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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> More rule changes on the horizon?


12/5/12 6:13 PM
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ASanchez83
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http://betterjudo.com/potential-ijf-rule-changes-for-2013-2/


I hope this isn't the case. None of the possible rule changes in the article are related to fighter safety. When will it end?
12/6/12 6:56 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Our sensei told us about some of them this week. One not mentioned is if at the end of regulation the score is tied and one has scores by throws and the other scores by shidos the one who scored by throws is the winner. I do hope if they adopt no leg grabs of any sorts a shido is given for the infraction vs hansoku make. I always felt this was too severe of a penalty. Another I heard is you get no free shido, yuko is scored with first shido. Some you mentioned were not discussed with us.
12/6/12 12:50 PM
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Weinstein
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Let's just skip the foreplay and only allow 4 throws. Seionage, tai otoshi, uchi mata, o soto gari.
12/7/12 7:04 AM
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judoblackbelt
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I think some of these rule changes came from the recent Olympics where you had many matches tied at regulation and or won in golden score by shidos. Reducing the osaekomi times would be good also. The leg grab rule is always debateable. Many who don't like it are not current practioners/coaches/contributors to the growth of judo and are not relevant to its future, just complainers sort of.
12/11/12 4:39 PM
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Spartan79
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Bollocks, I know many of Judoka , and trainers that hate the leg grab rule!
Lets keep watering down what was once a great combat art! How can they not allow leg grabs? So you have to show them in gradings but can't do them in comps:-/ Phone Post
12/11/12 7:31 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 12/11/12 10:14 PM
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My first concern is, how will the changes impact  Marti and Kayla?  They have both announced they will still make a run at Rio.  I'm not sure if Travis has made a statement about it.

My second concern is how will the changes impact the up and coming players? Too much can change there, and I just don't know.

No leg grabs, I think benefit Marti and Kayla, as neither used them much.  shidos not counting as scores, I think hurts Marti as she was brilliant at outgripping her opponents and forcing the shidos upon them.  The gripping rules I think hurt Marti as well.   Again, because she is a brilliant and underrated gripper.  She was a much better tactician than people give her credit for.  She is also smaller than most of her 57kg opponents, so the two handed grip break is important.

Kayla also is very good at imposing her grip, so the rules on grips could be considered a negative. However, I think Kayla is very strong, and a move to more standard grips should benefit her.

USA Judo sent out a "statement" today which is not much of a statement.  I don't know where Pedro or Nakano stand on the rule changes as it relates to their players.  If Marti is net/net hurt, I'm against the rule.

The USA is a wonderful country and we can train judo the way we like in the establishments that we operate. We can be free of USA Judo, USJF, USJA, IJF or whomever.  If their agenda works with our agenda, then great.  If not, we don't need to pay attention to what they are doing.   None of the organizations make one bit of difference in how many people walk through our doors. We run our dojo for our members, not for the organizations.

The IJF rules only concern me as a fan.  I'm a fan of USA players, and if we win more medals because of the rules, I'm happy, and if we miss out on more medals, I'm angry.

 

 

12/11/12 8:54 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/T121211004031.htm

IJF to put foot down on leg grabs
The Yomiuri Shimbun

The International Judo Federation, which has already outlawed wrestling-like tackles, plans to adopt a new rule that expands prohibiting the grabbing of an opponent's leg in any standing situation.

The IJF plans to test the new rule at the Paris Grand Slam in February, when its new single-referee system will also be put in place.

In addition, the IJF will adopt a sudden-death system to decide tied matches that will replace the referees' decision. There will be no time limit in the extra period, and a caution will result in immediate defeat.

The prohibition on direct tackles was adopted in 2010, but IJF officials said there had been controversy over whether the offender had grabbed a leg as an attacking move or as a counter technique.

The new rule states that the use of a hand or arm on any part of the opponent's body below the belt, whether during a series of maneuvers or in defense, will be considered a foul, resulting in an automatic loss.

Japan, the birthplace of the sport, has long lobbied for a return to the traditional where big throws are the goal as opposed to building up points through smaller moves.

But there is concern that the new rule might be taking things too far, as it will in theory eliminate such spectacular throws as the fireman's carry and the "sukuinage," a common counter technique in which the opponent's leg is scooped from behind.

