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UnderGround Forums >> White fed up with fighters turning down bouts


11/20/12 3:32 PM
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Vitor29
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MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post

You are also jeopardizing your career by not taking the fight. Works both ways. Your career can be made or broken by the matchmaker, probably a better idea to take a chance with a potential loss then risk getting on his bad side.


Hmmm, let's see, take a fight on short notice thereby decreasing your chances to win or take a fight with ample notice thereby increasing your chances to win? With a win you WILL NOT be cut, with a loss you are a step closer to being cut. You don't get special credit for taking a fight on short notice and losing, it's basically "thanks for the favour, but don't expect one in return so pack your bags".
11/20/12 3:47 PM
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mmamathwiz
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Mr Jackson - When i hear this argument i think about a guy like chris lytle that did not win every fight but put it all on the line . and was loved win or loose

zuffa does not get rid of the guys that truly come to fight


Lytle is the exception not the rule. If the fighters knew they would all get treated like Chris more people would step up for risky fights.
11/20/12 3:48 PM
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Delightone
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If they give the guy coming in at short notice a 100% follow up fight.
The fighters wouldnt bail on them like now Phone Post
11/20/12 4:23 PM
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BlueOnBlack
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If we are truly going to classify MMA/UFC as a sport alongside the NFL, NBA, etc. then it needs to be treated as such. This notion of a "you're either fighters or you're not" seems more like something you'd throw out during the Tank Abbot era. Sure, they are fighters but they are professional athletes first, fighting in the largest fight organization in the world.

I think this is more a reaction to so many fighters pulling out with injuries than it is to the UFC not having people who will step up on short notice. As a fan it's certainly frustrating so I can't even imagine what it would be like if it were my job!
11/20/12 4:27 PM
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GeraldHares
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Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.


Agree with this post and I'll add a couple of things and ask a couple of questions.  First of all, shouldn't the fighter be in shape and although not at peak shape, in fight shape none the less in case his name gets called up?   I think the fighter should want to be in shape and live that lifestyle, as many do.  Many of the short notice fights are at least a month notice if not longer and in the event that the fight is closer, generally guys are being asked to step in that are training for other fights anyways.  I don't see this as a big problem, where others are saying they need the full camp in order to get ready for the specific opponennt.  But if the specific opponent doesn't have additional time to get ready either, that seems like a wash to me.  Perhaps I'm biased because I'm from an era where you didn't get months to prepare for your fight, rather often times you found out who you were fighting at the fighter meeting the day prior to the fight or the day of.  It was your responsibility to show up in shape, ready to go.  thecobra here Gerald, thanks for the reply and hope to see you in the big show soon.  

 


Fighting is not like a team sport - where you compete every weekend or every few days. Who cares if the Lakers lose 3 games in a row or the Saints are 0-4 - they only care about peaking at the right time & getting to the playoffs. In MMA every fight is the playoffs - with that being said - we are not ready for this type of competition all the time - it takes 6-8 weeks of preperation. I couldn't imagine a guy taking a 5 round fight out of shape. He could possible die from exaustion competing against the best in the world. I've taken my share fair of short notice bouts, but only because  I was training for another fight. 

Other than that it comes to loyalty - how can you expect fighters to take short notice bouts to "help" the organization when they are quick to shit on your for losing, not making weight, or looking bad. Fighters like me take short notice fight to hopefully impress our boss & build some credit. In my case I took a few short notice fights - won all by knockout, made it on ESPN, 2-KOTN awards, but I took one boring ass whoopin and I was gone. Life isn't fait but I'm not a fucking race horse that you shoot when his leg is broken. I'm a man with a family to feed. Does that cross my mind when I'm losing a fight? Yes, but I did give it everything I had - When the world of MMA stops worrying about peoples "jobs" then fighters will commit more. A 6-fight contract shoud be six damn fights regardless of how you do. Unless you fail a drug test, cheat, or violate some rules. Having a bad fight should not be punished harder than a guy who uses horse piss to pass a drug test.

Does that answer your question?

11/20/12 4:42 PM
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SinCityHustler
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^^^It does, thanks for your responseGerald.  

I don't think anyone expects an out of shape guy to take a 5 round fight.  The fact that Chael did it is major props to him.  The fact that Bones wouldn't take it even though he was the bigger and better fighter, and was already peaking for the fight is what many have problems with.  

