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UnderGround Forums >> Coach: Condit did as much damage from bottom


11/23/12 5:49 PM
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TheRaider
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Great posts Wasa-B.

I thought I saw some footage, maybe on Fuel of GSP walking back to locker room. He looked really beat up. Looked real sad too. Phone Post
11/23/12 5:50 PM
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burner22
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Dirt Lover - Why does he say "we" when talking about Condit, and "Georges" for Georges? I thought he was independent. Phone Post
Your thinking of Greg Jackson. Winklejohn was in condits corner Phone Post
11/23/12 5:52 PM
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burner22
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Wasa-B -
4thHorsemen - I didn't think it was a close fight at all. GSP dominated him, save for that minute or so in the third round. Other than that, Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever.

Condit didnt sweep GSP?

Condit was bashing GSP's head all night in his guard?

GSP wasnt defending other sweep and sub attempts?

GSP had his way on the ground all night?

Its 2012 fellas. We need to know the game a bit more.
Good post bro. Gsp was the better fighter but condit definitely put some work in Phone Post
11/23/12 6:02 PM
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Wasa-B
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burner22 - 
Wasa-B -
4thHorsemen - I didn't think it was a close fight at all. GSP dominated him, save for that minute or so in the third round. Other than that, Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever.

Condit didnt sweep GSP?

Condit was bashing GSP's head all night in his guard?

GSP wasnt defending other sweep and sub attempts?

GSP had his way on the ground all night?

Its 2012 fellas. We need to know the game a bit more.
Good post bro. Gsp was the better fighter but condit definitely put some work in Phone Post

Thanks fellas.

Exactly though. Though im a Condit fan, i was going for GSP. I thought GSP won. However, I did not see GSP having an easy time at all on the ground.

The Gracie Breakdown has some great insight into some of the finer things both guys were doing. I really think Zuffa could hire Rener (the more talkative guy?) to do some of these breakdowns with professional production for the PPV events to talk about what strategies or techniques to look for from each guy on the ground, what they usually do, what they need to watch out for.

Fans have come along way since way back, people cheer for passes and stuff but if people still think that Condit got dominated thru and thru on the ground, Zuffa needs some more fight education. This would also help them simmer the boo'ers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koCBxtoZnj4

Some of the things like GSP lowering his hips when Condit had his feet on hips to pass are easy to miss (due to camera angles, whether you trane or not) but things like GSP gettin swept and also the subs that Condit ws going for (knee bar, triangle), those are easy to spot.
11/23/12 6:03 PM
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Wasa-B
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forgot i can embed
11/23/12 6:06 PM
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4thHorsemen
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Wasa-B - 
4thHorsemen - I didn't think it was a close fight at all. GSP dominated him, save for that minute or so in the third round. Other than that, Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever.

Condit didnt sweep GSP?

Condit was bashing GSP's head all night in his guard?

GSP wasnt defending other sweep and sub attempts?

GSP had his way on the ground all night?

Its 2012 fellas. We need to know the game a bit more.

Read my post again. I didn't say Condit didn't do anything, I said Condit was unable mount any serious offense and whatever he did was pretty much instantly nullified by GSP. The fight wasn't all that competitive, GSP looked like the far superior fighter except for the brief moment in the third. Other than that, GSP dominated Condit. Did anybody think when it went to the judges that it was gonna be close? I highly doubt it. Heck, two of the judges even gave the third round to GSP, which I disagreed with but shows my point.

I get that people are trying to show their respect to Condit because of his never give up style and I agree with it, but to say the fight was very competitive or that Condit did very well is an insult to Condit. He didn't do well and was completely outmatched by a superior fighter.
11/23/12 6:57 PM
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Wasa-B
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4thHorsemen - 
Wasa-B - 
4thHorsemen - I didn't think it was a close fight at all. GSP dominated him, save for that minute or so in the third round. Other than that, Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever.

Condit didnt sweep GSP?

Condit was bashing GSP's head all night in his guard?

GSP wasnt defending other sweep and sub attempts?

GSP had his way on the ground all night?

Its 2012 fellas. We need to know the game a bit more.

