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UnderGround Forums >> Coach: Condit did as much damage from bottom


11/22/12 5:23 PM
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Soup and Beer
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SinCityHustler -

What mistake did GSP make vs Serra?  That was by far his toughest fight.  Lets say he hadn' tsurrendered, how do you thin kthat fight turns out?  No contest, Matt Serra was by far his toughest.  I thought Condit pushed him pretty good too but obviously no where as near as Serra who made GSP quit.  

I think he means he got caught and after that the fight was over. He came back to beat the every loving shit out of Serra in a complete mismatch. I think he is saying he could fight Condit 10 times and they would all be extremely hard fights. He could fight Serra 10 times and assuming he didnt get caught, he would beat Serra with ease. Phone Post
11/22/12 5:46 PM
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Rickson's Aura
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Wasa-B - 
Rickson's Aura - I got nothing against Condit, but Winklejohn is a moron. GSP has Fedor-like skin. Just because he cuts easier doesn't mean Condit should have won which is what Winklejohn is trying to say. Condit also got hit with forearms/elbows that didn't mark up his face. Other than that one kick, GSP beat him on the feet as well.

I think your interpretation could also be called moronic as well for thinking that's what Winkeljohn was trying to say.

Its true that GSP marks up pretty easy but its also true that Condit was hitting GSP's head all night from his guard. WJ acknowledged GSP's tds, top control, etc. In terms of Condit doing more damage standing, i would agree. I wouldnt say Carlos won the overall standup battle but to say he did more damage is not incorrect imo.

What i got out of this is that WJ thinks Condit did as much damage from the bottom as GSP did on top. I dont think thats incorrect. GSP did not get a whole lot of quality or quantity of GNP on the ground. I think GSP won but i dont disagree necessarily that Condit did as much damage on the ground.

You're just as delusional as Winklejohn in that case. Other than a kick, GSP landed the better and cleaner shots standing. Credit to Condit for taking them. The majority of the power strikes on the bottom were landed by GSP. Fedor's face looked much worse than Crocop's in their fight but we all know who won that fight on the ground and the feet.

Your posts insinuates that GSP only had the edge on takedowns and top control. That is ridiculous.
11/22/12 7:04 PM
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RandyDarsh
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The only problem is that gsp forced him to his back, so he had no choice but to fight from there for most the fight. Phone Post
11/22/12 7:05 PM
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inf0
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the only reason this fight was any good was because Condit couldn't run from his back...

 

11/22/12 7:05 PM
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inf0
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( I kid...sort of)

 

11/22/12 7:11 PM
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Nexuscrawlers
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UGSlapshot - Condit is not as dangerous as Diaz is on the ground, GSP may decision Diaz but trying to say Condit is more of a threat off his back is because of his performance doesn't really wash IMO. Phone Post
Diaz is usually not as active of his back. His subs are better than Condit's though. Phone Post
11/22/12 7:14 PM
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surfing
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Edited: 11/22/12 7:16 PM
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I love it when people - especially coaches - say "if we only had 1 more round."

I guess its lost on them that these guys train and pace themselves to go all out for 5 rounds and not a 6th.

GSP is a different breed of athlete than the guys he's faced thus far - had he trained for 6 rounds the 6th round would have been just like the rest.......

Props to Condit though - great fighter, honorable and classy in the cage and after defeat........
11/22/12 7:15 PM
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surfing
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Edited: 11/22/12 7:15 PM
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11/22/12 7:15 PM
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Wasa-B
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Porkchop - 
Wasa-B - 
Porkchop - Too bad this isnt the ultimate damage causing championships. Also, if damage is the most important thing, how much does blood count for? Carlos was a bloody mess from the last minute of the first round till the end of the fight.

Carlos fought a great fight but Georges is undoubtedly the better fighter.

Dont think WJ once said Carlos was the better fighter and should have taken the decision.

He also did not say damage is the only factor. But as we know damage is a major factor. Actual damage should be weighed higher than superficial damage which is often what a cut and blood is. Im not saying Condit wasnt "hurt" at all by that elbow that caused the cut but he sure wasnt stunned or really hurt by it imo.

Asking "how much blood counts for in itself" is also the wrong view to take. Blood is superficial. In itself, it doesnt mean a whole lot. Cuts can be caused from strikes that do not actually hurt the fighters at all.

WJ also acknowledged the tds and top control and imposing GSP's will on the ground.

