yet and what we HAVE seen from the next book is that Victarion is slaughtering Dany's troops.

So we should assume Quathe was wrong because the dude that wrote that post doesn't think Victarion will be a danger to Dany in the future, and thus destroys the legitimacy of the prophecies... which have already begun to come true (the pale mare.)

Aegon might truly be Rhaegar's son, but that is some very poor reasoning.
6/18/13 10:43 PM
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Zenoplata
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Ari2 - 
Zenoplata - Also Six or Seven generations?

If it -is- Rhaegar's son that is only 4 generations removed from Aegon V.

Egg was basically born just as the Blackfyre rebellion was squashed, so a Blackfyre of the same age would very possibly be only 4 generations removed, it's possible 3 even.

And again, I stress the point that there were female Blackfyres, and the Blackfyres -were- known to take part in incest. In fact there were more Blackfyres than just Bittersteel, Daemon and Shiera.

youre confused.

Bittersteel, Sheira Seastar, and Bloodraven are not Blackfyres.

They are Daemon Blackfyres half siblings. The 4 of them are the great bastards that Aegon IV legitimized, but only Daemon Blackfyres children and their descendants are Blackfyres.

you are correct though that Martin very clearly says only that the "male line" of Blackfyres was wiped out, certainly there are those descendended from a "female line"

Bittersteel at the very least took part in the Blackfyre rebellion, it is unknown whether or not Shiera did.

As far as line of succession? Yes, they follow Daemon's line, but I think Bittersteel certainly would be considered part of his brother's house.

Depends how you want to define a Blackfyre, I would use it as a way to describe not only Daemon's line, but any of Aegon IV's legitimized bastards. Of course most of them probably had nothing to do with Daemon's House.

Bittersteel's personal sigil incorporated aspects of the Black dragon meaning he thought of himself as part of House Blackfyre.

6/18/13 10:47 PM
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Ari2
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Zenoplata - 
Ari2 - 
Zenoplata - Also Six or Seven generations?

If it -is- Rhaegar's son that is only 4 generations removed from Aegon V.

Egg was basically born just as the Blackfyre rebellion was squashed, so a Blackfyre of the same age would very possibly be only 4 generations removed, it's possible 3 even.

And again, I stress the point that there were female Blackfyres, and the Blackfyres -were- known to take part in incest. In fact there were more Blackfyres than just Bittersteel, Daemon and Shiera.

youre confused.

Bittersteel, Sheira Seastar, and Bloodraven are not Blackfyres.

They are Daemon Blackfyres half siblings. The 4 of them are the great bastards that Aegon IV legitimized, but only Daemon Blackfyres children and their descendants are Blackfyres.

you are correct though that Martin very clearly says only that the "male line" of Blackfyres was wiped out, certainly there are those descendended from a "female line"

Bittersteel at the very least took part in the Blackfyre rebellion, it is unknown whether or not Shiera did.

As far as line of succession? Yes, they follow Daemon's line, but I think Bittersteel certainly would be considered part of his brother's house.

Depends how you want to define a Blackfyre, I would use it as a way to describe not only Daemon's line, but any of Aegon IV's legitimized bastards. Of course most of them probably had nothing to do with Daemon's House.

Bittersteel's personal sigil incorporated aspects of the Black dragon meaning he thought of himself as part of House Blackfyre.


he took part in teh rebellion, you could say he was a Blackfyre in that he took Daemon side, but no, Bittersteel's children are not Blackfyres.

"I would use it as a way to describe not only Daemon's line, but any of Aegon IV's legitimized bastards."

except that you just made up that definition, nothign in the text supports it. And Bloodraven, one of the great bastards, killed Daemon Blackfyre, and his two sons, and imprisoned John the Fiddler.
6/18/13 10:50 PM
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Del tha Funkee Homosapien
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Zenoplata - I find that post highly faulty.

It's main line of logic follows the thought that Quathe's prophecies will be wrong.

He is anticipating the Kraken in those prophecies will be Victarion and that Victarion will not do anything to harm Dany and also that Moqorro won't either.

Which is silly - we haven't seen what they're going to do yet and what we HAVE seen from the next book is that Victarion is slaughtering Dany's troops.

So we should assume Quathe was wrong because the dude that wrote that post doesn't think Victarion will be a danger to Dany in the future, and thus destroys the legitimacy of the prophecies... which have already begun to come true (the pale mare.)

Aegon might truly be Rhaegar's son, but that is some very poor reasoning.

The Barristan Chapter shows victarions fleet saving them not killing them...well we havent gotten up to their interaction but victarion kills the slavers fleet
6/18/13 10:50 PM
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Ari2
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Daemon Blackfyre is a special case, because A)he was given the sword normally given to the king (blackfyre, frm which he took his name), and because unlike his 1/2 siblings, he's all Targaryen. His father (Aegon 4) had relations with the previous King's sister-wife, Daena Targaryen.

Bittersteel's mother is from House Bracken, and Bloodraven's mother is from House Blackwood. Which is interesting because the two of them had a rivalry, just like their mother's house's did and do. Seastar's mother I believe was from Lys.
6/18/13 10:52 PM
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Ari2
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http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers

that contains the Blackfyre line, and Bittersteel has no known descendants.

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