Read my post again. I didn't say Condit didn't do anything, I said Condit was unable mount any serious offense and whatever he did was pretty much instantly nullified by GSP. The fight wasn't all that competitive, GSP looked like the far superior fighter except for the brief moment in the third. Other than that, GSP dominated Condit. Did anybody think when it went to the judges that it was gonna be close? I highly doubt it. Heck, two of the judges even gave the third round to GSP, which I disagreed with but shows my point.

I get that people are trying to show their respect to Condit because of his never give up style and I agree with it, but to say the fight was very competitive or that Condit did very well is an insult to Condit. He didn't do well and was completely outmatched by a superior fighter.

So I did read it again and you didnt say "Condit was unable to mount any serious offense," you said "Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever." Id say theres a bit of a diff there. ;p

I disagree that isnt wasnt competitive. On the ground it was very competitive which is why I posted those earlier questions. Are you thinking it wasnt competitive becauase GSP got the tds at will?

There's a whole world of stuff that was going on on the ground. Also, if it wasnt competitive, how come GSP never was able to tee off with GNP? His GNP campaign was not consistent at all. It was decent but more sporadic. And how come he couldnt get beyond half guard? Again, how come he was reacting or defending what Carlos was doing?

Condit made GSP work on the ground. It was very much a dog fight there and very competitive. If COndit was completely outmatched, GSP would have been teeing off consistently with GNP, really putting the hurt on Condit in a sustained manner, passing at will to not half but side and full mount, GNPing from mount, getting numerous sub attempts but he did none of that.

Regarding R3, i think that is a debatable round to score and comes down to the control vs damage/coming close to a finish arguement again.

Also, you can lose all 5 rounds and lose a dec 50-45 but the 10 must does not tell the entire story. A 50-45 can have each round in a way with the 1 guy edging out each round by a hair and still win 50-45. Im not saying GSP barely won each round but the 10 must tally does not necessarily show how close rounds are.
11/23/12 7:13 PM
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Wasa-B
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irishman84 - 
sacredhate - 
WWETopTeam - 
sacredhate - 
WWETopTeam - After the fight, Carlos Condit was looking for the finest vintage wines at Rashad's After party that rocked, while GSP was hooked up to IV's in the Emergency room as they ran CAT scans... YOU tell me who won!

after the fight GSP was declared "and still champion" and went home to a champions pay while Condit went to the back of the line.


Condit did amazing and was a gamer...but to declare that he won the fight? seriously? he came closer to beating GSP than anyone who hasn't...and looked better losing to GSP than anyone else has. that's it though.

GSP won the MMA match, Condit won the FIGHT!

Condit came closest to finishing GSP. Condit DROPPED GSP. Gsp did not drop condit. Condit's guard nullified GSP's top game where he could not get passed half guard for most of the fight. Condit on top postured up and GNP GSP so hard the fight was gonna get stopped.

Condit did most damage standing up. Condit did more damage on the ground despite limited time on top in comparison to GSP.

Condit's bjj stifled any damage from GSP other than a few punches getting through. In the 3rd round GSP LaynPrayed condit after taking damage standing up.

Condit landed numerous punishing strikes from his back.


Attempts to finish the fight + Damage > Control

Condit's guard didn't nullify GSP's top game as much as GSP's takedowns nullified Condit's ability to strike.

Condit won 50 seconds of the fight, then got overwhelmed again.

At best Condit can argue that he was competitive...but to say that Condit won based on 51 seconds of control where he landed strikes and 21 minutes where he successfully managed to not get too damaged or finished is silly.

Condit won 51 seconds of that fight. that is all. spin it however you want but GSP wanted to be on top of Condit and was, Condit wanted to stand up or scramble and couldn't.

nice troll though.

"Condit's guard didn't nullify GSP's top game as much as GSP's takedowns nullified Condit's ability to strike."
This is very logical stuff my friend and i like the way you are breaking down this debate. Now let me ask you: is there any consideration (scoring wise) for the fact that GSP's groundwork (TDs/ control) was a defensive tactic in response to being, to whatever degree, uncomfortable in the stand up realm? And if as most suggest GSP is in the dominant position on top after hitting the TD, should he then not be penalized to some degree for being nullified. This is one of the problems i see with rewarding position/ control, if you dont incentive-ize (sp)further advancement of position/ sincere attempts to finish by putting in place some form of scoring consequence for not capitalizing on said dom position you are welcoming stalling.

