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BJJGround Forum >> 2 points for taking the back with no hooks in BJJ?


11/23/12 11:13 AM
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Calibur1980
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Marcos Avellan -
Calibur1980 -  I think this would just make BJJ more unrealistic. No one uses an active turtle because no matter how well you sweep your opponent from there you get no points.

You already get an advantage putting someone in turtle.

Now we want to make turtle even less explorable for giving points for just getting on top?

That's crazy when you consider all the utility it has in MMA. You can't call turtle an inferior position and still say the guard isn't. Phone Post

Your post confuses me...

You said that "no one uses an active turtle because no matter how well you sweep your opponent from there, you get no points,"... that isn't true?  If you sweep your opponent from turtle, you do get two points... no?

You also said, "That's crazy when you consider all the utility it has in MMA."

Are you arguing that the turtle has as much utility in MMA as the guard?  And the little utility the turtle does have in MMA would not translate to real fighting... the "no strikes to the back of the head and spine" and "no knees/kicks to a grounded opponent" rules really give the turtle the little utility it has.  In MMA, the vast majority does not use the turtle as an offensive position, but rather people bail out to turtle when being overwhelmed by strikes (which only works for them becuase of the striking rules on the ground) or when trying to get back up to their feet...

If we were going to make a list of all the submissions and sweeps in MMA that have happened from the turtle versus from the guard... which do you think would be higher?

 

Last I checked IBJJF rifles state you get no points for reversals from turtle.

In MMA people get to their hands and knees to get to their feet constantly. Not to mention singles, and sit outs etc.

Yeah, you can be finished from the position with knees, but its usually transitioning from other strikes. That's like saying guard isnt useful because guys who catch flash knocked down get KOd in guard. Phone Post
11/23/12 12:20 PM
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Marcos Avellan
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Calibur1980 - 
Marcos Avellan -
Calibur1980 -  I think this would just make BJJ more unrealistic. No one uses an active turtle because no matter how well you sweep your opponent from there you get no points.

You already get an advantage putting someone in turtle.

Now we want to make turtle even less explorable for giving points for just getting on top?

That's crazy when you consider all the utility it has in MMA. You can't call turtle an inferior position and still say the guard isn't. Phone Post

Your post confuses me...

You said that "no one uses an active turtle because no matter how well you sweep your opponent from there, you get no points,"... that isn't true?  If you sweep your opponent from turtle, you do get two points... no?

You also said, "That's crazy when you consider all the utility it has in MMA."

Are you arguing that the turtle has as much utility in MMA as the guard?  And the little utility the turtle does have in MMA would not translate to real fighting... the "no strikes to the back of the head and spine" and "no knees/kicks to a grounded opponent" rules really give the turtle the little utility it has.  In MMA, the vast majority does not use the turtle as an offensive position, but rather people bail out to turtle when being overwhelmed by strikes (which only works for them becuase of the striking rules on the ground) or when trying to get back up to their feet...

If we were going to make a list of all the submissions and sweeps in MMA that have happened from the turtle versus from the guard... which do you think would be higher?

 

Last I checked IBJJF rifles state you get no points for reversals from turtle.

In MMA people get to their hands and knees to get to their feet constantly. Not to mention singles, and sit outs etc.

Yeah, you can be finished from the position with knees, but its usually transitioning from other strikes. That's like saying guard isnt useful because guys who catch flash knocked down get KOd in guard. Phone Post

Wow, if that is the case, then THAT rule needs to be changed (about no sweep points from turtle).

Yeah, standing up is pretty much the best recourse for the turtle, but even then, the best stand-ups and reversals from turtle, in MMA, tend to happen within 3 seconds.

For me, the way I judge if a position is inferior or not is by thinking to myself, "if I was five minutes into a match, what position would I prefer to be in..." and I think that in a fight, I'd rather be in my guard then have somebody behind me... I don't know, I think it is a lot more bad news to roll over to turtle five minutes into a fight versus having the person in my guard.  Yes, stand-ups are great (I'm a wrestler too) but a lot can go wrong when they are behind you.