"Dynamic countermoves will disappear," said one Japanese official. "It's important to find flaws [in the rule] during the test period."



Fuck it, that's it. I'm done with the IJF and their bullshit. Might as well just restrict the entire fucking sport to two people standing there with their arms taped to each other in a collar and sleeve grip, and only allow seio nage, uchi mata, harai goshi, o soto and o uchi gari.
12/11/12 10:35 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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The IJF has given some insight into the process of the rule changes and the reasoning.

http://www.intjudo.eu/News/cikk2389

Like them or don't like them, I've got to respect the fact that they are at least attempting to explain their positions and the processes.

 I would like the move towards not counting penalties as scores in theory. In reality, I think you will find that this will be easily gamed. 

If a person is up by a yuko after 2 minutes, they can get 3 penalties for stalling and still win the match.  I would be shocked to see many attacks by the opponent who is leading in the last minute of the match unless they have 3 shidos.  It might force the person losing to "chase" their opponent, making it easier for the person leading to wait and counter.  Maybe it does lead to more ippons, but I'm not sure that means it leads to better judo. 

On the other hand, I always thought it was counterintuitive that the person who might have made the only good throw in the match could lose it based on the ability of a referee to penalize them. It put much more power in the refs hands.

 

 

12/12/12 12:23 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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The thing is OC, in 2007 the IJF put out a similarly complex and well worded explanation of their reasonings back then too.

But, so many of their reasons depend on accepting the IJF's preconceived results of the changes. For example, they keep stating things such as "following the spirit of judo," or that such rule changes will lead to more "dynamic, dramatic throws."

It' a buncha bullshit, IMO. Perhaps that isn't as loquacious as the IJF press-release, but it's what I think. And if you want better language, go read Gerald Lafon's blog about it.

For example, the "spirit of judo" was to train to become a better person. This is accomplished through a spirit of combat and testing yourself against the best you can find. That isn't done by hiding behind rule changes every fucking time someone comes out with a technique or method that you can't deal with or you don't like.

This is a fucking combat art, not Japanese Pajama Dancing.

The preconceived idea that these rule changes will lead to classical dynamic throws is also a buncha crap. Each time the IJF makes these changes, they keep claiming the same thing. Yet, each time, the number of "big throws" stays approximately the same.

The fact is, as better and better athletes come into judo, and as gamesmanship spreads, the number of "big throws" is going to stagnate.

IMO, the rule changes have actually had a reverse effect, because the rules have created a more limited "game." With that, players find it easier and easier to prepare, since they have less to prepare for.

Now, as an IJF player, you don't have to prepare for:

- about a dozen different throws and their variations
- a multitude of grip options
- a plethora of ground techniques

that is in addition to the long standing rules against strikes (which I can at least understand).

With all those things (I could easily come up with a hundred different possibilities) taken out of the game, my job just became a hell of a lot easier to prevent the techniques that are left.
12/12/12 12:53 AM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 12/12/12 12:53 AM
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Hi CS,

I don't have any control over what the IJF does, nor will I be able to influence them in any way.   They have their agenda in life, and I have mine. The only thing that I can do is align myself with people who view judo in a similar light as I do.

The IJF cannot come into our dojo and tell us not to teach kata guruma, te guruma, morote gari, or any other technique. They cannot tell me to keep guys with big patches and colored gis off my mat.  They can't tell me to only let our students continue in newaza if they are making progress. They can't tell me to not teach students different grips to use in grappling tournaments, or to give wrestlers some new ideas and throws to work with.  If the state organizations, national organizations host tournaments where I don't like the rules, I can simply ignore them and not send our students.

I don't care what IJF players have to prepare for. I have to worry about creating value and satisfying the needs of our membership.  If we don't do that, we close down.

Truth of the matter is, we do belong to all 3 organizations. There are some things we do to support them, and some things we just ignore them on.

All that I have control over with the IJF is if I watch or support their events. The truth there is, that I will continue to watch and support USA Judo athletes against the rest of the world. If there were no USA Judo athletes, I probably would ignore the events.  I'll admit they got me over a barrel there.

My heart still goes 200 beats per minute when I watch Marti, Kayla, Travis fight. When they lose unfairly, it bothers me for days. If they make a mistake, I replay it in my head for weeks. It is a personal weakness. 

