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S&C UnderGround >> To Run Or Not To Run/Roadwork?


12/9/12 6:10 PM
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ruggerbouy
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big_slacker - 
ruggerbouy - run on the sand, less impact great work-out, also running uphill or stairs shortens the amount of time your punishing your knees

Trail running as well, every serious distance runner I know does most of their training on dirt/sand even if the race is on pavement.

one thing i left out, if you ARE a distance runner and are looking to do 10k's half or full marathons you do need to run on concrete now and again, it toughens your feet and legs up and gets em used to the harder impact, dont overdo it, but it'd be like going into a fight for the first time and never punch a heavy back your knuckles and wrists would probably last 10 punches
12/11/12 2:39 AM
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TheKidAintMine
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ttt
12/11/12 3:04 AM
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Leigh
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fat referee -

fwiw Frankie Edgar says he doesn't do any roadwork.

Circuits are probably better for traneing purposes.

You can guarantee he's built a monstrous aerobic base somewhere along the line. Quite possibly from hours of wrestling everyday Phone Post
12/11/12 11:06 AM
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cdueck
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Don't wrestlers generally do a ton of running as part of there training.

12/11/12 7:57 PM
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ruggerbouy
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fat referee - 
cdueck - 

Don't wrestlers generally do a ton of running as part of there training.

 

In HS I did roadwork primarily to cut weight. We also did sprints, but I personally see better endurance gains from circuits compared to roadwork, simply because I am not doing any hefty push/pull movements when I run. I'm not a personal trainer/physical therapist but based on experience, I 100% believe running endurance and wrestling/boxing/jiujitsu endurance are 2 different things.

 


I would agree with you, running long distance requires you to build up a better way for your body to combat lactic acid, and slow wear and tear of muscles.

it also depends on the type of road work, for intense are we talking about running or jogging, jogging is for weekend warrior marathoners who are content finishing a race. where as running sucks, it hurts, its not meant to be enjoyful unless ur a sadist lol.

jogging is great for building up a respectable amount of muscular endurance in the average person, and lose weight.

running, is meant to blow up your lungs and force your body into a shut down mode because it shouldnt be able to keep up with your set pace for more then 15-20 minutes, but as you uild a strong base as a runner, and you can accomplish that I'd say as your fight gets closer you should cut back on the roadwork to keep your joints healthy and concentrate on equally intense sport specific cardio circuit type training to compliment the movements and skills required in the activity.

lastly some people I work and train with use joggin/less intense runs, on an off training day just to promote circulations, and help loosen up tense muscles from a hard training day, to better allow them to stretch, I personally just prefer skipping
12/11/12 10:46 PM
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cdueck
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Most people don't understand the difference between going for a run and going for a jog. I voted you up for a great explaination.^^^^

12/12/12 7:17 AM
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GriffinQ
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Swim. Phone Post
12/12/12 8:10 AM
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glass neck
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agreed on the difference between jogging/running

i think thats why i see so many people i know who "run" never improve their times and just settle into 10+ minute miles...or worse

and also why damn near every person you see winning these races is an ex-college track and field/cc runner

youre never going to be fast unless you train your body to run fast

i think most peoples approach is to try and run a "half" or a "full" and not lend any thought to learning how to run first and then building up distance

i find the treadmill great for speed and tempo runs


12/12/12 3:03 PM
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ruggerbouy
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I realised, I have never actually shared my personal training experience. I'm in the canadian Military and one even I do each year is a military "iron man" our version consists of:

32 kilometer rucksack run, in which rucksack weighs 40 pounds;
Then a 4 kiometer canoe portage, with your rucksack;
then an 8 kilometer canoe;
and finish with another 6 kilometer rucksack run;
for a total of 50 kilometers

when I train for that the longest distance I cover is a bare ass 10 kilometer run to include about 50% of that 10 kilometer distance being made up of hills on a 45 degree or steeper incline, next is a 8 kilometer run with my rucksack, and the rest is just running laps up hills over an over for a set period of time, and then obviously work with the Canoe;

what I then do is break down my average times for each of these different work-out and break them down frther to what I could hopefully achieve during my race so

if I run 10 kilometer with my rucksack in 1 hour, logic should dictate I can do 30 kilometers in three hours WRONG!
I give my absolute all every time during training which I've made a sort of graph to work off of, from that I figure out my percentages of what my max is so if at my best time do 10 kilometers with a 40 pound rucksack in 1 hour, and my worst time was 2 hours I now have 2 points and all the points inbetween to find out what percentage I should be able to run at.