 

11/23/12 12:21 PM
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Marcos Avellan
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deepu - 
burner22 - 
Marcos Avellan -
Baroquen Record - 
joshjitsu - Nah, I can see an advantage but not 2 points. I would rather see 2 points for a crucifix from the back before that. Phone Post
How about no advantages at all and have whatever would have been an advantage count as 1 point. Phone Post

I like even a point for the back... something.  However, I wouldn't like to give a point for everything that is currently ruled an advantage... imagine the controversy when somebody gets a point for a shaky looking submission or gets a point for a near sweep or takedown...

But taking the back with no hooks, with three seconds control, is a definitive position... not as subjective as deciding to give points for a near takedown, sweep, or submission.

So what you define as 'taking the back' then. Seatbelt grip? Double unders? Or just having the guy in turtle and being behind him? Phone Post

This. How do you define 'Taking the back' without hooks? Even worse is you have side mount and the guy underneath turns away exposing his back ... not quite turtle, but almost.

I guess both knees on the mat with any form of locked hands around the opponent.

11/23/12 2:42 PM
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liquidrob
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Just get rid of sweeps being worth points and no advantages first

If the guard is considered a neautrel position how is it worth points to sweep someone and be in there guard? Doesn't make sense
11/23/12 3:44 PM
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FreestyleJJ
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I think a simpler rule would be to make it so turtling doesn't stop the pass points. I start to pass your guard, you turn your back , I show control for 3 seconds, that's a pass to me. The only reason people give their back up half the time is to avoid the points.

Yes, you could still turn to turtle so that you can do a roll back to your guard, but that tactic will happen before 3 seconds of control can be established.


The other question this made me think of is if you did score the position for 2 pts, would you still get 4 more points for hooks in? Or maybe break it up so you get 2 pts for no hooks and 2 more pts for hooks in, limit to one set of scores per back take.

Also, how is a snap down to spin behind(folk style wrestling style takedown) scored in ibjff today? Do you get 2 take down pts for it or nothing? Phone Post
11/23/12 4:08 PM
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trianglegrrl
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FreestyleJJ -  I think a simpler rule would be to make it so turtling doesn't stop the pass points. I start to pass your guard, you turn your back , I show control for 3 seconds, that's a pass to me. The only reason people give their back up half the time is to avoid the points.

Yes, you could still turn to turtle so that you can do a roll back to your guard, but that tactic will happen before 3 seconds of control can be established.


The other question this made me think of is if you did score the position for 2 pts, would you still get 4 more points for hooks in? Or maybe break it up so you get 2 pts for no hooks and 2 more pts for hooks in, limit to one set of scores per back take.

Also, how is a snap down to spin behind(folk style wrestling style takedown) scored in ibjff today? Do you get 2 take down pts for it or nothing? Phone Post

"I start to pass your guard, you turn your back , I show control for 3 seconds, that's a pass to me."

That's a really good idea.
11/23/12 9:22 PM
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HoldYerGround
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"You said that "no one uses an active turtle because no matter how well you sweep your opponent from there, you get no points,"... that isn't true? If you sweep your opponent from turtle, you do get two points... no?"



Actually I'm very confident that reversals from the turtle position are not scored. Sweeps in BJJ must begin from the "guard" position.
11/23/12 9:23 PM
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HoldYerGround
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"Also, how is a snap down to spin behind(folk style wrestling style takedown) scored in ibjff today? Do you get 2 take down pts for it or nothing?"

It is two points.
11/23/12 9:25 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Couldn't agree more on the whole body triangle = back points thing.
11/23/12 9:36 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Fuzzy Badfeet - 

its just too hrd to define anything else as taking the back. you can have an over under grip (seatbelt, and not quite be on the back, you can have double unders and not quite be there, but if you have two hooks in then you are definitely on the back. I think there should be points for body trianglew for sure, but a "hands only" back control scoring system would add even more subjectivity to a sport that is seemingly already too subjective. Allot of guys are already playing "ref roulette", no need to continue down this path...


