UnderGround Forums
 

S&C UnderGround >> Mike Mentzer and HIT

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

11/28/12 2:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
262 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/28/12 2:20 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11889
Taku - 


Doug,



Bry Bry said "id like to see how a non-roided person could do with Mentzers rep scheme..i think there is a good reason you dont see people using this method..."



Leigh,



Yes, when you have a lot of training experience, and you know that the next one won't go up...That's training to failure in my book.



This one reason why many "Hard Training" advocates enjoy using machines. They can safely go to failure without the need of a spotter. I do a lot of my solo lifiting in a power rack for the same reason. I set the saftey bars at the bottom of the range for a given lift, and then I will do reps until I have no choice but to lower in onto the safety bars.



TAKU


Gotcha, but i thought you said "HIT training" for you meant something other than Menzter's work. I think Mentzer's original schemes (which i assume bry bry meant) are extreme, and i wouldn't recommend them for anyone. Would you?
11/28/12 2:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6327

Hey Doug,

You're correct. I was being less literal than you (damn philosophy guy) and made a jump.  Agree MM's older routines were very extreme, and there is little doubt that he was on the juice, and was a case of super genetics as well.

TAKU

11/28/12 4:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
262 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11893
I feel you homie.
11/28/12 4:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WaltJ
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/19/03
Posts: 26384
TTT for a very cool and informative thread.

Not long ago I picked up "The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer" for $5 at a bargain bookstore.

His ideas are very interesting and like Shatner said in his write-up, helped move the training process in a new, different direction.

You can debate whether or not he invented or whether it's the "best", but there's certainly a lot of good that came from it.

Also, IMO, Mentzer is one of the best, pound for pound, at what he did. Not saying it was all because of HIT, but just saying, nonetheless.
11/29/12 4:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/29/12 4:05 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6329

The secret to building muscle lies in the relationship between the total demands (stress) placed on a muscle through resistance training and the time between, and frequency of these bouts of stress (recovery time). Basically, muscle building is contingent on the effectiveness of a workout in stimuating growth and the time given to recover from the workout. Muscles require a stimulus which is strong enough to induce an adaptive response (i.e., an increase in muscular size and/or strength) and ample time to recover and reap the full benefits (adaptation) of that stimualtion. If either the stimulus is not strong enough or the recovery time is not long enough or both, then muscle development cannot occur. 

 

 



The dilemma faced by most trainees is they don't know how much or little exercise is necessary to stimulate muscle development so they try anything and everything and hope that it works. The better approach--the smarter approach--is to first learn what your requirements are and then design your regimen around them. The best way to do this, is start with the least amout, and then work up from there.

 

TAKU

11/30/12 8:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6336

Bry Bry,

got it. I mis-understood. My experience has been that this style of training is better for non-juiced folks. Thee super Gene, super Juice guys can do almost anything.

In my career, many of the best built, strongest, and most fit guys, have trained in this manner (H.I.T. style).

TAKU

12/1/12 12:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jacks Wasted Life
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/25/08
Posts: 1126
MM's theories always made a lot of sense to me but I never got great real world results from them. They definitely work for some people though - I had a very ectomorphic friend gain 8-10 lbs and a lot of strength in a month of MM style training.

I think the concepts of (relatively) low volume and frequency are very useful for most trainees. But I get better results doing 3-5 progressively heavier sets and training to a rep goal rather than failure. If I can't hit a rep goal, I typically go to 1 rep short of failure. But I seem to burn out quickly when training to failure on a regular basis. Phone Post
12/1/12 1:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
diaz 125
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/7/12
Posts: 7
when doing hit, do you do the movements as fast as possible?
12/1/12 2:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Badmonkey
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/15/07
Posts: 7520
I play with the rep speed.

I was recovering from an injury and tried more of a "superslow" method of 6-10 second positive and 6-10 seconds on the negative: i really liked the feeling, results, and i have been training like this once a week for the most part for the last 2 years injury free.