Damage is not a major factor to who wins the fight. The only thing that matters is how the fighters fight.

My point, which you must have missed, is that all damage is superficial unless it effects how the fighters fight.

If damage was the most important thing, no one would attack the body because that damage isn't as obvious as facial damage.

My other point is that WJ seems to be stating a case for Carlos winning the fight in his eyes. The better man won.

I think you're thinking that Im using "damage" synonomously with "superficial" or "cosmetic damage" (even though I made the distinction more than once).

In some ways I agree that "damage is superficial unless it effects how the fighters fight." Sometimes its hard to tell when someone is rocked when they actually are. But its impossible to know how much "damage" good looking strikes occur so the judges (and fans) largely do weigh strikes on how solid they look to land, etc as well. Obviously a strike that lands flush with reasonable force would be weighed higher than a glancing blow but its impossible to tell how much those flush strikes really hurt any given fighter all the time.

So it sounds like you're saying, unless you can visibly see a reaction or a change in strategy as a result from striking damage ("effects how a fighter fights"), "all damage is superficial," which of course is the furthest thing from the truth. And of course a change in strategy is impossible to determine all the time as a result from damage as well. They can happen to bait, to mix it up, etc.
11/22/12 7:17 PM
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Samoa
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GSP v Penn I was a split decision win; I would think that's a tougher win than 50-45 unanimous decision wins? Phone Post
11/22/12 7:31 PM
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Wasa-B
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Rickson's Aura - 
Wasa-B - 
Rickson's Aura - I got nothing against Condit, but Winklejohn is a moron. GSP has Fedor-like skin. Just because he cuts easier doesn't mean Condit should have won which is what Winklejohn is trying to say. Condit also got hit with forearms/elbows that didn't mark up his face. Other than that one kick, GSP beat him on the feet as well.

I think your interpretation could also be called moronic as well for thinking that's what Winkeljohn was trying to say.

Its true that GSP marks up pretty easy but its also true that Condit was hitting GSP's head all night from his guard. WJ acknowledged GSP's tds, top control, etc. In terms of Condit doing more damage standing, i would agree. I wouldnt say Carlos won the overall standup battle but to say he did more damage is not incorrect imo.

What i got out of this is that WJ thinks Condit did as much damage from the bottom as GSP did on top. I dont think thats incorrect. GSP did not get a whole lot of quality or quantity of GNP on the ground. I think GSP won but i dont disagree necessarily that Condit did as much damage on the ground.

You're just as delusional as Winklejohn in that case. Other than a kick, GSP landed the better and cleaner shots standing. Credit to Condit for taking them. The majority of the power strikes on the bottom were landed by GSP. Fedor's face looked much worse than Crocop's in their fight but we all know who won that fight on the ground and the feet.

Your posts insinuates that GSP only had the edge on takedowns and top control. That is ridiculous.

"You're just as delusional as Winklejohn in that case"

- In the case of saying I thought GSP won?

"Other than a kick, GSP landed the better and cleaner shots standing"

- "I wouldnt say Carlos won the overall standup battle but to say he did more damage is not incorrect imo."

"The majority of the power strikes on the bottom were landed by GSP"

- Depends what we consider "power strikes" on the bottom and how many we're actually talking about. Im not saying Condit beat the crap out of GSP from his guard, im not saying GSP landed no GNP in Condit's guard. What im saying is that GSP did not dominate the GNP portion of the ground battle. He was taking his share of shots from Condit all night in his guard and that did effect his game.

Yes, im familiar with the case of Fedor's face vs CC. Again, i already said i thought GSP won. Im didnt say whoever has more cosmetic/facial damage appearance loses. What Im saying is that GSP did not dominate the GNP portion of the ground battle and that GSP was taking his share of shots from Condit all night in his guard and that did effect his game.

"Your posts insinuates that GSP only had the edge on takedowns and top control. That is ridiculous."

Hmm, imo its more ridiculous for you to say I'm insinuating the above when i stated that "I wouldnt say Carlos won the overall standup battle" and that "I think GSP won."

I'm just agreeing with the notion that Condit could have done as much damage to GSP on the ground as GSP did to him. Its impossible to really know how exactly each was "damaged" inside but i saw Condit hitting away on GSP all night in his guard and i saw that did effect GSP's game there.