Irish, you bring up some good points though i think a more complex arguement.

I should start by saying I did think GSP won the bout but that since a large porition was spent on the ground and that it was quite competitive on the ground, its fair to say the fight was competitive.

As for the overall standup, id have to rewatch but GSP i think overall won that too.

I also dont subscribe necessarily about the whole "nullifying" thing. What is comes down to for me is not who's "nullifying" but who is pushing the fight or who is doing more?

Like on the ground, GSP was controlling, was passing (to half anyhow), did have some GNP but then Carlos was also GNPing, was also threatening subs and sweeps and got a sweep in fact (and imo this is a significant thing not so much for scoring but because i dont think GSP has ever been swept ever (or at least in the UFC).

Condit was able to pull this off imo because he was being so active with both angling to sub/sweep but also because he was peppering GSP's head all night and so GSP was not in full control the entire time he had Carlos on his back. It was a dog fight imo.

But to get into the whole penalizing so and so because they took a fight somewhere and didnt capitalize is way too much of a complicated thign to assess imo.

I think the incentive to stay active is already met with standups - which is another argument to itself. Are standups fair at all? If so, how long should they get? Some refs/orgs call them way quicker than others. Fighters get a free standp at the end of each round. But i also agree that they are a necessary evil not just for specator friendliness but to prevent stalling as well.

I also think the same reset rules or policy should be applied to "wall n stalling." As a grappler myself, i do think that when you've earned a clinch, you should be able to work with it and that you should have to KO someone in it or get a td within 10 seconds. But i think the refs need to take ino account on clinching when the other is pressing the other against the cage for too long of a period.

Yes, you should be able to work the guy in the clinch, dirty box, wear him down, carry your weight, set up tds methodically but since a round is only 5 min, i dont think its fair to pin someone up against it for 2 min straight if you arent really doing anything.

So i disagree with some points there but they are good discussion points.

As far as damage, there is no discussion on whether it matters imo. It matters but how its weighed along with everything else is just part of the bigger discussion of "who is doing more?"
11/23/12 7:20 PM
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Wasa-B
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TheRaider -  Great posts Wasa-B.

I thought I saw some footage, maybe on Fuel of GSP walking back to locker room. He looked really beat up. Looked real sad too. Phone Post

GSP was def beat up. Now, i completely agree that we should never judge fights/rounds on cosmetic damage, anyone that knows me knows ive never advocated that.

But GSP didnt get all those numerous bumps and bruises on his head from nothing either. Condit was bashing him all night from his guard. You could see the bumps/bruises quiet clearly in their post-fight presser. GSP was also holding ice to the side of his head where he got kicked.

I also agree though that GSP does seem to cut and swell up easier than most as well. Just like Fedor.

But yeah, GSP was def in a fight. He didnt have his way entirely outside of the kick.
11/23/12 7:20 PM
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lockon
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Those bumps and bruises are a clear indicator of some strikes hitting Georges' face, they don't just magically appear there on their own. You could argue judges shouldn't score cosmetic damage, which they don't, but they SHOULD score the live shots which cause them.

Members of this board also occasionally complain about fighters not having the ability to win rounds from the bottom, despite multiple sub attempts or effective strikes off of their back, which ARE in the scoring criteria.

"Fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler's attempt at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking, taking down an opponent to force a ground fight, creating threatening submission attempts, passing the guard to achieve mount, and creating striking opportunities."

Effective grappling doesn't always equal being on top, "controlling" someone by laying in there guard as they pepper you with small shots from the bottom, or are constantly looking for sub attempts while you do nothing, is not effective grappling. Go watch the second round of King Mo v. Mousasi and try to justify giving that round to Lawal off of "control". The rules which mention points being awarded for legal takedowns and reversals also mention active and threatening guards.

"Effective grappling is judged by considering the amount of successful executions of a legal takedown and reversals. Examples of factors to consider are take downs from standing position to mount position, passing the guard to mount position, and bottom position fighters using an active threatening guard."

