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11/20/12 2:23 AM
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The Cooler
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time traveling 12er - Guys talking about fighters getting cut after stepping up are looking at it the wrong way. You're looking at is as if their options are to take a fight on short notice, or wait for a better fight. But those fighters generally don't have that luxury and they're usually not in the position to pick and choose. The chance to step up may be the only alternative to getting cut in the near future without another fight.

Think about it like this, the guys on the fringe are like deep bench players in basketball or the NFL or whatever. The coach comes in and says "crap we got an injury! this is your chance... get in there!" Instead of running in there, the deep bench guy says "damn, I haven't stretched yet coach, also this team is a bad match up for me." and sits back down. Guess what? When that better opportunity comes up, you think the coach is going to think of you first? No, because you already probably got cut while waiting for a better opportunity. That's how dumb it is to turn down a fight if you're on the fringe or have a losing streak going.

Fighters have gotten spoiled by the recent success of the sport. Back when orgs could fold overnight everyone had to take whatever they could take because next week the whole thing could be gone. Now that the UFC has created some security they feel safe enough to pick an choose. I'm guessing anyone who wasn't already on the border of being cut is going to lose their job over losing a fight where they stepped up on short notice.

Your post is well reasoned but for one thing.

It isn't a team sport. The UFC isn't on your team. Your team consists of exactly one guy (plus trainers/corner/etc of course).

People have already listed plenty of fighters who stepped up on short notice and then were cut soon after.

So much for the team spirit.
11/20/12 2:26 AM
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SinCityHustler
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The Cooler - "It's Dana White's company, he can set the expectations how ever he sees fit."

Not if he wants to call it a legitimate sport instead of entertainment.

Dana is going to call it what ever he wants, even if it's a bold face lie.  Last I heard he said it isn't a main stream sport and that they are only scratching the surface, that this thing is going to be bigger than soccer.  It's his company, he can call it what ever he wants.   We both know that.  

11/20/12 2:32 AM
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SinCityHustler
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time traveling 12er - Guys talking about fighters getting cut after stepping up are looking at it the wrong way. You're looking at is as if their options are to take a fight on short notice, or wait for a better fight. But those fighters generally don't have that luxury and they're usually not in the position to pick and choose. The chance to step up may be the only alternative to getting cut in the near future without another fight.

Think about it like this, the guys on the fringe are like deep bench players in basketball or the NFL or whatever. The coach comes in and says "crap we got an injury! this is your chance... get in there!" Instead of running in there, the deep bench guy says "damn, I haven't stretched yet coach, also this team is a bad match up for me." and sits back down. Guess what? When that better opportunity comes up, you think the coach is going to think of you first? No, because you already probably got cut while waiting for a better opportunity. That's how dumb it is to turn down a fight if you're on the fringe or have a losing streak going.

Fighters have gotten spoiled by the recent success of the sport. Back when orgs could fold overnight everyone had to take whatever they could take because next week the whole thing could be gone. Now that the UFC has created some security they feel safe enough to pick an choose. I'm guessing anyone who wasn't already on the border of being cut is going to lose their job over losing a fight where they stepped up on short notice.

Excellent post.  Spot on.  

 

Examples of guys refusing fights and not getting cut are GSP, Machida, Shogun, Bones, Mitrione, and Kongo, yet none of them got cut.  In Shogun's case he turned 2 fighters down relatively close to each other.  He's still around because he isn't on the fringe of being gone.  But let a guy with several losses pull that and they will be gone.  Just some of the perks that guys who are making the company money get.  

11/20/12 2:34 AM
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The Cooler
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SinCityHustler - 
The Cooler - "It's Dana White's company, he can set the expectations how ever he sees fit."

Not if he wants to call it a legitimate sport instead of entertainment.

Dana is going to call it what ever he wants, even if it's a bold face lie.  Last I heard he said it isn't a main stream sport and that they are only scratching the surface, that this thing is going to be bigger than soccer.  It's his company, he can call it what ever he wants.   We both know that.  


I can call my dick Rodzilla.

But you know when that fails? When third party perspective comes into play.

Of course he can call it what he wants...that doesn't mean people have to go along with it.

If you doubt me I could send you a picture of me and Rodzilla hanging out together. If afterwards you can call me penis Rodzilla with a straight face then I concede your point.

The UFC isn't a sport, and won't be one until there is a clear path to belt contention based on cold, hard math.
11/20/12 2:40 AM
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time traveling 12er
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The Cooler - 
time traveling 12er - Guys talking about fighters getting cut after stepping up are looking at it the wrong way. You're looking at is as if their options are to take a fight on short notice, or wait for a better fight. But those fighters generally don't have that luxury and they're usually not in the position to pick and choose. The chance to step up may be the only alternative to getting cut in the near future without another fight.