I'll admit I am very much worried about how the rules will affect Marti Malloy. I just have to have confidence in Shintaro Nakano and the rest of the SJSU staff that they will overcome any difficulties the new rules present for her.  I'll admit further, that if she doesn't make it in 2016 and the rules were a big part of the reason, I'll be enraged.  If somehow, I'm completely wrong about the impact on her and it is a net advantage, I'll be thankful.

If the question is "will the rule changes make the sport more interesting to me?"  The answer is no.  I think it is much more interesting when players have to deal with more variables.

 

12/12/12 1:48 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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OC,

I for one am glad you think that way, but my situation is different. Living in Japan, there is only one judo organization to belong to if I want to give recognized rank. I plan on starting a club next year, and I have to admit I've been forced into the corner of having to say I'm not going to give out recognized rank. I'm not going to join the AJJF (All Japan Judo Federation), because I refuse to be constrained by the rule sets that are being forced down our throats.

There are of course other things that bother me, but that is the gist of my issue.
12/12/12 3:46 AM
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Spartan79
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Chocolate Shatner - http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/T121211004031.htm

IJF to put foot down on leg grabs
The Yomiuri Shimbun

The International Judo Federation, which has already outlawed wrestling-like tackles, plans to adopt a new rule that expands prohibiting the grabbing of an opponent's leg in any standing situation.

The IJF plans to test the new rule at the Paris Grand Slam in February, when its new single-referee system will also be put in place.

In addition, the IJF will adopt a sudden-death system to decide tied matches that will replace the referees' decision. There will be no time limit in the extra period, and a caution will result in immediate defeat.

The prohibition on direct tackles was adopted in 2010, but IJF officials said there had been controversy over whether the offender had grabbed a leg as an attacking move or as a counter technique.

The new rule states that the use of a hand or arm on any part of the opponent's body below the belt, whether during a series of maneuvers or in defense, will be considered a foul, resulting in an automatic loss.

Japan, the birthplace of the sport, has long lobbied for a return to the traditional where big throws are the goal as opposed to building up points through smaller moves.

But there is concern that the new rule might be taking things too far, as it will in theory eliminate such spectacular throws as the fireman's carry and the "sukuinage," a common counter technique in which the opponent's leg is scooped from behind.

"Dynamic countermoves will disappear," said one Japanese official. "It's important to find flaws [in the rule] during the test period."



Fuck it, that's it. I'm done with the IJF and their bullshit. Might as well just restrict the entire fucking sport to two people standing there with their arms taped to each other in a collar and sleeve grip, and only allow seio nage, uchi mata, harai goshi, o soto and o uchi gari.
Well said!
It's so restricted now its a different animal to what it once was!
You can do more Judo in BJJ now than you can in Judo lol Phone Post
12/13/12 9:41 AM
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Tom Lawlor
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I don't think Travis has made a statement about his judo future for 2016, but I 100% expect him to be competing.

It sounds weird to have another grown man as an idol, but that guy is one of mine. Phone Post
12/13/12 6:30 PM
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dynamo
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OCJudoTrngCtr - 

Hi CS,

I don't have any control over what the IJF does, nor will I be able to influence them in any way.   They have their agenda in life, and I have mine. The only thing that I can do is align myself with people who view judo in a similar light as I do.

The IJF cannot come into our dojo and tell us not to teach kata guruma, te guruma, morote gari, or any other technique. They cannot tell me to keep guys with big patches and colored gis off my mat.  They can't tell me to only let our students continue in newaza if they are making progress. They can't tell me to not teach students different grips to use in grappling tournaments, or to give wrestlers some new ideas and throws to work with.  If the state organizations, national organizations host tournaments where I don't like the rules, I can simply ignore them and not send our students.

I don't care what IJF players have to prepare for. I have to worry about creating value and satisfying the needs of our membership.  If we don't do that, we close down.

Truth of the matter is, we do belong to all 3 organizations. There are some things we do to support them, and some things we just ignore them on.

All that I have control over with the IJF is if I watch or support their events. The truth there is, that I will continue to watch and support USA Judo athletes against the rest of the world. If there were no USA Judo athletes, I probably would ignore the events.  I'll admit they got me over a barrel there.