Fuzzy is right. We need to remove as much ref interpretation from the sport as possible. We just can't count on the officials so we need strong institutions and regulations in place to make up for it.



IMO, I'm one of the "turtle is a position to escape with" crew. I see a lot of people in MMA escape using the turtle position (I also think escapes should be scored in BJJ like in folkstyle). Marcos' idea that most escapes happen within three seconds may be true, I can't verify that as we are only working with anecdotal data and a very specific window of time. Here I turn back to Fuzzy's comments about the refs, the LAST thing we want to be doing is giving them more subjective decisions to make.
11/23/12 9:41 PM
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Koga
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If the opponent is flat on his stomach, you can get 4 points for mount with no hooks. I often find it easier to flatten an opponent when I have the back than to get both hooks in, most don't expect it. Phone Post
11/23/12 9:47 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Marcos Avellan - 

For years, I've been thinking that this should be the case.  For instance...

If grappler A pulls guard, then grappler B proceeds to double stack him, knee cut across pass, etc., and puts all sorts of unholy pressure on the bottom man, passing his guard many times momentarily, but bottom man (grappler A) avoids the pass points by bailing out to fours seven or eight times in the match... Grappler B goes for the hooks, goes for submissions, etc., but can't finish... and if all of a sudden, grappler A gets up and does a single takedown with 10 seconds left... Grappler A wins?

I don't know if you can visualize the scenario I'm talking about - but it looks really weird when it happens.

Personally, I'm against penalty-free guard pulling - but I can accept it.  You are going into a somewhat nuetral position on the ground, where a good submission artist can attack with lots of subs and sweeps... however, from bottom turtle, your options are relatively limited... the only reliable subs you got a kimura and a rolling kneebar and a very limited selection of sweeps... one can argue that there are more or less just as much sweeps and submissions available from bottom side control.

A lot of the scoring for positions was supposed to be to reward good positioning for self defense... but taking the back with no hooks is definitely better than being in the guard... a lot more better than an advantage point is worth (IMO). 

In my opinion, taking the back with no hooks, with three seconds of control, should be two points... a point less than a full guard pass to side control.

What do you guys think?

 


How does this sound?

"If grappler A pulls guard, then grappler B proceeds to double stack him, knee cut across pass, etc., and puts all sorts of unholy pressure on the bottom man, passing his guard many times momentarily, but bottom man (grappler A) avoids the pass points by bailing out to fours seven or eight times in the match... Grappler B goes for the hooks, goes for submissions, etc., but can't finish... and if all of a sudden, grappler A gets up, Grappler B pulls guard and Grappler A is able to pass to side control at the last second... Grappler A wins?"

"Grappler B comes out in a freestyle wrestling match and is ragdolling grappler A across the mat for 1:50 of the first period, but grappler A keeps a strong whizzer at every opportunity and is even doing the splits resisting scrappy single legs from grappler B. In the last ten seconds grappler A hits an ankle pick forcing B to belly down and wins the period? WTF?"


I think just the way the scenario is written is a very extreme example and makes it seem like grappler B should have won. If Grappler B was attacking so aggressively and had so many openings to score, why didn't he? To me it seems more like B has technical holes in his game rather than there is something wrong with the rules.

IMO the real problem with the hypothetical scenario you posed was that Grappler A should be penalized -2 for the guard pull in the first place.
11/23/12 9:48 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Koga -  If the opponent is flat on his stomach, you can get 4 points for mount with no hooks. I often find it easier to flatten an opponent when I have the back than to get both hooks in, most don't expect it. Phone Post

What kind of techniques do you use to do this? Just break them down with a half or spiral?
11/23/12 9:50 PM
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HoldYerGround
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"You are going into a somewhat nuetral position on the ground, where a good submission artist can attack with lots of subs and sweeps... however, from bottom turtle, your options are relatively limited... the only reliable subs you got a kimura and a rolling kneebar and a very limited selection of sweeps... one can argue that there are more or less just as much sweeps and submissions available from bottom side control."

