UnderGround Forums
 

OtherGround Forums >> Song of Ice+Fire Fan Theories plead your case here


11/16/12 3:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9384
DW - 

Other random theory

 

The Red Viper had already poisoned Lord Tywin before Tyrion killed him.  Thats why he was on the Privy when Tyrion found him and why his corpse stank so badly.  Oberyn even hinted at it to Tyrion when he was still alive saying something like..."Tywin wont live forever"

 


I could see this.

Such a shame they killed off Oberyn so quickly. His death and Ned's death were the ones that made me the most angry.

11/16/12 3:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9385
Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - 
irishman84 - 
Zenoplata - 

Are you asking what the theories I posted are?

The most popular one is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaeryan and Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister. It is believed that when Ned recollects about how he and Howland Reed fought the remaining Kingsguard that they were trying to protect Rhaegar's son, Jon. It would make sense that with her dying breaths Lyanna would plead for Ned to raise the child as his own bastard in order to avoid Robert's wraith.


Didnt Raegar's son already show up? He was planning to meet up with Daenarys but then died or some shit. The imp was with him for a minute after escaping before his execution

Even if Aegon is really Aegon Jon could be a different son.

Aegon is most likely a Blackfyre, from a line of  bastard Targ's that have been trying to overthrow the Targs for centuries.


Don't understand why people keep insisting Aegon is "most likely" a Blackfyre. So, Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend, is just going to go into voluntary exile and raise some whelp that isn't even his best friend's kid? Unless you think somehow that Connington was wholly ignorant of Aegon's parentage. But then you use the Golden Company working for Aegon as evidence that he's a Blackfyre. So, everyone in the Golden Company knew Aegon was a Blackfyre, EXCEPT Connington, who led them for awhile? That makes sense to you?

The Blackfyre rebellion happened something like 110 years before the current events in the series take place.

There are a number of possibilities.

There may be others in the Golden Company that are keeping Connington in the dark.

The Golden Company themselves may not know.

Connington might just not give a shit and want vengeance upon the Lannister's/Baratheon's/whomever.

 

There is a pretty decent amount of evidence pointing to Aegon being a Blackfyre. The whole thing with the sign is epic.

11/16/12 3:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9386
LittleKang - 
DW -

Other random theory

 

The Red Viper had already poisoned Lord Tywin before Tyrion killed him.  Thats why he was on the Privy when Tyrion found him and why his corpse stank so badly.  Oberyn even hinted at it to Tyrion when he was still alive saying something like..."Tywin wont live forever"

 

Do we ever figure who poisoned Joffrey. Like we know it was because of Sansas necklace but of who got it into the glass?

They say poison is womens, cravens and eunnch's weapons.... Phone Post

Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns supposedly plotted it. We're never told who actually put the poison in his drink, I figured it might be Garlan.

11/16/12 3:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9387
Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


I agree with Syrio and Ned after reading the books. At first I thought Syrio could have been Ja'qen but I don't anymore. I think Syrio could have been an agent of someone else, but certainly not a faceless man.

There are little clues as to why people think Ned is still alive. Catelyn says that the bones sent back are far too small to be someone of Ned's stature. Arya describes how she barely recognizes her father before he is about to be executed. Sansa says that the head on the spike is grotesque and doesn't look like her father. Added in that Varys was the one to visit Ned and people think that it's possible Varys slipped him out and left a double. It would also explain why "Ned" was willing to admit Joffrey was the rightful heir.

Of course I don't really buy into this, but I can see where the basis of a theory could be.

11/16/12 3:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9388
shootfighterbull - 
Ari2 -
CyborgRoyce - 

I think Jon Snow will get excommunicated from the Night's Watch for his faults as commander, the wildlings will follow him and he'll have an army of his own. 

 

Also, Brienne is the daughter of Duncan the Tall


Duncan the Tall would have been older than Maester Aemon.

I don't think Brienne could be his daughter...but of the line perhaps
GRRM has stated that we've met a descendant of Sir Duncan. I think it'd be hilarious if it was the Gravedigger. His physical description matched that of Sandor, but only by chance. Phone Post

It's obviously Tyrion.