The other day of the week i just concentrate on moving the weight as quickly as i can without and lowering it in a very controlled manner. Dorian Yates put it well; he said imagine(in the case of a bench press)that the lowering of the weight is the controlled compression of a spring/coil, and that the pressing of it is the release/explosion of all that compressed energy. .. MM recommended roughly 3-4 seconds for the positive and negative portion of an exercise, but told me that what he was really looking for was to minimize momentum, and the exact time as less important.

12/5/12 11:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6341

Badmonkey = STRONG LIKE BULL!!

This stuff works people.

TAKU

12/14/12 10:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JJJJJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/17/12
Posts: 120
@Taku: have you heard of Drew Baye? I stumbled on a video of his on youtube talking about h.i.t. Curious what you think Phone Post
12/14/12 12:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
262 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11932
That reminded me... what happened to JJJ from years back...
12/14/12 1:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6367

JJJJ,

I don't know Drew Bayer personally (I do know many coaches in the evidence based exercise world). His web-site has some solid information re: brief, intense, infrequent (efficient) training methods.
 
TAKU
2/6/13 2:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Out To Lunch
97 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16229
Taku - 

I am an advocate of what I like to call Evidence Based Exercise. I have read pretty much everything MM has written as well as listened to interviews, lectures and, even spoken to him on the phone. His earlier approach was more like Yates. He would do one or two cycles of heavy sets to failure. Later in his career, Mentzer did not advocate training beyond positive (concentric) failure. He did ultimately move in a direction that for many proves to be just too little volume to be truly effective.

My own experience using MM style of training (both with myself and clients) has proven very effective. Several years ago, I put on 10 lbs of solid muscle in one month using MM style brief, infrequent intense training.

The version I used was a classic push - pull - legs split routines.

Push Day:

Chest Fly supersetted with Incline press - Lateral Raise - Rear delt - Dips - Triceps ext

Pull Day:

Pull-over supersetted with Supinated pull-downs - Row - Shrug - Low back ext - Biceps curl

Leg Day 

Leg ext supersetted with Squat - Leg curl - Calf raise ABs (one set each flexion / ext / rotation)

I trained once every two days (two whole days between workouts). After warm-ups (never more than about 2 sets of the first movement of the day) I would dive right in. I took all sets to positive failure and took as little rest as possible between sets.

At work...I'll chime in  more later.

TAKU


Taku,

How did you progress on exercises like lateral raises, where you can't really add a lot of weight? Did you just keep adding reps each session? How high did you have to take the reps to be able to add weight on an exercise like this? Thanks.
2/7/13 8:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Out To Lunch
97 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16230
Out To Lunch - 
Taku - 

I am an advocate of what I like to call Evidence Based Exercise. I have read pretty much everything MM has written as well as listened to interviews, lectures and, even spoken to him on the phone. His earlier approach was more like Yates. He would do one or two cycles of heavy sets to failure. Later in his career, Mentzer did not advocate training beyond positive (concentric) failure. He did ultimately move in a direction that for many proves to be just too little volume to be truly effective.

My own experience using MM style of training (both with myself and clients) has proven very effective. Several years ago, I put on 10 lbs of solid muscle in one month using MM style brief, infrequent intense training.

The version I used was a classic push - pull - legs split routines.

Push Day:

Chest Fly supersetted with Incline press - Lateral Raise - Rear delt - Dips - Triceps ext

Pull Day:

Pull-over supersetted with Supinated pull-downs - Row - Shrug - Low back ext - Biceps curl

Leg Day 

Leg ext supersetted with Squat - Leg curl - Calf raise ABs (one set each flexion / ext / rotation)

I trained once every two days (two whole days between workouts). After warm-ups (never more than about 2 sets of the first movement of the day) I would dive right in. I took all sets to positive failure and took as little rest as possible between sets.

At work...I'll chime in  more later.

TAKU


Taku,

How did you progress on exercises like lateral raises, where you can't really add a lot of weight? Did you just keep adding reps each session? How high did you have to take the reps to be able to add weight on an exercise like this? Thanks.