11/20/12 4:49 PM
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6ULDV8
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McCorkle made a great post about this a while back, but I forget exactly what he said.

 

Something about a guarantee or something.  

 

Anyway, I remember he made a great point right after Mittrione turned down a fight.

11/20/12 4:50 PM
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ABE FROMAN
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SinCityHustler - 

^^^It does, thanks for your responseGerald.  

I don't think anyone expects an out of shape guy to take a 5 round fight.  The fact that Chael did it is major props to him.  The fact that Bones wouldn't take it even though he was the bigger and better fighter, and was already peaking for the fight is what many have problems with.  


Agreed on Bones.

The Gerald thing has always bothered me though. He's the poster child for unfairness imo.

They canned him while he was trying to do right by the UFC.

 

11/20/12 4:50 PM
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SinCityHustler
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MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post

You are also jeopardizing your career by not taking the fight. Works both ways. Your career can be made or broken by the matchmaker, probably a better idea to take a chance with a potential loss then risk getting on his bad side.


Hmmm, let's see, take a fight on short notice thereby decreasing your chances to win or take a fight with ample notice thereby increasing your chances to win? With a win you WILL NOT be cut, with a loss you are a step closer to being cut. You don't get special credit for taking a fight on short notice and losing, it's basically "thanks for the favour, but don't expect one in return so pack your bags".

How are your chances any bettter one way or the other if your opponnet has the same notice that you have?  

Scenario1:You're going to fight Meathead.  You're given 2 months to prepare and so is he.  

Scenario 2: Both you and Mitrione are sitting in the stands and you're called out to fight him at a moment's notice.  He doens't even know who you are.  

Under which scenario are your chances better?  

11/20/12 4:53 PM
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SinCityHustler
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ABE FROMAN - 
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^^^It does, thanks for your responseGerald.  

I don't think anyone expects an out of shape guy to take a 5 round fight.  The fact that Chael did it is major props to him.  The fact that Bones wouldn't take it even though he was the bigger and better fighter, and was already peaking for the fight is what many have problems with.  


Agreed on Bones.

The Gerald thing has always bothered me though. He's the poster child for unfairness imo.

They canned him while he was trying to do right by the UFC.

 


Was that a short notice fight for Gerald?  I certainly wasn't happy with him being released but I didn't realize he had stepped up on short notice for that fight.  

11/20/12 5:29 PM
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Deaf Forever
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Edited: 11/20/12 5:37 PM
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That piece of shit Dana can't put blame on these guys for not taking these short notice fights. The UFC doesn't reward fighters who step in on short notice and have no problem cutting guys who do them the favor. Completely uncalled for to make them out to be cowards when they're just protecting their interests.

Guys like Mitrione and Kongo know that the UFC is dog eat dog and one loss and you can get cut with no just cause. Guarantee you more fighters would step up if Zuffa had job security.

I really hate how he makes it seem like Kongo did something wrong or owed the UFC a risky short notice bout. Dana acts like these guys are "part of the team" when Zuffa needs a favor then it's "business" when they get cut. Fuck that.
11/20/12 5:35 PM
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Deaf Forever
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If the UFC treated their mid-lower tier guys like they treat DAN HARDY and reward strong efforts/entertaining fights and didn't cut guys after doing them a favor then many many many more guys would be stepping up and few guys would feel forced to fight safe. The UFC should cut all the TUF rejects, STOP SIGHNING SUB-UFC TALENT, then treat their decent UFC level talent like Kongo with more respect and a sense of security.

DeMarques Johnson getting cut probably discouraged/scared the fuck out of guys. Retarded and absolutely unfair move.
11/20/12 5:36 PM
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cycklops
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Dana could call and I'd fight tomorrow. Not sure that helps him at all though

11/20/12 6:04 PM
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SinCityHustler
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LilBrockonmychest - 
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Vitor29 - 
MasterofMartialArts - I'm one guy who strongly believes in guys fighting who is in front of them. Recently this has been a growing trend with more guys on the roster, more events, and more injuries. The only time I would justify turning down a fight is for an injury. Not that I'm in the fight business or that I'm important, but I have tremendous respect for guys that fight anybody that's offered. Guys that say "whatever my boss asks of me, I will do". It's a really a simple, moral value. Phone Post
It's an idiotic moral value if you know that by taking that fight and losing you are jeopardizing your career. Phone Post

You are also jeopardizing your career by not taking the fight. Works both ways. Your career can be made or broken by the matchmaker, probably a better idea to take a chance with a potential loss then risk getting on his bad side.


