UnderGround Forums
 

S&C UnderGround >> Are S&C coaches REALLY needed for fighters?


11/15/12 11:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
None So Blind
249 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14733
vermonter - 
None So Blind - Quote that has stayed with me from my one (very) brief meeting with Isao Inokuma (former All Japan judo champ and Olympic gold in judo, trained Yasuhiro Yamashita who is arguably the greatest judoka of all time) after a seminar:

"There is no such thing as a weak champion."

I wasn't following the conversation (my Japanese sucks), but as it was translated to me, he meant that lifting and strength was necessary in his eyes to reach the top.

Thoughts?

I think everyone would agree that strength is important. General strength is critical for every athlete. Specific strength is as well, but the debates center around what qualifies as specific strength. Can you do it in the gym or not? My own answer isn't super popular, but there are people at both ends of the spectrum and at every point in between.

What was really amazing about it was that Inokuma said that he was considered something of a rebel in Japanese judo circles in the 70's and 80's for his advocacy of weight training - that's not too far back, and yet some people swore at that time that skill was the only necessary factor...wouldn't be surprising to me to hear that that particular view still had a grip on some folks even now.

Side note - I read in a book about Yamashita what his weight training was like - ye gods, it was things like dumbbell presses and flys, upright rows, and a few other odd things, although he did squat. The thought of Yamashita doing a proper lifting regimen by today's standards - ouch ;-)
11/15/12 11:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gokudamus stole my name
105 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 21419
"Boxers used to get by just fine back in the day on just running, groundwork, sparring, pads & bags."

Boxings energy demands are fairly straight forward. You really dont need more than the above unless you are rehabbing or trying to move up a weightclass. But MMA mixes the aerobic-alactic work of striking with wrestlings strength/lactic demands. Thats where it can get complicated and you need a good S&C coach at the higher levels

11/15/12 11:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11800
None So Blind - 
vermonter - 
None So Blind - Quote that has stayed with me from my one (very) brief meeting with Isao Inokuma (former All Japan judo champ and Olympic gold in judo, trained Yasuhiro Yamashita who is arguably the greatest judoka of all time) after a seminar:

"There is no such thing as a weak champion."

I wasn't following the conversation (my Japanese sucks), but as it was translated to me, he meant that lifting and strength was necessary in his eyes to reach the top.

Thoughts?

I think everyone would agree that strength is important. General strength is critical for every athlete. Specific strength is as well, but the debates center around what qualifies as specific strength. Can you do it in the gym or not? My own answer isn't super popular, but there are people at both ends of the spectrum and at every point in between.

What was really amazing about it was that Inokuma said that he was considered something of a rebel in Japanese judo circles in the 70's and 80's for his advocacy of weight training - that's not too far back, and yet some people swore at that time that skill was the only necessary factor...wouldn't be surprising to me to hear that that particular view still had a grip on some folks even now.

Side note - I read in a book about Yamashita what his weight training was like - ye gods, it was things like dumbbell presses and flys, upright rows, and a few other odd things, although he did squat. The thought of Yamashita doing a proper lifting regimen by today's standards - ouch ;-)

There are definitely various stances in every sport, especially older sports.
11/15/12 12:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tilla
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/12
Posts: 302
vermonter - 
Tilla - Pretty sure that's an old clip.

He said that will only be doing B/W exercises as weightlifting is bad on the joints.

It's OK saying "That 1%" but WORLD CHAMPIONS have become WORLD CHAMPIONS without using them. See what I mean?

I know this is a troll thread, but since CS is getting worked up, i'll chime in on this.

I sincerely doubt you know which world champions have had or have not had s&c coaches. I also sincerely doubt there is an existing world champion in MMA that has not done, and isn't currently a part of some kind of organized s&c. Furthermore, not even the best among us knows what some other coach's methods did to help or hinder an athlete, so any discussion of its merits to some other athlete is untenable. Sadly, for unprepaired coaches, it can be hard to tell what their methods are doing for the athletes that they themselves are training.

So i will say the following:

1. The athletes that i have personally worked with do better than if they hadn't worked with me, by my measurment, empirical evidence and their own reckoning.

2. Not every athlete needs a dedicated S&C coach to do well. However, many have a skill coach that functions in this regard, or they do it themselves. Again, Leigh (who is on this very thread) is an example of that. Leigh is essentially his own S&C coach and has been educating himself here and elsewhere for over a decade. And yet still, i think he'd say that he's learned a thing or two in working with me (I'll leave such judgements up to him), as I have certainly learned from working with him.

3. I you ever want to fight rather than troll, send me a message. I'd be happy to show you the merits of s&c.

Fedor? Other than grapple and Kickbox, he ran miles every day and did pull ups and crunches in school playgrounds.

He wasn't pulling prowlers, flipping tires, using an elevation mask... And he was undefeated for 10 years and is arguably the greatest fighter to ever live.
11/15/12 12:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11803
Tilla - 
vermonter - 
Tilla - Pretty sure that's an old clip.

