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1/17/13 2:38 PM
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cheesesteak
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flowwiththego -  It would be good if these guys posted vids they want you to learn. Instead it's the kimura trap, come spend money. Phone Post

That's what i'm saying. For instance they will take a basic chain sequence of techniques learned at any good bjj school or that many other instructionals out there cover (not in the same way of course) and slap some kind of name on it like the "armbar destroyer" and bombard mma sites with spamy videos claiming "hey don't just hate when someone catches you in an armbar? Well with this armbar destroyer system fear no armbar ever again!!!!!!!!"

Look I understandd marktering, advertising etc...but there is a classy way and there is an unclassy way.
1/17/13 2:46 PM
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Ebe5
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Ttt Phone Post
1/17/13 10:47 PM
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spartancs
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The problem with those pools is you can just never get rid of the scum floating in them...

1/17/13 11:01 PM
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cheesesteak
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and they are filled with the tears of the scammed
1/17/13 11:49 PM
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Bloodstorm
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Hows your upgrade program and how do you work the pricing for it? Phone Post
1/18/13 1:02 AM
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cheesesteak
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1/18/13 1:27 AM
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whaledog
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Edited: 01/18/13 1:45 AM
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TartanTopTeamsHeroinWhore - 
Marcos Avellan -

Hey cheesesteak, those are testimonials from people that attended the MMA Millionaires event - not necessarily millionaires themselves.  Right now the confirmed gyms we have that are make over $1 million gross with their schools are Lloyd Irvin (obviously), Nakapan Phungephorn, Brad Daddis, and myself.  This year I predict, based on the numbers, that we will have four more guys join the ranks of "million dollar gym".

So basically the only people who are millionaires (a whopping 4!) are the ones who started the pyramid scheme and are at the top of the pyramid.

53 testimonials of which none of them are actually millionaires!! What are they proving - that the system doesn't work?? Lol Phone Post

 

Read carefully.  4 people GROSS $1 million.  There's no mention of what they keep after expenses, rent, fighters' houses, employees' salaries, etc.  NET is what counts.

 

BTW, how does the pyramid element factor in?  I haven't seen any description of what the pyramid is. 

1/18/13 1:29 AM
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ChaosOverkill
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Cult member

1/18/13 2:06 AM
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John Clarke
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Somewhere Chris Brennan is having quite the chuckle. Phone Post
1/18/13 2:22 AM
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cheesesteak
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whaledog - 
TartanTopTeamsHeroinWhore - 
Marcos Avellan -

Hey cheesesteak, those are testimonials from people that attended the MMA Millionaires event - not necessarily millionaires themselves.  Right now the confirmed gyms we have that are make over $1 million gross with their schools are Lloyd Irvin (obviously), Nakapan Phungephorn, Brad Daddis, and myself.  This year I predict, based on the numbers, that we will have four more guys join the ranks of "million dollar gym".

So basically the only people who are millionaires (a whopping 4!) are the ones who started the pyramid scheme and are at the top of the pyramid.

53 testimonials of which none of them are actually millionaires!! What are they proving - that the system doesn't work?? Lol Phone Post

 

Read carefully.  4 people GROSS $1 million.  There's no mention of what they keep after expenses, rent, fighters' houses, employees' salaries, etc.  NET is what counts.

 

BTW, how does the pyramid element factor in?  I haven't seen any description of what the pyramid is. 


Perhaps it isn't a pyramid. But alot of videos i've seen about the class is a bunch of very excited gym owners pitching to other gym owners to join the class...Now this doesn't mean pyramid scheme. it could very well be excited school owners making more $ and wanting every other gym owner how great this "system" is (mlm/pyramid seminar terminology)...Plus it's by Lloyd Irving. Have you seen how many get rich quick shit they have on the internet? It's like a bunch of seminars they sell to sell the idea of being rich to others that sell the idea of being rich. So on and so fourth...and i wouldn't be surprised if the small handfull of people organizing these classes that sell the idea of building a business are raking the big fees to get into the these seminars while the attendees all get a little more poor..

I could very well be wrong here. But you only have 4 million dollar makers in that club...and a bunch of people wanting to make millions...But I can't be totally negative about this seminar as they do teach these gym owners some things they haven't thought of like raising their fees, starting a childrens class, bombarding you with marketing the second you click on their website etc..