Hmmm, let's see, take a fight on short notice thereby decreasing your chances to win or take a fight with ample notice thereby increasing your chances to win? With a win you WILL NOT be cut, with a loss you are a step closer to being cut. You don't get special credit for taking a fight on short notice and losing, it's basically "thanks for the favour, but don't expect one in return so pack your bags".

How are your chances any bettter one way or the other if your opponnet has the same notice that you have?  

Scenario1:You're going to fight Meathead.  You're given 2 months to prepare and so is he.  

Scenario 2: Both you and Mitrione are sitting in the stands and you're called out to fight him at a moment's notice.  He doens't even know who you are.  

Under which scenario are your chances better?  


That's not generally how it happens.  Typically it's scenario 1 but one of the fighters has to back out and the UFC wants someone else to step in on short notice.


Those guys that the UFC wants to step in on short notice, are they sitting on the couch getting fat or are they also in a training camp, preparing for a fight?

11/20/12 6:16 PM
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BLACKBUDDAH
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Dana wants to legitimize MMA but runs it like Backyard wrestling. If you get rid of the 3 and out Bs. Fighters would put it on the line and accept fights. When they lose and Dana goes in to interviews he slams fighters so don't be surprised at fighters not accepting every fight. Phone Post
11/20/12 6:28 PM
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SinCityHustler
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LilBrockonmychest - 

I would say generally the people they want to step in on short notice are not in a training camp.  Why would they be?  They don't have a fight scheduled. 


They would be in training camps because they are helping other fighters prepare for fights.  In the process, they're staying in shape as well in case a call comes in.  This is pretty standard.  

There are also many cases where a fighter is preparing for his own fight and is asked to forego that fight in order to take another, (Jones in camp for Henderson, asked to take on Chael, Bisping in camp asked to take on Chael and vice versa at the last minute for the FOX show, Mir in camp, asked to take on JDS and vice versa, Cain in camp asked to take on Big Foot. etc.)

 

11/20/12 7:01 PM
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SamboMMA
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This is why MMA needs a solid #2 promotion. Dana wasn't this much of an asshole until after PRIDE died out and any other potential leagues died out.

For all those guys here that wanted UFC to be the one and only and are now complaining about Dana's attitude. Beware of what you wish for.
11/20/12 7:18 PM
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time traveling 12er
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time traveling 12er - 
LilBrockonmychest - 
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time traveling 12er -
The Sauce - 
Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.
If that is the case, and the fighter is on the verge, isn't the UFC throwing them under the bus by not giving them the opportunity for a full training camp? Either way it is a horrible position to be in. Phone Post

Yep... if a fighter is on the verge of getting cut, that's all the more reason to make sure you have a full 6-8 week camp specifically tailored to your opponent to be fully prepared and give yourself the best chance to win.


Why stop there? Why not also wait for the perfect opponent that offers the best risk to reward ratio? A highly ranked fighter that gives you a style advantage. And why not wait to fight in your home town where you'll get the backing of the crowd? And why not wait... oh too bad you lost your job.

Turning down a fight gives you 0% chance of winning. It also sucks for fans having to sit around waiting for fighters to timidly lawyer their way to the top. I always thought the objective was to see who was the best, not to see who could game the system the best.

Care to name another sport where athletes compete unprepared?  It's not like the NFL all of a sudden calls up and tells a team "hey we're actually going to have the Superbowl tomorrow instead of 2 weeks from today."


Yeah, every single sport out there. You sit on the bench and if the guys ahead of you get injured you have to play ready or not. You show up to training camp out of shape and the schedule says you play the Saints on Sunday... guess what, ready or not you play them on Sunday.

Can you decide which team you play against in the other sports? No the schedule gets set at the beginning of the season. Do you only have to perform 3 times a year in the other sports? No you play up to 160 times a year. Can you live wherever you want to live in the other sport? No you get traded, that's where you live.