He said that will only be doing B/W exercises as weightlifting is bad on the joints.

It's OK saying "That 1%" but WORLD CHAMPIONS have become WORLD CHAMPIONS without using them. See what I mean?

I know this is a troll thread, but since CS is getting worked up, i'll chime in on this.

I sincerely doubt you know which world champions have had or have not had s&c coaches. I also sincerely doubt there is an existing world champion in MMA that has not done, and isn't currently a part of some kind of organized s&c. Furthermore, not even the best among us knows what some other coach's methods did to help or hinder an athlete, so any discussion of its merits to some other athlete is untenable. Sadly, for unprepaired coaches, it can be hard to tell what their methods are doing for the athletes that they themselves are training.

So i will say the following:

1. The athletes that i have personally worked with do better than if they hadn't worked with me, by my measurment, empirical evidence and their own reckoning.

2. Not every athlete needs a dedicated S&C coach to do well. However, many have a skill coach that functions in this regard, or they do it themselves. Again, Leigh (who is on this very thread) is an example of that. Leigh is essentially his own S&C coach and has been educating himself here and elsewhere for over a decade. And yet still, i think he'd say that he's learned a thing or two in working with me (I'll leave such judgements up to him), as I have certainly learned from working with him.

3. I you ever want to fight rather than troll, send me a message. I'd be happy to show you the merits of s&c.

Fedor? Other than grapple and Kickbox, he ran miles every day and did pull ups and crunches in school playgrounds.

He wasn't pulling prowlers, flipping tires, using an elevation mask... And he was undefeated for 10 years and is arguably the greatest fighter to ever live.

Are you just going to throw out names of fighters you don't think have an organized s&c program, or work with strength coaches?

Like i said, it's a moot point. How do you know what a fighter does, how much, and to what benefit it has?

Anyway.... This vid took me all of two seconds to find. Fedor working with a coach, and there are flipping tires all over the video, and running chutes, etc....

11/15/12 12:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/15/12 12:40 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11804
Oh, and i know that was feeding the troll, but i guess the real answer is:

You listed exercises that fedor did for years that helped him become a champ. I know you understand that's what s&c is, and are trying to get a rise out of people, but at least don't list off an s&c regimin of a champion in a post where you are trying to ask about the importance of s&c...
11/15/12 1:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
None So Blind
249 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14734
Covers a lot of ground not relevant to this discussion, but around the 28:00 mark, it does discuss strength training for athletes, including MMA fighters.

The other stuff is highly useful in its own right, at 59 minutes it may be too much for the ADHD crowd, but it's worth watching IMHO.

http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/sss_jonathon_sullivan
11/18/12 1:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
william795
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/7/09
Posts: 306
You have to be physically strong, fast, and conditioned. Do you have to do this through lifting weights and pulling sleds? No.

Your skill training is THE most important thing.

If you are spending so much time lifting weights and conditioning that it's affecting your ability to put in time training your sport... Not good.

Marcelo Garcia has a very interesting outlook on this. Pushes himself so hard in training bjj an drilling that he doesn't have to spend time in the gym.

Training to punch hard and fast is going to make you punch harder and faster than kettle bells and deadlifts.
11/18/12 1:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
william795
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/7/09
Posts: 307
So many people get injured because they come in to train when they are sore and broken down from spending an hour going 100% on compound lifts.
11/18/12 10:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gusto
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34864
i see guys in the ufc that are strong as fuck, but they lack speed

gsp's timing and speed on his takedown are incredible. it is that bent knee speed (if that is even a thing). rogan talked about covering distance.

some other guys with that speed are tim kenneddy and aaron simpson (i think is the guy)

so many dudes get there take downs stuffed because it takes them so long to get in

if an S&C guy could help with that, i think he/she would be great



11/19/12 3:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
909 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 30745
Takedowns (and most other techniques) are more about skill and timing than speed.

Speed is very useful but I'm not convinced you can improve it much in the weight room. Phone Post
11/19/12 7:52 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11820
gusto - i see guys in the ufc that are strong as fuck, but they lack speed

gsp's timing and speed on his takedown are incredible. it is that bent knee speed (if that is even a thing). rogan talked about covering distance.

some other guys with that speed are tim kenneddy and aaron simpson (i think is the guy)

so many dudes get there take downs stuffed because it takes them so long to get in

if an S&C guy could help with that, i think he/she would be great




Sakuraba has got to be the fastest ever, or at least looked the fastest. His takedowns were insane.

But yeah i'm with leigh. Beyond GPP i'm pretty uncompelled that s&c work builds it much off the mat, but i think it's possible to do it on the mat with a properly designed program.
11/19/12 7:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
909 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 30746
Yep. The best speed improvements I've had with athletes are teaching them move faster using different techniques (eg jab differently). And these are guys who lift, do sprints, plyos etc.
11/19/12 8:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11827
Exactly. I think a good s&c coach working with a good technique coach can give great specific improvements to mat/ring/cage speed, strength, and so on. You really have to marry the two.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.