So the human body should only be able to run at 80% of its max for about 10-15 minutes this is where we go back to what I said before in the running vs. jogging thing.

but on event day we need to reduce the % and increase the distance and time, so I like to try and run this race between 65-75% (depending on what I doing if its a kilometer of flatland the its 75%, if its very hilly then is 65%)

so again 1 hour is 100% 2 hours in my mind would become 50% (may be a placebo but it always caused me to improve lol)

if I running at 65-75 percent this would mean I should be able to complete the 32 kilometer first leg in about 3 hours 45 minutes at 75% the entire way, making it a simple matter of breaking down the kilometers in specific times i.e. 32 kilometers in 3 hours 45 minutes would be covers each kilometer at 7.03125 minutes.

from here I just keep track of each kilometer I run and speed up or slow down as required and to this day I havent been more then 10 minutes plus or minus my goal time.

Now away from the algebra crap and back to my motivational stuff ;)

running is for men, jogging is for fat people who want to lose weight (all the power to ya if that you), injured people or people on there recovery day, or the worst posers with bright flamboyant running accesories I want to drop kick in the back of the fucking head when I "RUN" past them.

Running is gritty its hard, when you do it you should do it as if you being chased by a fucking PACK of pregnant woman screaming "YOUR THE FATHER" you fucking stud you. You shouldnt be "glistening" with sweat, you should be fucking pouring, and bleeding from the rub of your shoes against your ankles, again running sucks but if you a sadist and mans man, and love putting your body through the grinder and asking for more, the get you ass moving and FUCKING RUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!

cheers
12/12/12 3:45 PM
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Ringworm74
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Ruggerbouy your too cool man, awesome post! Thats the mentality i need to have being chased by pregnant women..... Phone Post
12/12/12 4:20 PM
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ruggerbouy
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Edited: 12/12/12 4:21 PM
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<blockquote>Ringworm74 - 

Ruggerbouy your too cool man, awesome post! Thats the mentality i need to have being chased by pregnant women..... <img src="/images/phone/droid.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


your too kind man, I just hate seeing people being misinformed about training, it just to often leads to wasted time or injuries, or pregnant women chasing you because no matter who tells you it pulling out isn't a surefire method ;)
12/13/12 1:13 PM
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ruggerbouy
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Edited: 12/13/12 1:17 PM
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one work-out I have always sworn by as be good for anyone, and for anything requiring, cardio/anorobic conditioning/and explosivness is called "fartlekking" I know it sounds funky I Scandanavian I think lol

So I like to do this on a indoor 200m track, I just find it better for the explosive aspect then a 400m but both work, and you can even do this on a normal road beach anywhere you can measure and equal area of 50x50 or 100x100 etc...

so on a track you start at the end of a straightaway and jog the curve the second you hit the first straight away it time to flick that switch and spring at 100% not 80%, but 100% everything you have got for that 50 metres, once you hit that curve again jog at a pace you find comfortable to recover but quickly because the next starightaway is comming and you just repeat that sequence jog the curves and sprint the lengths, this routine is highly flexable as you can work in calesthetics such as push-ups, sit-ups burpees, chin-up, etc... at the top of each curve, do this for 10 laps you WILL be tired if you sprint 100% and keep a high pace job on the curves, personally I find it helps most with that explosive burst you want to have access to even when you tired you know how to manage your body and explode for a short period of time, and you learn what you body is capable of very fast, if you want to improve your overall cardio then slow down even more on the curves and do 20 laps instead of 10.
12/15/12 1:31 PM
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Ninja mon
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Running is the greatest! Most of the great fighters swore by it! I love going on runs, especially long runs! My cardio is top notch because of all the running I do. I can see the results in our dojo during training/sparring/circuit training/crossfit intervals. I credit this mainly to all of the running I do!
12/15/12 10:52 PM
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big_slacker
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About pushing yourself, yeah if you just run at the same pace you're always gonna go at the same speed. But if you go balls out every run you probably aren't gonna get any faster in longer runs either because above your lactate threshold just isn't sustainable for that long.