Yeah when you actually really compare MMA to other sports you realize it's fucking stupid because they're completely different. How is ranking in NBA comparable to MMA when NBA players all play each other a set amount of times regardless of ranking. People really need to stop with this nonsense or at least give it more than 3 seconds of thought.
11/20/12 9:36 PM
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KlingKiteMayor
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time traveling 12er - 
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time traveling 12er - 
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Ronin_jutsuka - 
time traveling 12er -
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Ronin_jutsuka - Think that people would be more likely to take that short-notice fight if it didn't mean getting cut after 2 consecutive losses? Phone Post
Correct answer! Phone Post

You think the guys getting cut after stepping up weren't already on the verge of getting cut?

People are looking at this as the fighter doing the UFC a favor so the UFC should owe them. The reality is that the UFC is the top dog so unless you're already in a position not to be cut, the UFC is doing you a favor by even offering the fight.

The guy that mentioned pride before. Yeah they didn't cut fighters for losing because they weren't in a position to. They didn't have a near monopoly they could sit on and pick and choose at their leisure. It had nothing to do with budo and everything to do with business and entertainment.

It seems crazy to offer guaranteed fight extensions for guys that take fights on short notice. Particularly when there are probably tons of fighter on the same level that would be willing to take the fight.
If that is the case, and the fighter is on the verge, isn't the UFC throwing them under the bus by not giving them the opportunity for a full training camp? Either way it is a horrible position to be in. Phone Post

Yep... if a fighter is on the verge of getting cut, that's all the more reason to make sure you have a full 6-8 week camp specifically tailored to your opponent to be fully prepared and give yourself the best chance to win.


Why stop there? Why not also wait for the perfect opponent that offers the best risk to reward ratio? A highly ranked fighter that gives you a style advantage. And why not wait to fight in your home town where you'll get the backing of the crowd? And why not wait... oh too bad you lost your job.

Turning down a fight gives you 0% chance of winning. It also sucks for fans having to sit around waiting for fighters to timidly lawyer their way to the top. I always thought the objective was to see who was the best, not to see who could game the system the best.

Care to name another sport where athletes compete unprepared?  It's not like the NFL all of a sudden calls up and tells a team "hey we're actually going to have the Superbowl tomorrow instead of 2 weeks from today."


Yeah, every single sport out there. You sit on the bench and if the guys ahead of you get injured you have to play ready or not. You show up to training camp out of shape and the schedule says you play the Saints on Sunday... guess what, ready or not you play them on Sunday.

Can you decide which team you play against in the other sports? No the schedule gets set at the beginning of the season. Do you only have to perform 3 times a year in the other sports? No you play up to 160 times a year. Can you live wherever you want to live in the other sport? No you get traded, that's where you live.

Yeah when you actually really compare MMA to other sports you realize it's fucking stupid because they're completely different. How is ranking in NBA comparable to MMA when NBA players all play each other a set amount of times regardless of ranking. People really need to stop with this nonsense or at least give it more than 3 seconds of thought.

I agree. I think its more proper to compare college football teams. If you are number 1, Notre Dame, and you are offered a chance to play Oregon on no notice, but it won't help you get to the title game, why do it?

Plus, like in football, part of the fun is seeing how fighters prepare for one another. It makes fighting at least partially intellectual.

I can watch people throw blows randomly on wshh
11/20/12 9:55 PM
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youarewhatiswrong
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ssj - I love all these NON FIGHTERS trying to tell fighters what to do.

This includes Dana White.

STFU.

Do they want to make money fighting? its no different than most trades man. Artists and welders can do whatever the fuck they want, or they can give up a little bit of that control and make some money

They can also be judicious about the jobs that they accept, the compensation that they will accept and the timeframe that the work will be completed.
11/20/12 9:58 PM
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Ludelow
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Maybe a fighter needs to say, i'll take this fight on short notice, but i demand not to get cut after a loss.
if the UFC does not like it, they do not have a replacement, the UFC needs the fighters to make money, not the other way round!
11/20/12 10:01 PM
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Samjackson
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I don't claim to know a lot about business, and won't offer opinions on it. I just think that much like benches in other sports there should be some guys put on standby for when this happens. Put a guy on stand by, and pay him the show up fee/half pay. This would give you some room in my view, but this is a staffing opinion not a real business one. This way you have a guy ready, and if he's not needed he still gets paid. You would have guys jumping at the chance to be on that list.
11/20/12 10:18 PM
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The Cooler
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GeraldHares - 
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GeraldHares - 