The thing is that from bottom side you are in jeopardy of many submissions. In bottom turtle there are very few submissions that you can be attacked with directly from that position (without putting hook(s) in).
11/23/12 9:51 PM
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HoldYerGround
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I agree with Marcos that the guard pull should be penalized (although he accepts it) but not that the turtle should be scored.
11/23/12 10:12 PM
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Marcos Avellan
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Edited: 11/23/12 10:46 PM
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HoldYerGound, although we may not agree on turtle - I definitely agree on penalties for guard pulls and +1 for escapes... and I once ran a tournament with those rules, full of BJJ black belts, and it was a blast.

What we did was -1 for guard pulling and +1 for escapes... so the theory was that if you pulled guard and later got back to your feet... since nothing was accomplished - the score reflected that. 

However, if I took you down (2 points) and you later got back up and got the escape point - I was still up by one point... and the fact that you got back up to your feet shows more technique than a person that just stayed stuck on their back (2-0).

The result was a much higher paced set of matches, with people pressuring to get back up to their feet while others worked hard to keep them down and pass.  I remember being worried that some of the old school Brazilians would be pissed but they actually liked it.  I remember I had Renato Tavares compete versus Paul Rodriguez in a pretty epic lightweight match.

We did points for turtle as well and I don't remember it being controversial.  Somebody goes to their knees, somebody gets behind them, three seconds go by... points.

But yeah, that sucks that no sweeps can be scored from turtle in IBJJF, I think that is pretty sucky.  So if you are on your knees and quickly turn into them and snatch a leg and run them over, is that no points as well?  Wow.  Seems pretty illogical to me.

11/23/12 10:26 PM
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the turtle is a cheap way out and would leave you wide open 2 elbows to the back of the head.

you should get a point if this is how the pass is avoided

11/23/12 10:55 PM
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Marcos Avellan
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Also, something I don't think I saw at no-gi worlds, but maybe I'm wrong, but there was no motioning of time passed before scoring a position.

For instance, in wrestling, when counting seconds for back exposure points, the referree waves his hand, palm down, across his whole body (sort of like one arm of a baseball umpire's "safe" call), signifying a second, so after three big waves, it was points.  By doing this, it would eliminate some of the perceived controversy behind, "where's the points for the pass ref?!"

If they do that already, my bad, my first IBJJF event was the no-gi worlds and I don't remember seeing that.  You would see someone pass and just wait for points, like if it were a mystery when it would come up.  It shouldn't be that way, the reffing can be clear.

11/24/12 7:57 AM
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trianglegrrl
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HoldYerGround - "You said that "no one uses an active turtle because no matter how well you sweep your opponent from there, you get no points,"... that isn't true? If you sweep your opponent from turtle, you do get two points... no?"



Actually I'm very confident that reversals from the turtle position are not scored. Sweeps in BJJ must begin from the "guard" position.

This is true, but I actually screwed up reffing a match by interpreting it too literally. The sweep started from guard, and the guy on the bottom turtled before he finished his sweep. He then hit the sweep and came on top, but I didn't give him two points because the reversal was from turtle. The head ref corrected me and said that because it started from guard and the turtle was an intermediate position for the sweep, I should have given the two points.

Funny thing about that match was that the guy who did the sweep was looking at me for points and I said, "no points. Keep going." There were 30 seconds or so left in the match, and he was down by two points, so the sweep would have tied (and he would have won on advantages). Rather than arguing, he shrugged, turned up the intensity, passed the other guy's guard, and won the match.
11/25/12 9:51 AM
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HoldYerGround
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Marcos Avellan - 

HoldYerGound, although we may not agree on turtle - I definitely agree on penalties for guard pulls and +1 for escapes... and I once ran a tournament with those rules, full of BJJ black belts, and it was a blast.