Bump
2/7/13 2:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Badmonkey
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/15/07
Posts: 8002
When i do laterals and feel i need a slight bump in weight i first make sure my rep cadence is slowed to a momentum free pace and see if that makes the current weight a bit harder.

At a certain point if i can do 30lbs in strict form and with a controlled speed for a certain number of reps i'm pretty sure i can handle 35lbs with a little more speed for fewer reps and then tidy up my form each time i revisit the exercise.

Another thing i've been playing with is stage reps or zone reps and they are sometimes called.

If i can handle 25lb dumbbell lateral raises for lets say 10 reps in decent form, i start the set with the weakest 1/3 of that movement - the first third of it - and rep out... i might get 10-20 reps before i cant manage another one, each being controlled and deliberate trying my best not to use momentum and start each rep at the point where the shoulder starts to bear the weight about a foot out from my waist and holding for a second right before the middle range of motion is reached...

After i can't manage another rep i drop the weights and shake it out for 10-15 seconds before picking them back up and starting the next stage of reps - the middle 1/3 - where the first 1/3 left off and stopping right before where the final 1/3 range of motion might start... i rep out in the same manner and usually end up with 8-12 reps before hitting failure.

After another 10-15 second rest i pick the weights back up and do the same thing with the final 1/3 range of motion contracting and holding at the end of each rep for a second and get a good squeeze.. i'm lucky to manage 6-8 reps at this point.

The pump and intensity of a set performed like this is unlike anything i've felt before, and you're actually hitting failure 3 times - once for each different part of the range of motion, whereas with a full rep set you might fail at the beginning or in the middle of your rep with some gas eft in the tank so to speak.

I've also found this is a great way to increase weight for different ranges of motion. Maybe pick a weight that will lead to 10-12 reps in each zone and find out you can use 20lbs for the first 1/3, 25lbs for the second 1/3 and 30lbs for the finals 1/3...

There are many ways to play with this method - do 1/2 range of motion instead of 1/3, or really hitting each range hard and resting a couple minutes before attempting the other ranges...

2/7/13 2:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Out To Lunch
97 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16237
Badmonkey - When i do laterals and feel i need a slight bump in weight i first make sure my rep cadence is slowed to a momentum free pace and see if that makes the current weight a bit harder.

At a certain point if i can do 30lbs in strict form and with a controlled speed for a certain number of reps i'm pretty sure i can handle 35lbs with a little more speed for fewer reps and then tidy up my form each time i revisit the exercise.

Another thing i've been playing with is stage reps or zone reps and they are sometimes called.

If i can handle 25lb dumbbell lateral raises for lets say 10 reps in decent form, i start the set with the weakest 1/3 of that movement - the first third of it - and rep out... i might get 10-20 reps before i cant manage another one, each being controlled and deliberate trying my best not to use momentum and start each rep at the point where the shoulder starts to bear the weight about a foot out from my waist and holding for a second right before the middle range of motion is reached...

After i can't manage another rep i drop the weights and shake it out for 10-15 seconds before picking them back up and starting the next stage of reps - the middle 1/3 - where the first 1/3 left off and stopping right before where the final 1/3 range of motion might start... i rep out in the same manner and usually end up with 8-12 reps before hitting failure.

After another 10-15 second rest i pick the weights back up and do the same thing with the final 1/3 range of motion contracting and holding at the end of each rep for a second and get a good squeeze.. i'm lucky to manage 6-8 reps at this point.

The pump and intensity of a set performed like this is unlike anything i've felt before, and you're actually hitting failure 3 times - once for each different part of the range of motion, whereas with a full rep set you might fail at the beginning or in the middle of your rep with some gas eft in the tank so to speak.

I've also found this is a great way to increase weight for different ranges of motion. Maybe pick a weight that will lead to 10-12 reps in each zone and find out you can use 20lbs for the first 1/3, 25lbs for the second 1/3 and 30lbs for the finals 1/3...