11/16/12 3:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9389
CyborgRoyce - 
shootfighterbull - 
Ari2 -
CyborgRoyce - 

I think Jon Snow will get excommunicated from the Night's Watch for his faults as commander, the wildlings will follow him and he'll have an army of his own. 

 

Also, Brienne is the daughter of Duncan the Tall


Duncan the Tall would have been older than Maester Aemon.

I don't think Brienne could be his daughter...but of the line perhaps
GRRM has stated that we've met a descendant of Sir Duncan. I think it'd be hilarious if it was the Gravedigger. His physical description matched that of Sandor, but only by chance. Phone Post

Lol, actually one of the candidates that people are speculating is Hodor, which would be hilarious but given his stature is plausible. 

Ser Duncan travels to Winterfell in his next journey (which is due out soon btw) and supposedly falls in love with a Northern girl as we see in one of Bran's flashbacks. This Northern girl may or may not be Old Nan, Hodor's great (great, great?) grandmother. Remember, Dunk the Lunk was also thick as a castle wall! 


I've always expected Hodor to turn out to be something more important than Bran's bitch.

11/16/12 3:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Awesomo4000
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/2/11
Posts: 24
Zenoplata - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Zenoplata - 
irishman84 - 
Zenoplata - 

Are you asking what the theories I posted are?

The most popular one is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaeryan and Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister. It is believed that when Ned recollects about how he and Howland Reed fought the remaining Kingsguard that they were trying to protect Rhaegar's son, Jon. It would make sense that with her dying breaths Lyanna would plead for Ned to raise the child as his own bastard in order to avoid Robert's wraith.


Didnt Raegar's son already show up? He was planning to meet up with Daenarys but then died or some shit. The imp was with him for a minute after escaping before his execution

Even if Aegon is really Aegon Jon could be a different son.

Aegon is most likely a Blackfyre, from a line of  bastard Targ's that have been trying to overthrow the Targs for centuries.


Don't understand why people keep insisting Aegon is "most likely" a Blackfyre. So, Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend, is just going to go into voluntary exile and raise some whelp that isn't even his best friend's kid? Unless you think somehow that Connington was wholly ignorant of Aegon's parentage. But then you use the Golden Company working for Aegon as evidence that he's a Blackfyre. So, everyone in the Golden Company knew Aegon was a Blackfyre, EXCEPT Connington, who led them for awhile? That makes sense to you?

The Blackfyre rebellion happened something like 110 years before the current events in the series take place.

There are a number of possibilities.

There may be others in the Golden Company that are keeping Connington in the dark.

The Golden Company themselves may not know.

Connington might just not give a shit and want vengeance upon the Lannister's/Baratheon's/whomever.

 

There is a pretty decent amount of evidence pointing to Aegon being a Blackfyre. The whole thing with the sign is epic.


None of those possibilities are plausible

1. Connington faked being exiled from the Golden Company to raise the kid, with only a few leaders of the Golden Company in on the plot. So the leaders of the Golden Company conspired with Connington to raise a kid in fake exile, but also conspired against him by faking the identity of the kid?

2. The Golden Company being on Aegon's side was cited as support that he's a Blackfyre. (although maybe not by you) So if they don't know, then that's not support. Which is it?

3. If Connington simply wanted vengeance on Lannister/Baratheon, why wouldn't he immediately lead the Golden Company over to help Daenerys? Why wouldn't he go over to his best friend's sister? Unless, of course, he had someone that was even closer to Rhaegar's line, like, you know, his son.

What other evidence points to Aegon being a Blackfyre? The sign is kind of vague imo, but if you think it's dispositive, that's fine. I'm just less certain of the other evidence that suggests he's a Blackfyre.
11/16/12 4:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mencken
679 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/02
Posts: 34474

Ned is dead.  Even if Varys did spirit him out of the dungeons, do you really think he'd stand idly by as his family and castle are being wiped out? 

