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11/20/12 11:35 AM
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ABE FROMAN
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Edited: 11/20/12 11:36 AM
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time traveling 12er - You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

 

11/20/12 11:40 AM
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HalfThisGameIs90PercentMental
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I understand both the fighters point of view and Dana's.

Dana's is running a fight business, he wants guys who come to fight and so do the fans.

As others have said including Dana if you put on great fights and leave it in the ring you will not be cut for losing. Aka a la Hominick.

A fighter trying to make it to the top and feed his family will obviously try and be prepared for and cautiously choose his opponents to climb the ladder.

All in all if Dana would ask me to fight on short notice I would make sure he would give me a pass on getting the pink slip if i lost and I would go in kamikaze style. Phone Post
11/20/12 11:47 AM
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easedel
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No one is going to take short notice fights if you keep tossing fighters under the bus like before ( Machida, Shogun, etc )
11/20/12 11:50 AM
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Ronin_jutsuka
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Tatakai Fightwear, President
time traveling 12er -
The Sauce - 
Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.
If that is the case, and the fighter is on the verge, isn't the UFC throwing them under the bus by not giving them the opportunity for a full training camp? Either way it is a horrible position to be in. Phone Post
11/20/12 12:31 PM
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time traveling 12er
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Ronin_jutsuka - 
time traveling 12er -
The Sauce - 
Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.
If that is the case, and the fighter is on the verge, isn't the UFC throwing them under the bus by not giving them the opportunity for a full training camp? Either way it is a horrible position to be in. Phone Post

It's definitely not the ideal situation, but for a fighter on the lower end the UFC is not obligated to make sure that every fighter gets the best circumstances ever. Ideally every fight would get to fight against a style that's easy for them and in their home town with a full training camp and get paid a zillion dollars, but that's not realistic. Sometimes they have to fight overseas and deal with jet lag or a hostile crowd. Sometimes they have to come in on short notice against a style that puts them at a disadvantage. That's how it works. That's not throwing them under the bus. These guys are already under it, the UFC is throwing them a bone. That may sound harsh but that's the reality of working with a near monopoly.

Simply put, there are tons of factors that make a fight easier or harder for a fighter. Time is just one of them.
11/20/12 12:49 PM
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SinCityHustler
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TARRat - 
SinCityHustler - I call mine Moby, so what?



You named your penis after a small, squirrelly looking guy?

No I didn't name it, one of my girls back in high school did and it caught on.  I decided to keep the name and I've had it ever since.  She never did explain about the small squirrly guy, just kept referring to it as Moby Dick.  She thought it was so clever, would laugh her ass off every time she called it that.    

11/20/12 1:07 PM
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Pyrenus
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Edited: 11/20/12 1:09 PM
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Maybe they should start publishing their names when a fighter turns down a fight. A little public humiliation might be a good incentive.

Edit: This would likely also have effects on a fighter's sponsorships.
11/20/12 1:09 PM
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SinCityHustler
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GeraldHares - 

Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.


Agree with this post and I'll add a couple of things and ask a couple of questions.  First of all, shouldn't the fighter be in shape and although not at peak shape, in fight shape none the less in case his name gets called up?   I think the fighter should want to be in shape and live that lifestyle, as many do.  Many of the short notice fights are at least a month notice if not longer and in the event that the fight is closer, generally guys are being asked to step in that are training for other fights anyways.  I don't see this as a big problem, where others are saying they need the full camp in order to get ready for the specific opponennt.  But if the specific opponent doesn't have additional time to get ready either, that seems like a wash to me.  Perhaps I'm biased because I'm from an era where you didn't get months to prepare for your fight, rather often times you found out who you were fighting at the fighter meeting the day prior to the fight or the day of.  It was your responsibility to show up in shape, ready to go.  thecobra here Gerald, thanks for the reply and hope to see you in the big show soon.  

 

11/20/12 1:12 PM
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MattyJ
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Dana has a point when it comes to people like Jon Jones turning down a replacement fight when he was in fight shape and against a lighter opponent who hasn't trained etc,
but as many others have said when the stakes are so high and there seems to be no allowances for losing in a short notice fight he really can't blame people for not doing him a favour when their whole career might go down the pan if they lose. Phone Post
11/20/12 1:12 PM
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Hungry4Stink
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VitorSuckedBonesToes - 

Bed meet bedmaker


Exactly. Things change if Zuffa makes them employees instead of independent contractors, but Zuffa is not willing to do that.
11/20/12 1:15 PM
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UGCTT_I Got Fitched Up
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Maybe Dana is missing the part where fighters want to be PAID EXTRA for stepping up on short notice. Many of them might be saying no because they want more money.... Phone Post
11/20/12 1:19 PM
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JimmersonzGlove
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So Dana misses the Pride days too, eh?

11/20/12 1:25 PM
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time traveling 12er
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LilBrockonmychest - 
Ronin_jutsuka - 
time traveling 12er -
The Sauce - 
Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.
If that is the case, and the fighter is on the verge, isn't the UFC throwing them under the bus by not giving them the opportunity for a full training camp? Either way it is a horrible position to be in. Phone Post

Yep... if a fighter is on the verge of getting cut, that's all the more reason to make sure you have a full 6-8 week camp specifically tailored to your opponent to be fully prepared and give yourself the best chance to win.


Why stop there? Why not also wait for the perfect opponent that offers the best risk to reward ratio? A highly ranked fighter that gives you a style advantage. And why not wait to fight in your home town where you'll get the backing of the crowd? And why not wait... oh too bad you lost your job.