Take it from a fighter that in some cases turning down fights is not a cowardly thing. Unless you are already in shape - you can't expect a guy to risk his career on a short notice bout when he's not prepared. THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE REWARD and we have all seen cases of guys being "cut" or ruined by short notice fights. The only benefit for winning a short notice fight is having extra money in your bank account & advancing in the division. The risk....well losing is terrible, because regardless if your 3-0 or 0-3 no one is safe. You get half your money, possibly injured, suspended, embarrased, and could lose your job in your next bout with a loss (some guys have a clause where they can't be cut after a short notice bout) So to tell a guy your a fighter - you should always be ready to fight comes from people who have never competed at that level. Try telling a Doctor to alway be prepared to perform surgery and he will probably tell you to kiss his ass. Anything competitive at such a high level needs the proper preparation & confidence to go in there. Damn the loss, you could be seriously injured by going in there not %100. The next time you decide to tell a fighter to "take a fight" try being locked in a cage with another man for 15 minutes where his tank is full and yours is half empty & see what happens.

Oh yea - on the other hand - if your in shape and you don't take a fight - then that is a true example of BITCHASSNESS! I would never turn down a fight that I felt I was physically/mentally ready for.


Agree with this post and I'll add a couple of things and ask a couple of questions.  First of all, shouldn't the fighter be in shape and although not at peak shape, in fight shape none the less in case his name gets called up?   I think the fighter should want to be in shape and live that lifestyle, as many do.  Many of the short notice fights are at least a month notice if not longer and in the event that the fight is closer, generally guys are being asked to step in that are training for other fights anyways.  I don't see this as a big problem, where others are saying they need the full camp in order to get ready for the specific opponennt.  But if the specific opponent doesn't have additional time to get ready either, that seems like a wash to me.  Perhaps I'm biased because I'm from an era where you didn't get months to prepare for your fight, rather often times you found out who you were fighting at the fighter meeting the day prior to the fight or the day of.  It was your responsibility to show up in shape, ready to go.  thecobra here Gerald, thanks for the reply and hope to see you in the big show soon.  

 


Fighting is not like a team sport - where you compete every weekend or every few days. Who cares if the Lakers lose 3 games in a row or the Saints are 0-4 - they only care about peaking at the right time & getting to the playoffs. In MMA every fight is the playoffs - with that being said - we are not ready for this type of competition all the time - it takes 6-8 weeks of preperation. I couldn't imagine a guy taking a 5 round fight out of shape. He could possible die from exaustion competing against the best in the world. I've taken my share fair of short notice bouts, but only because  I was training for another fight. 

Other than that it comes to loyalty - how can you expect fighters to take short notice bouts to "help" the organization when they are quick to shit on your for losing, not making weight, or looking bad. Fighters like me take short notice fight to hopefully impress our boss & build some credit. In my case I took a few short notice fights - won all by knockout, made it on ESPN, 2-KOTN awards, but I took one boring ass whoopin and I was gone. Life isn't fait but I'm not a fucking race horse that you shoot when his leg is broken. I'm a man with a family to feed. Does that cross my mind when I'm losing a fight? Yes, but I did give it everything I had - When the world of MMA stops worrying about peoples "jobs" then fighters will commit more. A 6-fight contract shoud be six damn fights regardless of how you do. Unless you fail a drug test, cheat, or violate some rules. Having a bad fight should not be punished harder than a guy who uses horse piss to pass a drug test.

Does that answer your question?


Thanks for sharing the only opinion on this thread that should really matter, a fighter's.

DW running the UFC is like an ugly woman running a pageant...deep down they both hate the participants for being what they never were or ever could be.

11/20/12 10:23 PM
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UGCTT_ScarecrowRio
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If Dana practiced what he preached, he would have stepped up and fought Ortiz at 106 when Coleman had to withdraw from the fight. 

11/20/12 10:40 PM
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effinggoof
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Member Since: 1/18/03
Posts: 11706
In the history of the UFC, there has been one very consistent message from DFW...he treats fighters like they are his employees.

When DFW hears no,he gets very upset.

So fuck him and his little internet tantrum.

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