11/16/12 4:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LittleKang
129 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/6/06
Posts: 3518
Reading through the website, the imagines dany saw at the house of the dying. Apparently she is to have three marriages, drogo of course, then the next sounds like a greyjoy followed jon snow Phone Post
11/16/12 4:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adventure Runner
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 1081
DW - 
Adventure Runner - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


Agree with the middle two. Ned is dead. Syrio is not Ja'qen.

The Hound is not dead, he's the gravedigger at the sept that Brienne goes through. His horse is seen in the stables, and the gravedigger's physical appearance matches the Hound exactly.

Dany could be Azor Ahai, but regardless who it is, I think it's extremely likely that Jon is still a Targaryen who, along with Aegon, will be the other two dragon riders.

The grave digger was a big dude. I wouldn't say that was exact.

A big dude who limped like he had a wound to his leg.  Who covered his face.  Who got along well with the dog at the Sept.  Who worked for a Septon who said he came across Sandor but states that 'The Hound" had died.

 


There is nothing imply he covered his face. The book said it was clear he was "lame" and there was a dog nearby that he pet. It was literally a few sentences.

----

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

---

Also the Septon states he buried his body...

----

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

----
11/16/12 4:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mencken
679 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/02
Posts: 34478

"She also sees a man (Rhaegar Targaryen) and overhears him talking to a woman nursing a baby (Elia Martell). "Aegon…What better name for a king…He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"; and when Rhaegar's eyes meet Dany’s, he says either to her or Elia, "There must be one more…The dragon has three heads", and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play."

 

Interesting. This could be telling Dany about Jon, and would suggest that Aegon is real.  So it'd be Dany, Aegon and Jon riding the dragons.  Just a thought

11/16/12 4:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mencken
679 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/02
Posts: 34479

Are they visions of the past or foretellings?  We don't know

11/16/12 4:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
CyborgRoyce
38 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/2/09
Posts: 2691

Seriously, what's with you guys and your obsession with riding dragons? 

11/16/12 4:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Awesomo4000
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/2/11
Posts: 25
Adventure Runner - 
DW - 
Adventure Runner - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


Agree with the middle two. Ned is dead. Syrio is not Ja'qen.

The Hound is not dead, he's the gravedigger at the sept that Brienne goes through. His horse is seen in the stables, and the gravedigger's physical appearance matches the Hound exactly.

Dany could be Azor Ahai, but regardless who it is, I think it's extremely likely that Jon is still a Targaryen who, along with Aegon, will be the other two dragon riders.

The grave digger was a big dude. I wouldn't say that was exact.

A big dude who limped like he had a wound to his leg.  Who covered his face.  Who got along well with the dog at the Sept.  Who worked for a Septon who said he came across Sandor but states that 'The Hound" had died.

 


There is nothing imply he covered his face. The book said it was clear he was "lame" and there was a dog nearby that he pet. It was literally a few sentences.

----

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

---

Also the Septon states he buried his body...

----

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

----

I don't have the books on me, so I had to google it from another forum, but these are the points that seem to indicate Sandor Clegane is not dead:

Regarding his face being covered:
When Brienne visits the Quiet Isle, she notes that the novices of the order are not only sworn to silence, but wear woolen scarves that hide their faces.

Regarding his relative size and present injuries and other characteristics:
While walking up the path to see Elder Brother, she notices a novice digging in the lichyard who is described as even larger than her and lame (IV: 463). When Dog goes up to him, he drops his spade and scratches the dog's ear (IV: 464). Later, during a meal, the novice is described moving with a half-lurching gait (IV: 467).

GRRM has previously stated that Sandor Clegane is taller than Brienne (SSM). As last seen in ASoS, he had taken a wound to his hip that became dangerously infected, recovery from which could very likely leave his movement in that leg impaired. And as he told Sansa in ACoK, he was fond of dogs (II: 211). These details all fit the large, limping, dog-loving novice.