Think about it like this, the guys on the fringe are like deep bench players in basketball or the NFL or whatever. The coach comes in and says "crap we got an injury! this is your chance... get in there!" Instead of running in there, the deep bench guy says "damn, I haven't stretched yet coach, also this team is a bad match up for me." and sits back down. Guess what? When that better opportunity comes up, you think the coach is going to think of you first? No, because you already probably got cut while waiting for a better opportunity. That's how dumb it is to turn down a fight if you're on the fringe or have a losing streak going.

Fighters have gotten spoiled by the recent success of the sport. Back when orgs could fold overnight everyone had to take whatever they could take because next week the whole thing could be gone. Now that the UFC has created some security they feel safe enough to pick an choose. I'm guessing anyone who wasn't already on the border of being cut is going to lose their job over losing a fight where they stepped up on short notice.

Your post is well reasoned but for one thing.

It isn't a team sport. The UFC isn't on your team. Your team consists of exactly one guy (plus trainers/corner/etc of course).

People have already listed plenty of fighters who stepped up on short notice and then were cut soon after.

So much for the team spirit.

You're right, which is why it makes no sense for people to continually expect it to hold to team sport standards or else be labeled "entertainment". Like the constant cry for rankings when other team sport force everyone to compete on a set schedule regardless or rankings and have set schedules. I only used team sports since everyone seems to like pointing to other sports as comparison.

Besides that my analogy still works regardless of the team/individual dynamic. All it's saying is that a guy that is not good or not doing well is ill advised to turn down opportunities. Team or not, get it? You'd look at a 5th string player turning down a chance to perform because he wasn't the perfect situation for him and you'd say he's stupid for doing it. If that same player did go in and perform poorly, then got cut, would you complain that the team was unfair or say he should have told the coach "no"?

A lower tier fighter on a losing streak is in that same position no? Only worse since their contracts allow for termination without further compensation and there is no team based need to keep them around. Yet people are suggesting it's the smart move to turn these opportunities down.

Some fighters, and fans with them, have too large a sense of entitlement. Talking about what they deserve before considering what they've earned. You're hired to fight. Sometimes those fights aren't going to be in the most perfect of circumstances. People complain about orgs coddling fighters like Bisping or Huerta, yet when fighters want to do it themselves it's suddenly ok? MMA has maybe the easiest path to the top of any major sport out there. Get out and do your thing and you may find yourself with a win. Turn it down and the only thing you can be 100% sure of is you won't get a win that night.
11/20/12 2:59 AM
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SinCityHustler
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The Cooler - 
SinCityHustler - 
The Cooler - "It's Dana White's company, he can set the expectations how ever he sees fit."

Not if he wants to call it a legitimate sport instead of entertainment.

Dana is going to call it what ever he wants, even if it's a bold face lie.  Last I heard he said it isn't a main stream sport and that they are only scratching the surface, that this thing is going to be bigger than soccer.  It's his company, he can call it what ever he wants.   We both know that.  


I can call my dick Rodzilla.

But you know when that fails? When third party perspective comes into play.

Of course he can call it what he wants...that doesn't mean people have to go along with it.

If you doubt me I could send you a picture of me and Rodzilla hanging out together. If afterwards you can call me penis Rodzilla with a straight face then I concede your point.

The UFC isn't a sport, and won't be one until there is a clear path to belt contention based on cold, hard math.

Yes you can do that, I don't see a problem with it no matter what it looks like.  I call mine Moby, so what?   

I think the point you're missing is that Dana doens't care if you believe him or not, he just wants to sell fights and someone on mma.tv calling the sport main stream or not doesn't sell fights one way or the other.  You are not his target audience.  He will tell you himself that the sport is NOT main stream.  He will tell you is has NOT even scratched the surface yet.  And then he'll tell you it's going to be BIGGER than soccer.  He doens't care what you believe, he just wants the main stream fan to hear him say it enough times soTHEY start believing it.  

11/20/12 6:58 AM
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MAG
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Ronin_jutsuka -  Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post

yup. PRIDE had a lot of flaws, but they rarely cut fighters. Fighters fought more times per year and the quality of opponent wasn't always the best, but if you lost no body cared if you showed any kind of warrior spirit.

Im not a fan of rampage by a long shot - but I agree with him that as a fighter you were willing to take more risks because you knew a loss wouldn't hurt your career.

Dana is delusional on this point.
11/20/12 7:24 AM
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Fight! UK Online
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Easy to say as a non-fighter whose career doesn't hinge on a win/loss. I've had pro fights on some pretty good international shows on a days or few weeks notice, but fighting isn't my living - it's a hobby so I get the most I can out of it in terms of experiences and travel etc.

However, as is happening with many fighters even domestically, they'll cherrypick to stack the risk/reward in their favour which is sensible if you're trying to make it a career. Not exactly the spirit of a 'fighter', but that's the way it is.

If I got to the UFC I'd fight anyone in my division there, no doubt. Unless I got to the stage where it was a champion/number-one contender situation which is really life-changing and then you've got to think business sense, branding and ultimately $$$.