I believe Georges won that fight with the way today's judges interpret the scoring criteria, but I definitely wouldn't mind these judges taking more active guards in higher consideration in regards to generating points.
11/23/12 7:22 PM
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Wasa-B
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I think part of the reason GSP was emotionally forth coming after the bout was because of the pressure/anxiety of the layoff,injury and fighting in front of Montreal but if Condit didnt give him a tough fight, i dont think he would have been as emotional here.
11/23/12 7:31 PM
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Wasa-B
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lockon - Those bumps and bruises are a clear indicator of some strikes hitting Georges' face, they don't just magically appear there on their own. You could argue judges shouldn't score cosmetic damage, which they don't, but they SHOULD score the live shots which cause them.

Members of this board also occasionally complain about fighters not having the ability to win rounds from the bottom, despite multiple sub attempts or effective strikes off of their back, which ARE in the scoring criteria.

"Fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler's attempt at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking, taking down an opponent to force a ground fight, creating threatening submission attempts, passing the guard to achieve mount, and creating striking opportunities."

Effective grappling doesn't always equal being on top, "controlling" someone by laying in there guard as they pepper you with small shots from the bottom, or are constantly looking for sub attempts while you do nothing, is not effective grappling. Go watch the second round of King Mo v. Mousasi and try to justify giving that round to Lawal off of "control". The rules which mention points being awarded for legal takedowns and reversals also mention active and threatening guards.

"Effective grappling is judged by considering the amount of successful executions of a legal takedown and reversals. Examples of factors to consider are take downs from standing position to mount position, passing the guard to mount position, and bottom position fighters using an active threatening guard."

I believe Georges won that fight with the way today's judges interpret the scoring criteria, but I definitely wouldn't mind these judges taking more active guards in higher consideration in regards to generating points.

Exactly. Great post.

What constitutes "effective" grappling and striking is a very grey area. And you'd have to be midly retarded at least to think that "damaging" or hurting someone with strikes is not "effective striking."

"Effective grappling doesn't always equal being on top, "controlling" someone by laying in there guard as they pepper you with small shots from the bottom, or are constantly looking for sub attempts while you do nothing, is not effective grappling. Go watch the second round of King Mo v. Mousasi and try to justify giving that round to Lawal off of "control". The rules which mention points being awarded for legal takedowns and reversals also mention active and threatening guards."

- Abso-fucking-lutely.

And not to say Condit was the eqivalent of Gegard and King Mo being GSP but there were absolutelhy portions of the ground action where Condit was the agggressor or initiator of the action with reverse GNP, sub and sweep attempts, etc.

That this is being overlooked is quite sad imo because it still shows the bias that many fans (and judges of course) that being on top automatically means you're winning and amidst "Members of this board also occasionally complain about fighters not having the ability to win rounds from the bottom, despite multiple sub attempts or effective strikes off of their back, which ARE in the scoring criteria."

Was it Horn/Prangley that was one of the, if not only fights in the UFC where the bottom guy won via decision? This was one area Pride def had a better view on.

A lot of the ground battles can be quite close though and you really have to understand grappling to see who's controlling or dictating the action there.

One recent fight i recall is the Mizugaki one, i cant remember if it was his fight in Macau or a few before but while he was getting some good GNP in, not just "scoring" (ie. making contact) but making solid contact (ie getting some real "damage"), he was also put on the defensive alot from the sweep/sub attempts from the bottom guy so while he may have been rightfully winning on the cards, it doesnt mean he was having his way completely either which is what many have said they thought about GSP/Condit.
11/23/12 7:39 PM
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Wasa-B
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GSP: "I was getting hit, it was painful...."
11/23/12 7:52 PM
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Chiron
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I hate agreeing with Winkeljohn but I think he's right about Condit doing as much damage. All in all Condit may have even done more damage.

Unfortunately all that matters in MMA is who is on top longer and who got the takedowns. Sadly, that's all most judges really care about.
11/23/12 7:54 PM
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Chiron
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Porkchop - Too bad this isnt the ultimate damage causing championships. Also, if damage is the most important thing, how much does blood count for? Carlos was a bloody mess from the last minute of the first round till the end of the fight.

Carlos fought a great fight but Georges is undoubtedly the better fighter.