Regarding Elder Brother's Statement:
Finally, when Brienne discusses Sandor Clegane with the Elder Brother, she dejectedly remarks that Sandor Clegane is dead, to which he responds, "He is at rest." (IV: 470) Later, he says, "the Hound is Dead".

Elder Brother's very specific phrasing, e.g., that Sandor Clegane is "at rest" but that "the Hound" is dead has been understood that Elder Brother is hiding the truth without outright lying. The novice who is trying to find peace on the Quiet Isle is Sandor, who has put aside the rage and hatred that made him the Hound, "killing" that part of his persona.
11/16/12 4:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jmac2007
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/24/11
Posts: 444
In Phone Post
11/16/12 4:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9390
Mencken - 

Are they visions of the past or foretellings?  We don't know


That was a vision of the past although there are prophecies during that part as well for instance she has visions of the Red Wedding and I think one of her son and Drogo if she didn't fuck them over.

11/16/12 5:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9391
HolyAvengerP5 - ok, again. the hound is fucking alive. he is the digger guy. it is as pointed out as it could be. if you have read the books and cannot understand this, then you should never read again.

Lol relax dude. Some people might not have been paying attention to all that detail or might think it's a red herring.

 

But yeah, I think he's still alive. Keep in mind the Elder Brother describes himself as having died before becoming one of the faith. I'm still not sure who he is, some people think it's Rhaegar but that's a bit crackpot. It's more likely he was some hedge knight or something fighting at the Trident and got smacked around real good.

11/16/12 5:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zenoplata
90 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/14/10
Posts: 9392

Depending on how things happen, if Cersei tries to dismantle the Faith of the Seven, I could see Sandor bucking up and fighting her champion - Robert Strong/ the Mountain. It'd be cool if he were the one to finally bring that fucker down.

11/16/12 5:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adventure Runner
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 1082
Awesomo4000 - 
Adventure Runner - 
DW - 
Adventure Runner - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


Agree with the middle two. Ned is dead. Syrio is not Ja'qen.

The Hound is not dead, he's the gravedigger at the sept that Brienne goes through. His horse is seen in the stables, and the gravedigger's physical appearance matches the Hound exactly.

Dany could be Azor Ahai, but regardless who it is, I think it's extremely likely that Jon is still a Targaryen who, along with Aegon, will be the other two dragon riders.

The grave digger was a big dude. I wouldn't say that was exact.

A big dude who limped like he had a wound to his leg.  Who covered his face.  Who got along well with the dog at the Sept.  Who worked for a Septon who said he came across Sandor but states that 'The Hound" had died.

 


There is nothing imply he covered his face. The book said it was clear he was "lame" and there was a dog nearby that he pet. It was literally a few sentences.

----

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

---

Also the Septon states he buried his body...

----

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

----

I don't have the books on me, so I had to google it from another forum, but these are the points that seem to indicate Sandor Clegane is not dead:

Regarding his face being covered:
When Brienne visits the Quiet Isle, she notes that the novices of the order are not only sworn to silence, but wear woolen scarves that hide their faces.

Regarding his relative size and present injuries and other characteristics:
While walking up the path to see Elder Brother, she notices a novice digging in the lichyard who is described as even larger than her and lame (IV: 463). When Dog goes up to him, he drops his spade and scratches the dog's ear (IV: 464). Later, during a meal, the novice is described moving with a half-lurching gait (IV: 467).

GRRM has previously stated that Sandor Clegane is taller than Brienne (SSM). As last seen in ASoS, he had taken a wound to his hip that became dangerously infected, recovery from which could very likely leave his movement in that leg impaired. And as he told Sansa in ACoK, he was fond of dogs (II: 211). These details all fit the large, limping, dog-loving novice.

Regarding Elder Brother's Statement:
Finally, when Brienne discusses Sandor Clegane with the Elder Brother, she dejectedly remarks that Sandor Clegane is dead, to which he responds, "He is at rest." (IV: 470) Later, he says, "the Hound is Dead".