My heart still goes 200 beats per minute when I watch Marti, Kayla, Travis fight. When they lose unfairly, it bothers me for days. If they make a mistake, I replay it in my head for weeks. It is a personal weakness. 

I'll admit I am very much worried about how the rules will affect Marti Malloy. I just have to have confidence in Shintaro Nakano and the rest of the SJSU staff that they will overcome any difficulties the new rules present for her.  I'll admit further, that if she doesn't make it in 2016 and the rules were a big part of the reason, I'll be enraged.  If somehow, I'm completely wrong about the impact on her and it is a net advantage, I'll be thankful.

If the question is "will the rule changes make the sport more interesting to me?"  The answer is no.  I think it is much more interesting when players have to deal with more variables.

 


I completely agree. In my club we make a distinction between judo and IJF/Olympic judo.
12/14/12 12:14 AM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 12/14/12 12:14 AM
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Dynamo,

Thanks. Coming from you, it makes me feel more confident in my position.

CS,

If the IJF rule changes cause you to start your own club, well, then its a good thing.  Not only in the USA, but worldwide we need more judo clubs.  If you find a bunch of people who believe you are going in the right direction, you can be very successful.  I hope that you are inspired enough to do it.

I wouldn't worry too much about the rank thing.  Most people won't practice outside the dojo, and if they did as long as you are honest with them it should be ok.  The National Organizations in the USA don't want you to know about it, but there are tons of people teaching judo who have no involvement with them at all. It would not surprise me if there are more clubs not associated than clubs that are.

Some personal examples.

My father is 74 years of age, with Kodokan 6th degree. He drives more than 60 miles each way 2x a week to work out with some friends in the back of one of their shops.  They are all black belts, so nobody gives a damn about promotions or not.  If he can't make it down there, sometimes he pops into a BJJ/MMA place in his town. The owner learned judo from him and he lets him come in, show a few things and has a couple bodies for him to do some uchikomi and matwork with.

One guy at my club taught judo at YMCA's and Boys Clubs for more than 20 years without ever registering with one of the 3.  A 67 year old gentleman who is well known in the Vietnamese communty here trains with us once in a while and has been teaching for a long time in the area.  Just saw him at our holiday party on Saturday.  There is a club 5 miles down the road from me that doesn't advertise and the guy teaches 1 or 2 classes a week.  I know of a few community centers as well with judo programs not affiliated with the Big 3.

If the 3 organizations were smart, they'd try to bring them into the fold by creating some value for them. As it is, they mostly believe they are charging them for the opportunity to aggravate them.  Sometimes, I see their point. 

But I can confidently say in one of the most populated areas in the United States that the non-registered clubs, or clubs teaching judo in their curriculum,  well exceed the number of registered clubs. Though I'm not sure about the number of participants they have.

12/14/12 3:19 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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That's what I'm hoping too, OC.

While the Japanese culture is a lot different, I'm hoping to make some connections with the other arts communities. There's a BJJ group among the Brazilians, and some sub-wrestling guys who are about an hour away from me that I'm going to train with myself to increase my abilities. I hope that through them and some others I can offer my students the chance to test their skills outside the club, but either way we'll see.

As it is, the IJF and the AJJF (since they basically said that their rules will from now on mirror the IJF no matter what) can kiss my lily white butt.
12/15/12 9:58 AM
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Gendai Budo
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OCJudoTrngCtr -

Hi CS,

I don't have any control over what the IJF does, nor will I be able to influence them in any way.   They have their agenda in life, and I have mine. The only thing that I can do is align myself with people who view judo in a similar light as I do.

The IJF cannot come into our dojo and tell us not to teach kata guruma, te guruma, morote gari, or any other technique. They cannot tell me to keep guys with big patches and colored gis off my mat.  They can't tell me to only let our students continue in newaza if they are making progress. They can't tell me to not teach students different grips to use in grappling tournaments, or to give wrestlers some new ideas and throws to work with.  If the state organizations, national organizations host tournaments where I don't like the rules, I can simply ignore them and not send our students.

I don't care what IJF players have to prepare for. I have to worry about creating value and satisfying the needs of our membership.  If we don't do that, we close down.

Truth of the matter is, we do belong to all 3 organizations. There are some things we do to support them, and some things we just ignore them on.