What we did was -1 for guard pulling and +1 for escapes... so the theory was that if you pulled guard and later got back to your feet... since nothing was accomplished - the score reflected that. 

However, if I took you down (2 points) and you later got back up and got the escape point - I was still up by one point... and the fact that you got back up to your feet shows more technique than a person that just stayed stuck on their back (2-0).

The result was a much higher paced set of matches, with people pressuring to get back up to their feet while others worked hard to keep them down and pass.  I remember being worried that some of the old school Brazilians would be pissed but they actually liked it.  I remember I had Renato Tavares compete versus Paul Rodriguez in a pretty epic lightweight match.

We did points for turtle as well and I don't remember it being controversial.  Somebody goes to their knees, somebody gets behind them, three seconds go by... points.

But yeah, that sucks that no sweeps can be scored from turtle in IBJJF, I think that is pretty sucky.  So if you are on your knees and quickly turn into them and snatch a leg and run them over, is that no points as well?  Wow.  Seems pretty illogical to me.


That tournament sounds awesome and I'm glad it was successful.

I agree that sweeps from turtle should be scored, especially techniques like the Peterson roll which can land you in side control.

In fact, I think BJJ scoring should be 100% consequentialist. Any time you go from top to bottom should be 2 points, whether its from the guard or not (like a reversal in folkstyle). Any time two standing players hit the mat and the player who lands on top should be awarded two points. Players should be awarded points for side control, not for passing the guard, etc.

11/25/12 12:41 PM
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Marcos Avellan
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Edited: 11/25/12 12:42 PM
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"In fact, I think BJJ scoring should be 100% consequentialist. Any time you go from top to bottom should be 2 points, whether its from the guard or not (like a reversal in folkstyle). Any time two standing players hit the mat and the player who lands on top should be awarded two points. Players should be awarded points for side control, not for passing the guard, etc."

That is exactly how we did it.  I did this tournament back in 2003 and I was still fresh out of wrestling, so the rules were based on a similar philosophy.  It didn't matter who initiated the movement - it was who ended up on top that mattered (like in real fight).  It was less controversial because it is more clear cut - it's who is on top that gets the points.

I might have the rules somewhere, I think my wife kept a scrap book of all my old tournaments and fight show promotions... if I can find it, I'll post it up and see what you guys think.

11/25/12 12:53 PM
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flowwiththego
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I think it's decent idea. The given scenario is true in most tourneys happening across the country. People play into the rules. It's not the end of the world. I do think it makes sense to award points based on real life "would be" advantageous positions.

On the sport bjj side, alot of guy like to set things up from there without committing to the back. It would be nice to score from there. This coming from a guy who has lost bc someone scored and decided to turtle late in the match to avoid being scores on. Phone Post
11/25/12 4:58 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Marcos Avellan - 

"In fact, I think BJJ scoring should be 100% consequentialist. Any time you go from top to bottom should be 2 points, whether its from the guard or not (like a reversal in folkstyle). Any time two standing players hit the mat and the player who lands on top should be awarded two points. Players should be awarded points for side control, not for passing the guard, etc."

That is exactly how we did it.  I did this tournament back in 2003 and I was still fresh out of wrestling, so the rules were based on a similar philosophy.  It didn't matter who initiated the movement - it was who ended up on top that mattered (like in real fight).  It was less controversial because it is more clear cut - it's who is on top that gets the points.

I might have the rules somewhere, I think my wife kept a scrap book of all my old tournaments and fight show promotions... if I can find it, I'll post it up and see what you guys think.


Sounds awesome. I hope the big tournaments start adopting a similar philosophy to scoring.

11/25/12 8:55 PM
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Marcos Avellan
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Found the rules... I'll scan them tomorrow

11/26/12 6:25 PM
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A_Butler
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HolyAvengerP5 - ^ you train mma and SD, but not bjj and you are worried about silly back points in sport bjj?
I don't think you know who you're replying to. The green name has a very significant meaning..... Phone Post

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