Turning down a fight gives you 0% chance of winning. It also sucks for fans having to sit around waiting for fighters to timidly lawyer their way to the top. I always thought the objective was to see who was the best, not to see who could game the system the best.
11/20/12 1:26 PM
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Zed Wayne Zed
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Problem is, lots of guys "Who come to fight" still get cut.

11/20/12 2:12 PM
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PrestigeWorldwide
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time traveling 12er - 
The Sauce - 
Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.

It's not just fighters on the verge of getting cut though. Look at Kongo and Mitrione. Both have turned down fights and are not fighters the UFC will cut after a short-notice loss.

The problem there is that they don't want to risk their line in title contention. A loss sends them to the far back of the line and also shoots them down on the main card or prelims.
11/20/12 2:22 PM
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Ludelow
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DanEzra - 
Ludelow - Not a single fighter wants the Bonnar treatment!

Meaning the 'he'll always have a job here' treatment, or the 'short notice didn't give me enough time to cycle off PEDs" treatment?


after he tested positive he lost it all, a nice retirement, his commentary job, hell, even dana does not want to talk to him, dana is afraid to pick up his cell?

well, so for the rewards of taking a fight on short notice to save a card!
11/20/12 2:28 PM
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Steven S
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I am fed up with Dana taling to/about fighters the way he does. The man hasn't fought before and his bullshit bullying tactics the way he talks to them is absurd. He has no class.

11/20/12 2:33 PM
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JerodR
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When fighting is how you feed your family you are going to take fights that make sense for you, and give you time to be ready. I know it sucks but Dana has to understand that these people are just trying to protect their future. They don't want to be the next guy sent packing because they had a sub par performance.
11/20/12 2:36 PM
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Internettufguy
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Ludelow - 
DanEzra - 
Ludelow - Not a single fighter wants the Bonnar treatment!

Meaning the 'he'll always have a job here' treatment, or the 'short notice didn't give me enough time to cycle off PEDs" treatment?


after he tested positive he lost it all, a nice retirement, his commentary job, hell, even dana does not want to talk to him, dana is afraid to pick up his cell?

well, so for the rewards of taking a fight on short notice to save a card!

Did you not read the part of your statement that says "after he tested positive?" Taking the fight on short notice and losing has nothing to do with Dana's current attitude toward Bonnar. He is pissed because he was caught using banned substances. Again.
11/20/12 2:45 PM
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Internettufguy
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Can someone please compile a list of fighters that were cut immediately after losing a short notice fight?

I think that rather than making generalized statements about fighters being punished for taking short notice fights, it would be more prudent to look at each situation individually - like DeMarques being cut because Joe Silva, not Dana, was pissed at him for missing weight, and he had already lost two fights in a row prior to this. DeMarques was only still in the UFC because he is a gamer.

I see lots of comments about not wanting to take fights because of the chance they can lose money. Well, if they don't fight how much money do they make?

These short notice fights are not total mismatches and if the fighter being asked to step up doesn't feel he can cut the muster, then perhaps fighting on the smaller shows to develop his skill is a better bet. In fact, I think the UFC does a lot of these guys who have been losing or even remaining stagnant a favor by letting them go. I would think it is much easier to get your confidence back and reestablish your brand on a smaller stage. Not to mention you can get a lot more fights outside the UFC.

For every fighter that is questionably cut, there is someone that is brought back so it isn't like the UFC is blackballing all these fighters.
11/20/12 2:48 PM
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Vitor29
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MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post
11/20/12 2:59 PM
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Internettufguy
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Vitor29 - 
MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post

You are also jeopardizing your career by not taking the fight. Works both ways. Your career can be made or broken by the matchmaker, probably a better idea to take a chance with a potential loss then risk getting on his bad side.

11/20/12 3:21 PM
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Andy Rigg
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if the fighters are all independent contracters, isn't this simply a case of picking which jobs they want? if i'm a pilot who has just finished a contract, do i take the first job that comes along next? or do i wait for one that i like the look of? if i refuse to take the ethiopia-nigeria long haul, for no extra money, would i then be asked 'do i want to be a fucking pilot?'
11/20/12 3:27 PM
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Kenso
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MarcusRenatoBrownBelt - Dana White was a good boxer. He did not have the physical talent to compete and be the best, so he got out of the sport that he loved. It was an admirable decision on Mr. White's part. Now, Dana White uses his fight knowledge and his boxing past and applies it to MMA. It's great that the fighters have another fighter who has been in the ring and knows what it feels like to hit and get hit.

if anyone can criticize a fighter for not taking a shor notice fight, it is Dana White. What is wrong with these fighters nowadays? They need to just hand over their career path to Dana White. Just put it all in his hands. He is the President and Leader of the UFC. He won't do anything to harm you . Stepping up worked great for Ben Saunders and DeMarques Johnson. Yeah, they were cut, but Mr. White will bring them back when the time is right.

Hi Dana!
11/20/12 3:28 PM
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Ludelow
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Internettufguy - 
Ludelow - 
DanEzra - 
Ludelow - Not a single fighter wants the Bonnar treatment!

Meaning the 'he'll always have a job here' treatment, or the 'short notice didn't give me enough time to cycle off PEDs" treatment?


after he tested positive he lost it all, a nice retirement, his commentary job, hell, even dana does not want to talk to him, dana is afraid to pick up his cell?

well, so for the rewards of taking a fight on short notice to save a card!

Did you not read the part of your statement that says "after he tested positive?" Taking the fight on short notice and losing has nothing to do with Dana's current attitude toward Bonnar. He is pissed because he was caught using banned substances. Again.

He used a cutting agent, to make 205 in a short amount of time.
he was not pissed about bonnar because of the failed test, but because bonnar failed to tell him about it.
sounds strange? like it is common practice to inform the boss of the UFC, you're on the PEDS.

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