This is coming from a GSP fan, someone who was rooting for GSP and someone who is very familiar with his ground game. GSP was very much reacting and effected from Condit's reverse GNP and made it a very tough and close battle on the ground. Im not saying i think Condit won the ground poriton, I'm saying Condit made it close, competitive and made it tough for GSP.
11/22/12 7:33 PM
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Nexuscrawlers
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Samoa - GSP v Penn I was a split decision win; I would think that's a tougher win than 50-45 unanimous decision wins? Phone Post
That's why I hate the current scoring. A close round and a dominant round are both 10-9 (as long as no one was almost finished) Phone Post
11/22/12 7:38 PM
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KZTT_W85
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Stfu Phone Post
11/22/12 7:56 PM
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Wasa-B
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Looking back on GSP/BJ I,

I still hold the position that those who were calling for a 10-8 in R1 for BJ are delerious. BJ def won the round but that was a solid 10-9, not even close to a 10-8 discussion.

In terms of the damage discussion, that fight is interesting because BJ def "damaged" face but much of that was as a result of GSP's nose being clipped, a strike in which BJ upper cutted GSP's nose but the punch did not connect flushly on GSP's face. Then it appeared GSP's nose got all swollen and some of the surrounding nasal area. GSP's eye was also poked and that lead to some "damage" on his face and also effected his vision but it wasnt't even a flush landing strike.

BJ def hit GSP with the harder shots in R1 though. GSP had more volume of strikes iirc but BJ walked thru most of it.

So I would score that R1 a 10-9 for BJ but GSP looked much worse than he was actually hurt (as in rocked, queer street). But that was more a case of overrating BJ's effective striking on GSP. I think Condit's reverse GNP on GSP is being quite underated in that case.
11/22/12 7:59 PM
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Boofhead3
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fapout -
MartinLav - I don't think he did any damage from the bottom. The dammage was done from the kick and top position ground and pound of Carlos. He nearly finished him there...

Other then that it was pretty loopsided.

agreed.

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11/22/12 8:00 PM
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Boofhead3
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Boofhead3 -
fapout -
MartinLav - I don't think he did any damage from the bottom. The dammage was done from the kick and top position ground and pound of Carlos. He nearly finished him there...

Other then that it was pretty loopsided.

agreed.

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Damn the plus sign never works from my iphone Phone Post
11/22/12 8:04 PM
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TheRaider
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You want to see an ass whooping from the bottom, watch King Mo vs Mousasi.
11/22/12 8:11 PM
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Immaculata
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Condit did awesome. It was a phenomenal fight where Condit fought effectively off his back. I felt like a couple of those rnds. were half point rnds. if Judges were able to score it that way.
11/22/12 8:14 PM
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Samoa
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irishman84 -
Porkchop - 
Wasa-B - 
Porkchop - Too bad this isnt the ultimate damage causing championships. Also, if damage is the most important thing, how much does blood count for? Carlos was a bloody mess from the last minute of the first round till the end of the fight.

Carlos fought a great fight but Georges is undoubtedly the better fighter.

Dont think WJ once said Carlos was the better fighter and should have taken the decision.

He also did not say damage is the only factor. But as we know damage is a major factor. Actual damage should be weighed higher than superficial damage which is often what a cut and blood is. Im not saying Condit wasnt "hurt" at all by that elbow that caused the cut but he sure wasnt stunned or really hurt by it imo.

Asking "how much blood counts for in itself" is also the wrong view to take. Blood is superficial. In itself, it doesnt mean a whole lot. Cuts can be caused from strikes that do not actually hurt the fighters at all.

WJ also acknowledged the tds and top control and imposing GSP's will on the ground.

Damage is not a major factor to who wins the fight. The only thing that matters is how the fighters fight.

My point, which you must have missed, is that all damage is superficial unless it effects how the fighters fight.

If damage was the most important thing, no one would attack the body because that damage isn't as obvious as facial damage.