Elder Brother's very specific phrasing, e.g., that Sandor Clegane is "at rest" but that "the Hound" is dead has been understood that Elder Brother is hiding the truth without outright lying. The novice who is trying to find peace on the Quiet Isle is Sandor, who has put aside the rage and hatred that made him the Hound, "killing" that part of his persona.

Good point about the face covering, but I take the rest with a grain of salt.

The dude has a limp... OK. No biggie to me. The dude pet a dog that went close to him? Yeah. I'd do the same thing as would 90% of men I know. That's a pretty common thing.

The Elder Brother legitimately, flat out says he buried his body and covered it with stones to carrion eaters couldn't dig up his grave. Could it be a cover up? Sure, but you can't try to cherry pick "the hound is dead" to mean anything greater when you ignore the rest. My $.02.
11/16/12 6:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
shootfighterbull
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/6/05
Posts: 25349
LittleKang - Reading through the website, the imagines dany saw at the house of the dying. Apparently she is to have three marriages, drogo of course, then the next sounds like a greyjoy followed jon snow Phone Post
She is in her second marriage already. Phone Post
11/16/12 6:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mencken
679 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/02
Posts: 34481
Zenoplata - 
Mencken - 

Are they visions of the past or foretellings?  We don't know


That was a vision of the past although there are prophecies during that part as well for instance she has visions of the Red Wedding and I think one of her son and Drogo if she didn't fuck them over.


The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

 

This suggests it's more than just a vision of the past, imo.  He's talking to Dany, telling her this. 

11/16/12 7:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Awesomo4000
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/2/11
Posts: 26
Adventure Runner - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Adventure Runner - 
DW - 
Adventure Runner - 
Awesomo4000 - 
Adventure Runner - I think a lot of this stuff are red herrings that Martin has thrown in to fuck with overly geeky people.

The Hound... dead.

Ned... dead (seriously don't know why people think otherwise)

Syrio is not Ja'quen.

Dany is Azor Ahai


Agree with the middle two. Ned is dead. Syrio is not Ja'qen.

The Hound is not dead, he's the gravedigger at the sept that Brienne goes through. His horse is seen in the stables, and the gravedigger's physical appearance matches the Hound exactly.

Dany could be Azor Ahai, but regardless who it is, I think it's extremely likely that Jon is still a Targaryen who, along with Aegon, will be the other two dragon riders.

The grave digger was a big dude. I wouldn't say that was exact.

A big dude who limped like he had a wound to his leg.  Who covered his face.  Who got along well with the dog at the Sept.  Who worked for a Septon who said he came across Sandor but states that 'The Hound" had died.

 


There is nothing imply he covered his face. The book said it was clear he was "lame" and there was a dog nearby that he pet. It was literally a few sentences.

----

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

---

Also the Septon states he buried his body...

----

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

----

I don't have the books on me, so I had to google it from another forum, but these are the points that seem to indicate Sandor Clegane is not dead:

Regarding his face being covered:
When Brienne visits the Quiet Isle, she notes that the novices of the order are not only sworn to silence, but wear woolen scarves that hide their faces.

Regarding his relative size and present injuries and other characteristics:
While walking up the path to see Elder Brother, she notices a novice digging in the lichyard who is described as even larger than her and lame (IV: 463). When Dog goes up to him, he drops his spade and scratches the dog's ear (IV: 464). Later, during a meal, the novice is described moving with a half-lurching gait (IV: 467).

GRRM has previously stated that Sandor Clegane is taller than Brienne (SSM). As last seen in ASoS, he had taken a wound to his hip that became dangerously infected, recovery from which could very likely leave his movement in that leg impaired. And as he told Sansa in ACoK, he was fond of dogs (II: 211). These details all fit the large, limping, dog-loving novice.

Regarding Elder Brother's Statement:
Finally, when Brienne discusses Sandor Clegane with the Elder Brother, she dejectedly remarks that Sandor Clegane is dead, to which he responds, "He is at rest." (IV: 470) Later, he says, "the Hound is Dead".