Absolutely stupid comment. You do realize damage is the most important, if not the only thing that actually matters in a fight, short of a finish right? Everything else is only important if it actually results in one of those two things. Otherwise it was all for nothing.
11/23/12 8:02 PM
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Chiron
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Wasa-B - "Mike Winkeljohn: Well you know what? I was definitely impressed with his warrior spirit but I look back at the fight and I know we were losing the fight because Georges was on top, but honestly, look at Georges' face after. Really, we probably did as much damage if not more from the bottom as Georges did from the top. He was on top controlling and imposing his will. He got the takedown points. In the stand-up, of course, we hurt him more. There's no doubt Carlos was a great warrior and he was in the game.

I'll tell you what. If we would have had a round or more of that, that would have taken its toll on Georges because we weren't going anywhere."


Most of you need to take the Winkeljohn hate glasses off and watch the fight again. This is coming from a fan of both but someone who was still ultimately going for GSP and I agree generally with what he is saying above.

Arent we complaining all the time about the guy on the bottom automatically losing decisions/rounds/etc in the eyes of the judges by virtue of being on his back?

WJ acknowledges the points GSP should have gotten for the tds and also the fact that "He was on top controlling and imposing his will." But I agree that Condit probably did as much damage to GSP with his reverse GNP as GSP did with his GNP. GSP neither had a huge volume of the GNP or huge quality shots either. Yes, he had some good elbows though just because they cut does not mean they hurt (were solid connecting blows). Condit was actually probably more active with his GNP than GSP and thus probably had more volume in that dept.

Condit also had a sweep though GSP reversed back. Condit also went for subs though nothing of the "catch" type or nothing that locked but he was working. GSP passed to half guard all night but was not able to progress further.

All in all, like ive been saying it both a technical battle and dog fight on the ground. It was just a great battle period on the ground between the 2.

As far as WJ saying Condit hurting GSP more in the standup, that could also easily be true as GSP scored in the standup but did not connect with a single really damaging blow iirc. Now, I think GSP won and I was also rooting for GSP. But most of you cannot separate your Winkeljohn hate from his statements here. I dont think he's said anything controversial. Yall just dont like him.

Great post.
11/23/12 10:53 PM
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Bick Koxer
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FlaccidJoe Isn't Elite -  All of the damage happened in the follow-up to the head kick, not from the bottom. Also, GSP won the stand up outside of the kick. Not sure what fight he was watching. Phone Post

This 100%.  Carlos did great but this guy is just babbling nonsense.

11/24/12 2:58 PM
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Wasa-B
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Bick Koxer - 
FlaccidJoe Isn't Elite -  All of the damage happened in the follow-up to the head kick, not from the bottom. Also, GSP won the stand up outside of the kick. Not sure what fight he was watching. Phone Post

This 100%.  Carlos did great but this guy is just babbling nonsense.


GSP was not hit by Condit on the ground the entire bout.









GSP did not get any tds either.
11/25/12 12:04 AM
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Porkchop
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Chiron - 
Porkchop - Too bad this isnt the ultimate damage causing championships. Also, if damage is the most important thing, how much does blood count for? Carlos was a bloody mess from the last minute of the first round till the end of the fight.

Carlos fought a great fight but Georges is undoubtedly the better fighter.

Absolutely stupid comment. You do realize damage is the most important, if not the only thing that actually matters in a fight, short of a finish right? Everything else is only important if it actually results in one of those two things. Otherwise it was all for nothing.

How about we don't score fights until the press conference then?

Everyone seems to be talking about how beat up GSP looked an hour after the fight compared to Condit.

Let's not call fights until an hour after when we can tell who is more beat up.

Don't be dumb, all that matters are the techniques and who fought better.
11/25/12 12:46 AM
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Porkchop
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I think at the heart of this issue is the difference between the two main types of fans.

One type believes that all fighters should always be going for the kill at all costs. They dislike game-planning and think that a fighter that fights to win rather than finishing at all costs is a coward. They also believe that fighting is a form of entertainment.

The other type feels that fighters have the right to fight however they want and as long as they are fighting within the rules and show that they can win within those rules then they deserve to win and be congratulated for it. They admire game-planning and the strategies are as interesting as seeing two guys who have no game-plan just slugging it out. Maybe even more interesting to them is the strategy. These fans don't believe that fighters owe them an "exciting at all costs" fight and they also believe that they are just privileged to see the best fighters in the world facing off against each other.