There are many ways to play with this method - do 1/2 range of motion instead of 1/3, or really hitting each range hard and resting a couple minutes before attempting the other ranges...


Thanks!! This is good info!!
2/7/13 11:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
HULC
67 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4554
I read some of Mentzers stuff a couple of years back and really liked it. One thing that did stick in my mind was that MM never said that a single set would be the best result for absolutely everybody, but that it was the most logical place to start. And if a lifter felt they needed more volume to grow then they could up the sets from there. As opposed to starting at 3 or 4 sets per lift and not knowing whether going up, down, or staying where they were would be best for them.
2/8/13 5:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BLPorritt
73 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/3/09
Posts: 3339
In Phone Post
2/8/13 8:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Badmonkey
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/15/07
Posts: 8007
HULC - I read some of Mentzers stuff a couple of years back and really liked it. One thing that did stick in my mind was that MM never said that a single set would be the best result for absolutely everybody, but that it was the most logical place to start. And if a lifter felt they needed more volume to grow then they could up the sets from there. As opposed to starting at 3 or 4 sets per lift and not knowing whether going up, down, or staying where they were would be best for them.

True.

I asked him about that during a phone consultation almost 20 years ago and he said he had trained over 2000 clients and nobody ever needed more than one set...

I frequent to message board of Ellington Darden; a big name in the HIT world since the 70s... when asked about his personal workout a while ago i remember him showing the performance of two sets of some movements - which shocked many hardcore HITers on the board..

He said that with a trainer or coach present he saw no need to perform more than one set, as the highest intensity, form and motivation were often encouraged in such an environment... but when training alone he saw fit to sometimes hit a second set to make sure he achieved the desired intensity and result(i'm paraphrasing of course).


2/12/13 9:11 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JamesDean57
31 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/30/13
Posts: 3
Chocolate Shatner - Even with 30-40 minutes, you can still work in a good normal workout. Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 is designed for 30-45 minutes, and you can pare it down to under 30 if you eliminate the assistance exercises (although I don't recommend this except for short periods).

Seriously, break it down to 3 workouts a week. Do the Boring But Big Program, and your chest workout becomes:

Bench (work up to 5/3 or 1)
Bench 3x10
Pushups 2 sets to failure.

You just drilled your chest, triceps, shoulders, and even got some core work in, using a total of 10 sets or so. If you keep your rest time down in the 1 - 1.5 minute range, you can do the whole fucking thing in 20 minutes.

Chocolate Shatner,
I do Wendlers 531. On bench and o/h press days I do pull ups and rows for assistance. Squat and dead lift I don't do any assistance.

Do you think doing it like that will cause any imbalance?
I do have reason for doing it this way.
2/12/13 4:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Chocolate Shatner
265 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 32442
Pullups and rows for assistance is great, but also look at some reverse band flyes or other things. They're quick to do and you can do them almost anywhere.

As for no assistance for squats and deads, I am not sure why you would want to do that. The lower body is just as, if not more complex than the upper body, and both of those lifts require work from all areas. To not cover the assistance lifts for those exercises is confusing to me.
2/12/13 7:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JamesDean57
31 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/30/13
Posts: 5
My reason is I have congestive heart failure, only 25% of my heart still works and it wears me out quick if the weight gets to heavy.

It has taken me a long time to get where I am.
Iv'e been doing 531 boring but big, but as I said it is getting to me.

So I was thinking about dropping all the assistance that I safely can.
2/12/13 11:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Chocolate Shatner
265 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 32443
If it is heavy weight that takes you out, I'd say reverse pyramid your assistance lifts. After your main lift, do an assistance lift that takes 5 reps to fail, then next set 7, next set 9, etc.

If BBB is getting to you, then go to another system. Try HIT, try Westside, there are lots of options.
2/13/13 8:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JamesDean57
31 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/30/13
Posts: 7
Ok I don't know why I didn't think of it my self, I guess body weight assistance would work.

I feel kind of stupid now that I see how simple it was :P

Thanks for your help.

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.