Elder Brother's very specific phrasing, e.g., that Sandor Clegane is "at rest" but that "the Hound" is dead has been understood that Elder Brother is hiding the truth without outright lying. The novice who is trying to find peace on the Quiet Isle is Sandor, who has put aside the rage and hatred that made him the Hound, "killing" that part of his persona.

Good point about the face covering, but I take the rest with a grain of salt.

The dude has a limp... OK. No biggie to me. The dude pet a dog that went close to him? Yeah. I'd do the same thing as would 90% of men I know. That's a pretty common thing.

The Elder Brother legitimately, flat out says he buried his body and covered it with stones to carrion eaters couldn't dig up his grave. Could it be a cover up? Sure, but you can't try to cherry pick "the hound is dead" to mean anything greater when you ignore the rest. My $.02.

If you re-read your quote, Elder Brother says he buried "him," and does not say, explicitly, that he buried the body of Clegane/Hound. Seems consistent (to me) that he means the Hound is buried, if not so much Clegane. He also covered "him" (his armor?) with stones, although he does mention flesh, so I can see your interpretation.

Still, the combination of the other pieces of evidence seems overwhelming. One or two of those pieces by themselves might be a random coincidence but given the presence of Clegane's horse and all of the other indicators put together (uncommon size, limp, affinity for dogs, non-committal response to Clegane being dead) seem to suggest that Sandor's alive. Being larger than Brienne seems not as common as having a limp and petting a dog, right?

Given that he likely has a motive for protecting Sandor's identity (as a novice of his order) and helping him put the past behind him makes the whole thing seem pretty cut and dry to me.
11/16/12 7:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Flyers179
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/16/12 7:20 PM
Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 1643
This thread grew exponentially today. And to those reading aren't finished with the books or haven't read them at all (a few of you have posted) STOP. Us discussing these theories does the story no justice at all.
11/16/12 7:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Evie
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/25/11
Posts: 642

I also think that Jon is the third dragon. So far, we know:

- Jon was brought to Winterfell under immense secrecy, when the Targs were going underground. Ned went to his grave claiming Jon was his offspring, despite every account saying that Ned Stark was too good to father a bastard. Why would a good, honest man be willing to accept such censure, to crush his wife, unless concealing the truth was more important than his own reputation? 

- The Lyanna/Rhaegar storyline is too bare, too skimmed-over for G.R.R.M., for nothing to develop from it. The secrecy of Jon's arrival plus the timing of Lyanna's death, combined with Honest Ned's unbelievable 'indiscretion', make me wonder what this is all leading up to? Jon is obviously not Ned's son, but he looks too 'Stark' to not be related. 

I feel like Melissandre will bring Jon back to life, but to a much better job of it than The Red Priest. It is said quite a few times that he wasn't a good priest, whereas Melissandre is about as devout as you can get. There is no doubt that she's far more powerful than him, so she could probably bring Jon back without him being all zombieish. I'm guessing he'll also be R'halor reborn, also. 

I also think that Jon will warg into Ghost for a time while he's 'dead', and will start to understand his power. Perhaps it is through Ghost, that Jon will learn about Bran's proximity to him. He could then travel to Bran who will be a superawesome Tree People hybrid person thing by then, and will learn how to be a warg. Melissandre would be with him and she'll like join up with the Children and do some magical type shit to defeat the White Walkers. 

Ahh, but I kind of have the feeling that Bran will be the third rider. He isn't being built up to be some super awesome omnipotent mental badass for nothing. Plus, it seems to follow the semi-romantic 'Aww, Bran wants to be a knight and save the world but can't, because he's crippled' storyline. Maybe he'll become *so* powerful, he'll warg ALL the dragons, hiding in some far-off corner of the world, to help Dany? 

This is all pure speculation, of course :p

11/16/12 7:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
homegrowncone
573 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/1/09
Posts: 1678

Speaking of Hodor what does Hodor mean and why is it all Walder can say?  Got to be a story there. Also why is a simpleton capable of compartmentalizing his mind when someone is warging him?  Again, there has to be more to this guy.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.