My other point is that WJ seems to be stating a case for Carlos winning the fight in his eyes. The better man won.

yeah ur right bro... Its crazy to weigh how physically damaged someone is over how many times they got tackled and controlled in determining who won a FIGHT. Who cares if after the fight is over the winner is sitting with an ice pack on his hamburgered face, obviously on queer street and in complete fucking agony while the loser is by comparison, QUITE FUCKING DANDY! Not to mention the fact that while GSP looked good at times and was effective particularly with that elbow, the true delusion is those people describing Condit's effectiveness as limited to "one headkick" when its impossible for any but the most moronic individuals to look at postfight GSP and conclude that one strike did all that damage. He was cut under both eyes and on the bridge of his nose, had an enormous hematoma on his right hemisphere (from the hk), and was knotted up/ purple from the eyebrows up from elbows/ strikes from the bottom. NBK WAS more effective from bottom and GSP's face is the proof
So did you score the fight for NBK? Phone Post
11/22/12 9:24 PM
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Porkchop
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irishman84 - 
Porkchop - 
Wasa-B - 
Porkchop - Too bad this isnt the ultimate damage causing championships. Also, if damage is the most important thing, how much does blood count for? Carlos was a bloody mess from the last minute of the first round till the end of the fight.

Carlos fought a great fight but Georges is undoubtedly the better fighter.

Dont think WJ once said Carlos was the better fighter and should have taken the decision.

He also did not say damage is the only factor. But as we know damage is a major factor. Actual damage should be weighed higher than superficial damage which is often what a cut and blood is. Im not saying Condit wasnt "hurt" at all by that elbow that caused the cut but he sure wasnt stunned or really hurt by it imo.

Asking "how much blood counts for in itself" is also the wrong view to take. Blood is superficial. In itself, it doesnt mean a whole lot. Cuts can be caused from strikes that do not actually hurt the fighters at all.

WJ also acknowledged the tds and top control and imposing GSP's will on the ground.

Damage is not a major factor to who wins the fight. The only thing that matters is how the fighters fight.

My point, which you must have missed, is that all damage is superficial unless it effects how the fighters fight.

If damage was the most important thing, no one would attack the body because that damage isn't as obvious as facial damage.

My other point is that WJ seems to be stating a case for Carlos winning the fight in his eyes. The better man won.

yeah ur right bro... Its crazy to weigh how physically damaged someone is over how many times they got tackled and controlled in determining who won a FIGHT. Who cares if after the fight is over the winner is sitting with an ice pack on his hamburgered face, obviously on queer street and in complete fucking agony while the loser is by comparison, QUITE FUCKING DANDY! Not to mention the fact that while GSP looked good at times and was effective particularly with that elbow, the true delusion is those people describing Condit's effectiveness as limited to "one headkick" when its impossible for any but the most moronic individuals to look at postfight GSP and conclude that one strike did all that damage. He was cut under both eyes and on the bridge of his nose, had an enormous hematoma on his right hemisphere (from the hk), and was knotted up/ purple from the eyebrows up from elbows/ strikes from the bottom. NBK WAS more effective from bottom and GSP's face is the proof

It sounds like you don't understand how fights are scored. If you want to compare the faces of the two competitors after every fight to score fights then that's fine. But that isn't how fights are scored and it's like that for a reason.

Bumps and bruises don't tell the story of who controlled the ring and had the other backing up the whole time. They don't show who bullied the other one around at will. They don't show who landed significantly more strikes in the fight. They only show who is more bruised up.

St. Pierre dominated every fight statistic and was in complete control of the fight except for that one head kick. And let me remind you that two of the three judges scored all 5 rounds for St. Pierre.

So if you want to pretend that physically dominating someone in a fight doesn't mean anything then go ahead but you are only making a fool of yourself.
11/22/12 9:30 PM
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Porkchop
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Wasa-B - 
Porkchop - 
Wasa-B - 
Porkchop - Too bad this isnt the ultimate damage causing championships. Also, if damage is the most important thing, how much does blood count for? Carlos was a bloody mess from the last minute of the first round till the end of the fight.

Carlos fought a great fight but Georges is undoubtedly the better fighter.

Dont think WJ once said Carlos was the better fighter and should have taken the decision.

He also did not say damage is the only factor. But as we know damage is a major factor. Actual damage should be weighed higher than superficial damage which is often what a cut and blood is. Im not saying Condit wasnt "hurt" at all by that elbow that caused the cut but he sure wasnt stunned or really hurt by it imo.

Asking "how much blood counts for in itself" is also the wrong view to take. Blood is superficial. In itself, it doesnt mean a whole lot. Cuts can be caused from strikes that do not actually hurt the fighters at all.

WJ also acknowledged the tds and top control and imposing GSP's will on the ground.

Damage is not a major factor to who wins the fight. The only thing that matters is how the fighters fight.