All that I have control over with the IJF is if I watch or support their events. The truth there is, that I will continue to watch and support USA Judo athletes against the rest of the world. If there were no USA Judo athletes, I probably would ignore the events.  I'll admit they got me over a barrel there.

My heart still goes 200 beats per minute when I watch Marti, Kayla, Travis fight. When they lose unfairly, it bothers me for days. If they make a mistake, I replay it in my head for weeks. It is a personal weakness. 

I'll admit I am very much worried about how the rules will affect Marti Malloy. I just have to have confidence in Shintaro Nakano and the rest of the SJSU staff that they will overcome any difficulties the new rules present for her.  I'll admit further, that if she doesn't make it in 2016 and the rules were a big part of the reason, I'll be enraged.  If somehow, I'm completely wrong about the impact on her and it is a net advantage, I'll be thankful.

If the question is "will the rule changes make the sport more interesting to me?"  The answer is no.  I think it is much more interesting when players have to deal with more variables.

 

Interesting thoughts. Have you asked Shintaro his opinion? Phone Post
12/15/12 4:25 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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No.  Just my thoughts as a big fan of hers.  Interesting? I'm not sure about that.

Even if I wanted to ask Shintaro his opinion, I don't think it would be appropriate.  There is no reason for him to discuss his student with me. 

But as I stated earlier, I have a lot of confidence in him and the entire SJSU staff.  They did an incredible job preparing her for those moments in London.  I think they can help her get to Rio no matter what the rule structure. 

12/21/12 4:12 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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I teach Judo. I don't care if I am teaching it to people without a gi, people with a gi, people who want to compete or what...

My only objection is when some tool comes to me and says, "teach me some tricks for when i go to MMA or what would you do when somebody does this...?"

it takes years and years and years to get good at Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, whatever... you are not going to learn it in a day, a week, a practice, or whatever...

if you let the IJF limit the way you teach Judo then you are limiting what Judo is. forget that. if the wrestling community can have 3 variations of wrestling with different rules and make adaptations for each in the same tournament and same practice sessions with the same teams and partners then we can do the same in Judo.

lets say I dont teach a kid te-guruma now because the IJF says he cannot use it... but lets say that kid gets into wrestling where he can use it.. and lets say he may have a knack for it, but doesnt know it because of my stupidity in caring about the IJF...

well, I didn't do my job then... did i? My job is to teach what I know to the people in my dojo. tonight, I taught a proper single leg attack at Judo practice for my adult class... want to know why? Because it is good technique and it is fun. Who gives a damn.
12/21/12 4:56 AM
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Spartan79
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Great attitude Josh!
Shame your class isn't in the UK! Phone Post
12/21/12 6:20 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Too damn bad Josh's class isn't in Japan either.
12/21/12 5:32 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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The IJF rule changes are a good thing for us.  We enrolled a person last night because of them. I hope the IJF keeps banning techniques in competition.

12/21/12 10:17 PM
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dynamo
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JoshuaResnick - I teach Judo. I don't care if I am teaching it to people without a gi, people with a gi, people who want to compete or what...

My only objection is when some tool comes to me and says, "teach me some tricks for when i go to MMA or what would you do when somebody does this...?"

it takes years and years and years to get good at Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, whatever... you are not going to learn it in a day, a week, a practice, or whatever...

if you let the IJF limit the way you teach Judo then you are limiting what Judo is. forget that. if the wrestling community can have 3 variations of wrestling with different rules and make adaptations for each in the same tournament and same practice sessions with the same teams and partners then we can do the same in Judo.

lets say I dont teach a kid te-guruma now because the IJF says he cannot use it... but lets say that kid gets into wrestling where he can use it.. and lets say he may have a knack for it, but doesnt know it because of my stupidity in caring about the IJF...

well, I didn't do my job then... did i? My job is to teach what I know to the people in my dojo. tonight, I taught a proper single leg attack at Judo practice for my adult class... want to know why? Because it is good technique and it is fun. Who gives a damn.

THIS/\
1/10/13 6:14 PM
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Osaekomi
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OC Judo/Dynamo/Josh, Been a some time since I have visited/lurked here. Still digging all your opinions and assertions. Potent!
1/11/13 10:08 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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I miss ya Walt!

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