Tempo runs are all about pushing yourself in a controlled way. Get right on the edge of lactate threshold and hold it there for a pre-determined time, then take a short recovery time and repeat a few times. Just sucks and requires some mental fortitude to do. That's how you get faster.

Agree about the running on concrete to condition yourself. That also sucks but has to be done. Trail runs are peaceful and fun for me, pounding pavement just blows.
12/16/12 3:46 AM
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Ninja mon
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Yeah I try to avoid concrete as much as possible. I ran a ton on concrete just over a year ago and it really banged up my knees. I mainly run on grass and dirt. I think that the mental fortitude running builds is amazing.
12/17/12 12:27 AM
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BshMstr
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blacksamurai -  My trainer at ATT says running/road work sucks for fight cardio, leads to knee injuries (he says unless you have a weight cutting issue/problem then its cool), and prescribes sprints, stadium steps, hills, prowler, and sled work instead...

Other guys i train with (not instructors) give a contrary pov They say "fighters/boxers have been running/doing road work for generations it works for them" (i know Frazier ran in steel toes boots, and MMA has the Diaz bros) his rebuff would be " fighters have been eating raw eggs, trying to knock each other out in sparring fucking up their ability to take a punch, and drinking their own piss for generations too how has that worked out for them".

His final point would be "SOME guys can run as much as they want, but when they train step on the mats they will always gas hard some just innately gas hard, and some innately have better gas tanks". This makes any sense?

I've defied him, and started running and for the month of NOV i have 25 miles in and have lost 13 lbs with dieting, but now my physician at the VA says i have cretosis (creaky knee), and bursitis! My knee locks up at the end of runs (i cannot extend), but I feel really really good on my feet wrestling, and doing standup striking, but when i roll can still feel like shit from time to time... Phone Post

i'd suggest reading some of Joel Jamieson's stuff....he explains the how and why of endurance training better than anyone i've ever read.


sometimes you need extended cardio, sometimes you need intervals, but pretty uch everyone needs both. it's important to figure out when you need them, and why.
12/17/12 6:06 AM
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HULC
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ruggerbouy - one work-out I have always sworn by as be good for anyone, and for anything requiring, cardio/anorobic conditioning/and explosivness is called "fartlekking" I know it sounds funky I Scandanavian I think lol

So I like to do this on a indoor 200m track, I just find it better for the explosive aspect then a 400m but both work, and you can even do this on a normal road beach anywhere you can measure and equal area of 50x50 or 100x100 etc...

so on a track you start at the end of a straightaway and jog the curve the second you hit the first straight away it time to flick that switch and spring at 100% not 80%, but 100% everything you have got for that 50 metres, once you hit that curve again jog at a pace you find comfortable to recover but quickly because the next starightaway is comming and you just repeat that sequence jog the curves and sprint the lengths, this routine is highly flexable as you can work in calesthetics such as push-ups, sit-ups burpees, chin-up, etc... at the top of each curve, do this for 10 laps you WILL be tired if you sprint 100% and keep a high pace job on the curves, personally I find it helps most with that explosive burst you want to have access to even when you tired you know how to manage your body and explode for a short period of time, and you learn what you body is capable of very fast, if you want to improve your overall cardio then slow down even more on the curves and do 20 laps instead of 10.

That's not exactly Fartlek, more interval training, or HIIT. Fartlek is much less structured, and basically consists of mixing up high speed sections with slow running as and when you feel like it over the course of a run.
12/17/12 2:15 PM
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The Gunslinger
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I wouldn't say Joel Jamieson is wrong, but there are a lot of other just as effective ways.
12/18/12 12:23 AM
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Koga
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Back to the OP, not sure how "sprints, stadium steps, hills, prowler, and sled work" is going to be easier on your knees than running with good form.