My point, which you must have missed, is that all damage is superficial unless it effects how the fighters fight.

If damage was the most important thing, no one would attack the body because that damage isn't as obvious as facial damage.

My other point is that WJ seems to be stating a case for Carlos winning the fight in his eyes. The better man won.

I think you're thinking that Im using "damage" synonomously with "superficial" or "cosmetic damage" (even though I made the distinction more than once).

In some ways I agree that "damage is superficial unless it effects how the fighters fight." Sometimes its hard to tell when someone is rocked when they actually are. But its impossible to know how much "damage" good looking strikes occur so the judges (and fans) largely do weigh strikes on how solid they look to land, etc as well. Obviously a strike that lands flush with reasonable force would be weighed higher than a glancing blow but its impossible to tell how much those flush strikes really hurt any given fighter all the time.

So it sounds like you're saying, unless you can visibly see a reaction or a change in strategy as a result from striking damage ("effects how a fighter fights"), "all damage is superficial," which of course is the furthest thing from the truth. And of course a change in strategy is impossible to determine all the time as a result from damage as well. They can happen to bait, to mix it up, etc.

You can't go assuming that someone is hurt and judging a fight on who you think is more hurt. It just doesn't work out.

Knockdowns count for something, when someone is visibly wabbled and when they get clocked flush as well.

But that doesn't fall under the category of damage. The damage isn't the important thing. The important thing is the momentum of the fight, if someone is hurt enough that it changes the way they fight and the shots that clearly land flush mean something in terms of points as well.

But the moment judges start scoring a fight on who is more busted up, they lose all credibility. All that matters is how the fight goes as far as techniques, momentum and control.

So sure, damage can effect the way the fighters fight, but if it doesn't, the damage doesn't mean jack shit in terms of the fight.
11/22/12 11:20 PM
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Wasa-B
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Dude, you are still using "damage" as in "cosmetic" or "superficial damage" when the distinction has been made.

Stop doing this.

The distinction has been made already.

Damaging your opponent matters in judging bouts in MMA (as does it in boxing, kickboxing, full contact striking sports). Its a revolutionary concept, i know.
11/22/12 11:32 PM
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Wasa-B
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"Bumps and bruises don't tell the story of who controlled the ring and had the other backing up the whole time."

- Continuing to use damage in terms of cosmetic damage (again). Backing the other up doesnt necessarily mean you're controlling the ring either.

"And let me remind you that two of the three judges scored all 5 rounds for St. Pierre."

- And let me remind you that UFC judges arent exactly authorities on understanding MMA, you know this, everyone knows this
- let me remind you that the judges awarded condit the bout vs diaz and let me remind you that you are saying backing the other up the whole time is what matters

"Bumps and bruises don't tell the story of who controlled the ring and had the other backing up the whole time...St. Pierre dominated every fight statistic"

- Statistics tell the whole story and measure everything now too? They surely dont measure who controlled the ring, who was backing up who.

"St. Pierre dominated every fight statistic and was in complete control of the fight except for that one head kick."

- Well, you're one of these guys. Not sure if its worth it but if you thought GSP was in complete control on the ground from beginning to end, i'll just lump you in with those who assume the guy on top is the guy in control.

GSP didnt say it was his toughest fight since Serra or whatever because all he endeared was one head kick. He didnt say he gave it everything he had for nothing either. Someone must have been pushing him. Someone must have been giving him a fight.
11/22/12 11:38 PM
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Wasa-B
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irishman84 - lmfao. Anyone writing the fact that GSP sustained a worse beating as owing to the fact that he "cuts easier" or that everyone shows damage differently is in denial/ lying to themselves. If u want to give the guy fights for control and take downs fine but thats no more legitmate than giving a guy a fight based on damage. and id say its less legit... damage seems a hell of a lot more relevant to who wins a fight than controlling position

It all matters but its hard to weigh in terms of numbers so you have to take everything into account in a round then simply ask who did more?

R3 was actually an interesting round to score because outside of the headkick and the follow up, GSP controlled the round. However, Condit not only did "damage" (as in hurt GSP) and dropped him, he had a good chance to finish the fight.

Next thing you'll know, we'll hear how close a guy comes to finishing a round doesnt matter either.

And we'll hear that since the UFC judges, judged it one way, that's that....oh wait...
11/23/12 9:46 AM
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SeanyBooy
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I guess this makes Carlos Condit a...

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