I'm guessing that this difference of opinion boils down to this.

The fact that damage (aside from the obvious damage like knockdowns and shots that hurt a fighter heavily) is not a judging criteria is evident but some feel that it should be a criteria.... That is the difference in opinions here.
11/25/12 12:47 AM
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Porkchop
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And I'm fine with leaving it at that. If someone wants to think that the faces of the fighters should be compared at the end of a fight then they can go on thinking that. It'll never happen and nor should it but they can keep on living the dream for all I care.
11/25/12 12:51 AM
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yellow wrkahlc
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Porkchop - And I'm fine with leaving it at that. If someone wants to think that the faces of the fighters should be compared at the end of a fight then they can go on thinking that. It'll never happen and nor should it but they can keep on living the dream for all I care.

Gotta admit though, his face is pretty boom boom, fren.

11/25/12 4:41 AM
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4thHorsemen
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Wasa-B - 
4thHorsemen - 
Wasa-B - 
4thHorsemen - I didn't think it was a close fight at all. GSP dominated him, save for that minute or so in the third round. Other than that, Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever.

Condit didnt sweep GSP?

Condit was bashing GSP's head all night in his guard?

GSP wasnt defending other sweep and sub attempts?

GSP had his way on the ground all night?

Its 2012 fellas. We need to know the game a bit more.

Read my post again. I didn't say Condit didn't do anything, I said Condit was unable mount any serious offense and whatever he did was pretty much instantly nullified by GSP. The fight wasn't all that competitive, GSP looked like the far superior fighter except for the brief moment in the third. Other than that, GSP dominated Condit. Did anybody think when it went to the judges that it was gonna be close? I highly doubt it. Heck, two of the judges even gave the third round to GSP, which I disagreed with but shows my point.

I get that people are trying to show their respect to Condit because of his never give up style and I agree with it, but to say the fight was very competitive or that Condit did very well is an insult to Condit. He didn't do well and was completely outmatched by a superior fighter.

So I did read it again and you didnt say "Condit was unable to mount any serious offense," you said "Condit was unable to mount any offense whatsoever." Id say theres a bit of a diff there. ;p

I disagree that isnt wasnt competitive. On the ground it was very competitive which is why I posted those earlier questions. Are you thinking it wasnt competitive becauase GSP got the tds at will?

There's a whole world of stuff that was going on on the ground. Also, if it wasnt competitive, how come GSP never was able to tee off with GNP? His GNP campaign was not consistent at all. It was decent but more sporadic. And how come he couldnt get beyond half guard? Again, how come he was reacting or defending what Carlos was doing?

Condit made GSP work on the ground. It was very much a dog fight there and very competitive. If COndit was completely outmatched, GSP would have been teeing off consistently with GNP, really putting the hurt on Condit in a sustained manner, passing at will to not half but side and full mount, GNPing from mount, getting numerous sub attempts but he did none of that.

Regarding R3, i think that is a debatable round to score and comes down to the control vs damage/coming close to a finish arguement again.

Also, you can lose all 5 rounds and lose a dec 50-45 but the 10 must does not tell the entire story. A 50-45 can have each round in a way with the 1 guy edging out each round by a hair and still win 50-45. Im not saying GSP barely won each round but the 10 must tally does not necessarily show how close rounds are.

Sorry yes that's exactly what I mean... That Condit was unable to mount any serious offense whatsoeverever. I don't consider him throwing punches and elbows from off his back as offense, rather as defensive measures. So yes, he was unable to mount anemy serious offense except for the third round.

We can keep going back and forth on this so it's pretty pointless. If you felt that fight was conpetitive then I dunno what to say. I thought it was another dominating performance by GSP in every round except the third. at no other point did I, or anyone around me, feel like Condit was in the fight or was getting the better of GSP, which is pretty much the definition of a competitive fight.
11/25/12 7:35 AM
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Entreri
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GSP damaged Carlos quite a bit from the ground. Carlos was also bleeding a river.

95% of damage Carlos did was from that kick and connected with some strikes as George recovered.

Minus that, GSP would look like he usually does after a fight.
11/25/12 8:48 AM
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Dedicated1
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Edited: 11/25/12 8:50 AM
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