11/20/12 7:34 AM
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RICKYB
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Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
It comes down to this , UFC shot themselves in the foot . Phone Post
11/20/12 7:35 AM
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TSMontana
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inf0 - 

Turning down a fight should result in a Loss on your record.

 


No offense, but of the 10 years I've been here, this is one of the silliest things I've ever read.
11/20/12 8:41 AM
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TARRat
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SinCityHustler - I call mine Moby, so what?



You named your penis after a small, squirrelly looking guy?
11/20/12 8:45 AM
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ocdacc
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ABE FROMAN -

Dear Dana,

A simple policy change will solve this ENTIRE problem.

If a fighter 'steps up' on short notice or is at ANY disadvantage then a loss will NOT result in being cut.

That is all.

 

 

 

 

yup Phone Post
11/20/12 8:47 AM
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ocdacc
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damarques johnson Phone Post
11/20/12 9:30 AM
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MarcusRenatoBrownBelt - Dana White was a good boxer. He did not have the physical talent to compete and be the best, so he got out of the sport that he loved. It was an admirable decision on Mr. White's part. Now, Dana White uses his fight knowledge and his boxing past and applies it to MMA. It's great that the fighters have another fighter who has been in the ring and knows what it feels like to hit and get hit.

if anyone can criticize a fighter for not taking a shor notice fight, it is Dana White. What is wrong with these fighters nowadays? They need to just hand over their career path to Dana White. Just put it all in his hands. He is the President and Leader of the UFC. He won't do anything to harm you . Stepping up worked great for Ben Saunders and DeMarques Johnson. Yeah, they were cut, but Mr. White will bring them back when the time is right.

r u sure?   all dana needs to do is put up 4 X the fighters pay and not many will turn him dn.

11/20/12 9:32 AM
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DanEzra
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Ludelow - Not a single fighter wants the Bonnar treatment!

Meaning the 'he'll always have a job here' treatment, or the 'short notice didn't give me enough time to cycle off PEDs" treatment?

11/20/12 10:05 AM
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The Sauce
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Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post
11/20/12 10:24 AM
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Tolstolobic
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For some fighters lost mean cut. I understand why they wanna full camp. Phone Post
11/20/12 10:30 AM
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GeraldHares
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Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.

11/20/12 10:32 AM
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GeraldHares
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TSMontana - 
inf0 - 

Turning down a fight should result in a Loss on your record.

 


No offense, but of the 10 years I've been here, this is one of the silliest things I've ever read.

I agree - the only fight he's ever been in was trying to button his pants

11/20/12 10:33 AM
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ajl416az
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Edited: 11/20/12 10:36 AM
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any fighter who is mid-card and not likely to contend, would be a fool not to consider something late notice if they are in any kind of shape

late notice fights can be another way average fighters can get job security. if you aren't a name, you are only a couple losses from being cut.
but if you can save a fight, Dana won't forget it. he can be petty if you screw him over, but he's been generous many times too.

patrick cote got so many paychecks he didn't deserve because he stepped up to fight Tito. he made a career out of a ballsy decision.
11/20/12 10:40 AM
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ABE FROMAN
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GeraldHares - 

Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.


Exhibit #1, a fighter who was cut after his first loss.

You are the subject of this thread.

11/20/12 10:42 AM
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Phil Cornelius
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Fighters turning down fights is smart who wants to take a fight on short notice with less preparation the risk of losing a fight you shouldn't have and the pay isn't worth it anyway...Turning down fights actually shows u have a brain and know how to think out what's best for YOU as a fighter/human compared to being a robot I'll fight anyone anytime anywhere type attitude
11/20/12 10:42 AM
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guardbr8kr
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GeraldHares - 
TSMontana - 
inf0 - 

Turning down a fight should result in a Loss on your record.

 


No offense, but of the 10 years I've been here, this is one of the silliest things I've ever read.

I agree - the only fight he's ever been in was trying to button his pants


best post on this forum in the last decade !!! VTFU !!!
11/20/12 11:10 AM
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jkkazmier
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Edited: 11/20/12 11:26 AM
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Well Dana, if you paid these guys like they should be paid, maybe they would take more risk. 95% of the fighters on your roster don't make enough to justify the risk. If a fighter steps up on short notice for 10k and they get injured, how the hell are they supposed to provide for their families. Also, every loss on your record affects your pay negatively for future fights.

The majority of guys that retire from the UFC will end up struggling financially but the executives get rich off their blood.

Start ponying up UFC or stop bitching that fighters are being selective, this is their job and they have to look out for their best interest, taking fights on short notice for a couple of grand seems to risky to me. Now taking a fight on short notice and getting 500K is a different story, it becomes worth risk at that point. These guys don't have long careers so every fight purse counts and every loss will negatively affect your pay.
11/20/12 11:33 AM
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time traveling 12er
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The Sauce - 
Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.

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