12/19/12 3:12 AM
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NeoSpartan
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The problem here is

1) Most people run to get in shape but don't realize they need to get in shape to run. Unfortunately it's not a natural thing once you past probably 10 years old. We stop running on the regular and rarely take the time to develop good form. In addition shoes, chairs, and the 21st century in general are trying to take that last bit of 'animal' from you. Take the time to really learn good form, strengthen your gastrocs, improve your ROM, improve your ability to activate muscle groups (glutes, hammies, etc).

2) Less is more. I'm not sure if you're competing but if you're in practice 5 days a week 2-3hours a day then you're getting plenty of _________ work already. I don't care what it is, you're getting it. Fighting is a full spectrum sport. We get in this habit of seeing "programs" and thinking we need to prescribe ALL of that shit. You don't need to lift four days a week AND train 6 days a week AND run 4 days a week, and etc etc. One day a week running distance might do it. You might only need to lift twice a week. And you don't have to do ALL these things at the same time!

Seriously the best advice I can give you is to focus on ONE thing at a fucking time. If fighting is the MOST important thing to you then drop EVERYTHING else till you can get in the gym as often as possible on a regular basis. If you can get in there twice a day then do it. THEN pick weaknesses and begin to work on them. Need an aerobic base? Get one! 8 weeks and you should be able to run quite a bit. Then you can maintain that and boom work on your strength. Start incrementally and you can be adding 5-15lbs a week to your lifts till you start hitting your potential. etc etc... I'm not explaining this very well but basically stop wasting your recovery ability trying to work on EVERYTHING because you'll get no where. It's not about how much work you can do it's about how much work you can recovery from!
12/19/12 8:24 AM
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ruggerbouy
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NeoSpartan - The problem here is

1) Most people run to get in shape but don't realize they need to get in shape to run. Unfortunately it's not a natural thing once you past probably 10 years old. We stop running on the regular and rarely take the time to develop good form. In addition shoes, chairs, and the 21st century in general are trying to take that last bit of 'animal' from you. Take the time to really learn good form, strengthen your gastrocs, improve your ROM, improve your ability to activate muscle groups (glutes, hammies, etc).

2) Less is more. I'm not sure if you're competing but if you're in practice 5 days a week 2-3hours a day then you're getting plenty of _________ work already. I don't care what it is, you're getting it. Fighting is a full spectrum sport. We get in this habit of seeing "programs" and thinking we need to prescribe ALL of that shit. You don't need to lift four days a week AND train 6 days a week AND run 4 days a week, and etc etc. One day a week running distance might do it. You might only need to lift twice a week. And you don't have to do ALL these things at the same time!

Seriously the best advice I can give you is to focus on ONE thing at a fucking time. If fighting is the MOST important thing to you then drop EVERYTHING else till you can get in the gym as often as possible on a regular basis. If you can get in there twice a day then do it. THEN pick weaknesses and begin to work on them. Need an aerobic base? Get one! 8 weeks and you should be able to run quite a bit. Then you can maintain that and boom work on your strength. Start incrementally and you can be adding 5-15lbs a week to your lifts till you start hitting your potential. etc etc... I'm not explaining this very well but basically stop wasting your recovery ability trying to work on EVERYTHING because you'll get no where. It's not about how much work you can do it's about how much work you can recovery from!

I'd say you explained yourself well, a liottle vague yes, but the general point was strong and very true, I'll add by saying.

1) if you have some doe buy a pair of toe shoes, the ones that are literally a rubber foot, they may look a little goofy but they are amazing for stopping you from running on your heels they almost force you to run to your toe.

2) when I said running is different then jogging before, I didnt mean you need to be a high caliber sprinter, anybody that can jog can run the difference is you shouldnt be able to run for more then 30 minutes, as the point os running is to blow your lung in that time, and as your lungs get stronger the distance you can cover will increase in that time. jogging in my opinion is somthing you should be able to do almost as long or longer depending on what muscle groups are stronger, for a VERY long period of time.

3) if you are doing this for fighting then the work your doing at practice should be enough for the time being to improve your cardio while also improvin your skills, until you know you have a fight approaching you dont have to so much worry about the roadwork like its gonna make or break your ability to learn more. 