So I dunno..I just can't stand Lloyd and anything he or Marcos stand for...
1/18/13 2:47 AM
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whaledog
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Edited: 01/18/13 3:11 AM
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cheesesteak - 
whaledog - 

Read carefully.  4 people GROSS $1 million.  There's no mention of what they keep after expenses, rent, fighters' houses, employees' salaries, etc.  NET is what counts.

 

BTW, how does the pyramid element factor in?  I haven't seen any description of what the pyramid is. 


Perhaps it isn't a pyramid. But alot of videos i've seen about the class is a bunch of very excited gym owners pitching to other gym owners to join the class...Now this doesn't mean pyramid scheme. it could very well be excited school owners making more $ and wanting every other gym owner how great this "system" is (mlm/pyramid seminar terminology)...Plus it's by Lloyd Irving. Have you seen how many get rich quick shit they have on the internet? It's like a bunch of seminars they sell to sell the idea of being rich to others that sell the idea of being rich. So on and so fourth...and i wouldn't be surprised if the small handfull of people organizing these classes that sell the idea of building a business are raking the big fees to get into the these seminars while the attendees all get a little more poor..

I could very well be wrong here. But you only have 4 million dollar makers in that club...and a bunch of people wanting to make millions...But I can't be totally negative about this seminar as they do teach these gym owners some things they haven't thought of like raising their fees, starting a childrens class, bombarding you with marketing the second you click on their website etc..

So I dunno..I just can't stand Lloyd and anything he or Marcos stand for...

 

Well, Lloyd's marketing materials have parallels to those used by some pretty dubious "Internet Marketing" guys. Plus, Lloyd also seems to have some Internet Marketing sites of his own, like mymarketingsecrets.com and myfreeinternetdvd.com.  So, there is reason to be suspicious.

There is an interesting article and video about Internet Marketing guys who run get-rich-quick scams here: Scamworld: 'Get rich quick' schemes mutate into an online monster.

It would be interesting to learn what up-selling he offers to the attendees - stuff like expensive advanced courses, ongoing personal coaching clubs, etc.

Ultimately, however, the question is whether the participants get their money's worth.  If they do, then it's not a scam.

I don't know the answer to that question.  Most of the testimonials I've seen were by people who were taking the seminar and had not yet implemented Lloyd's techniques.  Those don't hold much weight for me.  But, I also saw a testimonial by Tim Credeur, who said that he used Lloyd's techniques to make his school highly profitable.

1/18/13 3:23 AM
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cheesesteak
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whaledog - 
cheesesteak - 
whaledog - 

Read carefully.  4 people GROSS $1 million.  There's no mention of what they keep after expenses, rent, fighters' houses, employees' salaries, etc.  NET is what counts.

 

BTW, how does the pyramid element factor in?  I haven't seen any description of what the pyramid is. 


Perhaps it isn't a pyramid. But alot of videos i've seen about the class is a bunch of very excited gym owners pitching to other gym owners to join the class...Now this doesn't mean pyramid scheme. it could very well be excited school owners making more $ and wanting every other gym owner how great this "system" is (mlm/pyramid seminar terminology)...Plus it's by Lloyd Irving. Have you seen how many get rich quick shit they have on the internet? It's like a bunch of seminars they sell to sell the idea of being rich to others that sell the idea of being rich. So on and so fourth...and i wouldn't be surprised if the small handfull of people organizing these classes that sell the idea of building a business are raking the big fees to get into the these seminars while the attendees all get a little more poor..

I could very well be wrong here. But you only have 4 million dollar makers in that club...and a bunch of people wanting to make millions...But I can't be totally negative about this seminar as they do teach these gym owners some things they haven't thought of like raising their fees, starting a childrens class, bombarding you with marketing the second you click on their website etc..

So I dunno..I just can't stand Lloyd and anything he or Marcos stand for...

 

Well, Lloyd's marketing materials have parallels to those used by some pretty dubious "Internet Marketing" guys. Plus, Lloyd also seems to have some Internet Marketing sites of his own, like mymarketingsecrets.com and myfreeinternetdvd.com.  So, there is reason to be suspicious.

There is an interesting article and video about Internet Marketing guys who run get-rich-quick scams here: Scamworld: 'Get rich quick' schemes mutate into an online monster.

It would be interesting to learn what up-selling he offers to the attendees - stuff like expensive advanced courses, ongoing personal coaching clubs, etc.