1/17/13 1:02 AM
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Koga
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As a way to build aerobic fitness, a long slow jog keeping your heart rate in a target mid-range zone is ideal. Great examples of classic roadwork in used by older champions are Randy Couture and George Foreman. If you train a combat sport, you should already be getting sufficent anaerobic workouts with your regular training.

If you are a wrestler, boxer, judoka, fighter, etc and you want to run as supplemental training with a maximum chance of injury, ruggerbouy's suggestion of running on uneven terrain carrying things with a heart rate at the upper range is for you.
1/17/13 8:30 AM
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Wiggy
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There have been a lot of good points made on this thread already, but IMO, to get a truly accurate picture, you have to take them all into consideration at the same time - a sort of "big picture" view.  The problem most people have when this discussion comes up is that they're only looking at it in terms of one point of view (usually their own), so that's why they end up thinking other ideas/methods are not needed, erroneous, or whatever.

With that in mind, let's take a sort of "big picture" look at the whole thing:

1 - Keep in mind that the goal of roadwork is to improve your aerobic system, not get better at roadwork.  Roadwork is a low-tech, inexpensive, able-to-do-it-almost-anywhere way of improving the aerobic system.  However, roadwork itself has never been necessary to improve the aerobic system, and it never will be.

2 - That said, running is no different than swimming (as was pointed out) or weight training.  You wouldn't tell someone who doesn't know WTF they're doing to hit the gym without at least taking some basic measure of learning what they're doing first.  Cleans, Squats, DLs, are all great exercises that can do a ton for you - and they can also totally fuck you up if you don't know what you're doing.  Roadwork is no different.  If you don't have proper form, shoes, etc, then you can be macho as you want, but that doesn't mean it still can't fuck you up.  And yes, I'm speaking from personal experience.

3 - You HAVE to take into account everything else a person does.  Too many people like to say "you can't just do roadwork, you have to do intense stuff like circuits".  On the flip side, you have just as many people who say the opposite, "circuits are fucking stupid and a fighter should only be doing roadwork".  In reality, they're both right - but it depends on the person you're talking about.

There's no way to do skills work without it taxing your conditioning.  This means that every time you're hitting the bag, drilling takedowns, grappling, sparring, etc, you're getting a sort of "built in" cardio/conditioning workout.  If you're doing a fair amount of skills work, then this lessens what you need to do and actually should be doing in your dedicated conditioning workouts.  In this case, easy roadwork would very well be all you'd need.

However, if you do little to no skills work, if you're still out to be in the same kinda overall shape/condition (i.e. - have the same overall level of GPP), then you're gonna have to make that up in your workouts, simply b/c those are (indirect) workouts you're not getting by not doing the skills work.

I actually say that the "regular guy" (i.e. - someone who doesn't trane UFC) many times should have/do harder S&C workouts than a fighter should to achieve the same condition, as the fighter is doing a ton of work the "regular guy" isn't.

So before you say a certain type of training is either "all you need" or "stupid", take into account who is doing it in the first place, and what other kinda work is in their schedule in the first place.

Wiggy - http://www.workingclassfitness.com

1/17/13 12:27 PM
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thomase
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ttt Phone Post
1/17/13 1:08 PM
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ruggerbouy
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One thing I'm hearing a lot in the S+C forums is "injury" or chance of one, I'm not denyuing the fact that injuries occur but one thing I find to be the biggest cause of injjury for most is "ego" knowing you limits accepting it, then working inside those limits. Some of my favorite lines are;

"Well.....uh.. I used to be able to deadlift 400 lbs."

or

"Well.....I have an old injury from my you know football days" (keywords being "old injury")

Again like I said before running sucks it shouldnt be fun, enjoyable yes if your a sadist lol, but whenever you do this of weight lift or train in any sense you need to smarten up leave your ego at the door and know your body better. the grinding feeling in your kneee means STOP!! your hear a pop in your lumbar STOP!!

point being take the time to do the prep work that why babies learn to flip over before they kneel, then they learn to crawl before they walk, etc... etc... Excercise is know different find out what you limits are dont be afraid to push a bit, but recognise when your going to hurt yourself and learn to STOP!!


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