Ultimately, however, the question is whether the participants get their money's worth.  If they do, then it's not a scam.

I don't know the answer to that question.  Most of the testimonials I've seen were by people who were taking the seminar and had not yet implemented Lloyd's techniques.  Those don't hold much weight for me.  But, I also saw a testimonial by Tim Credeur, who said that he used Lloyd's techniques to make his school highly profitable.


That's the thing whaledog Tim Creuder, Marcos, Nam big well established names grappling and mma champions...What does Random blackbelt #43 profit from this???????? Or does he keep paying fees in the hopes of profiting that line the top plyers pockets who continue to make inspirational videos that troll the random blackbelts back in for another course...Who knows, I guess..
1/19/13 1:35 PM
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whaledog
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This letter from From Ryan Hall does not paint a pretty picture (about Lloyd's character or business practices):

Unlike players in the NFL or major leagues who tend to be somewhat inaccessible, in the martial arts world, our heroes not only interact with us from time to time, they also frequently peddle a product. In many cases, this product is touted as a magic elixir that will, for only a small fee (sometimes recurring...sometimes without our knowledge), help make us more like them. What’s worse is when some of these “heroes” band together, endorse one another, and double down on their ability to fleece the unsuspecting and impressionable. To call this behavior that of a con artist does a disservice to hard working con artists everywhere—there was a time when one had to get by on his own personal hustle. He had to con you face-to-face and didn’t have the benefit of testimonials to bolster his claims of credibility.

. . .

All joking aside, your idols do not possess the “secret” to life or success any more than anyone else you know does. There are no shortcuts in life, no tricks that allow us to become sustainably wealthy or successful in a fraction of the time. Of course the idea of these things is tempting, but beware those try to convince you of their existence—they are almost certainly selling something. Beware their cronies, as well. A group of ten people independently endorsing one another can seem very compelling until you realize that they are incentivized to do it and probably met behind your back to orchestrate the whole thing.

. . .

However, there do exist individuals who make their living by preying on the hopes, dreams, insecurities, and sometimes laziness and outright stupidity of the people who look up to them. They are professionals at creating a persona that is larger than life, so-great-it’s-incredible, specifically designed to engender the feeling of “I can’t believe I’m so blessed to know this guy who will lead me to the promised land.” Most of them work off of the same playbook, but when you don’t know that the playbook exists, they can seem highly impressive. Perhaps you have read about some of these people. Perhaps you know one. Perhaps you are one. If you are, there’s a good chance that you are a pawn in someone else’s game the same way that some others are pawns to you. Congratulations on your participation in a pyramid scheme. You must be very proud of yourself.

1/19/13 2:02 PM
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Sherdoggystyle
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cheesesteak - 
TartanTopTeamsHeroinWhore - 
Marcos Avellan -

Hey cheesesteak, those are testimonials from people that attended the MMA Millionaires event - not necessarily millionaires themselves.  Right now the confirmed gyms we have that are make over $1 million gross with their schools are Lloyd Irvin (obviously), Nakapan Phungephorn, Brad Daddis, and myself.  This year I predict, based on the numbers, that we will have four more guys join the ranks of "million dollar gym".

So basically the only people who are millionaires (a whopping 4!) are the ones who started the pyramid scheme and are at the top of the pyramid.

53 testimonials of which none of them are actually millionaires!! What are they proving - that the system doesn't work?? Lol Phone Post

Exactly how I see it. A few weeks ago I was so close to letting Marcos know that this sound like a pyramid scheme something resembling the get rich quick MLM seminars people at work would try to pull me into and I would politely pass on. But I wanted to be respectful to Marcos and wished him and all the other random blackbelts (the people footing the bill) good luck and left it at that.

Forgive my ignorance, but what about this is a pyramid scheme? It seems like all they're doing is giving gyms a recipe for success (i.e. how to run them in a profitable manner). A pyramid scheme usually involves selling a product to you to sell to other people, who will sell to other people.

I may be missing something here so someone please fill in the blanks.
1/19/13 2:41 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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Disciple Dojo, L3C, Founder

Ryan Hall's open letter is one of the most well-written things I've ever read from a martial artist, hands down.

 

If you haven't read it (and regardless of anything having to do with TLI), you really should.

1/19/13 4:08 PM
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Bloodstorm
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DiscipleDojo -

Ryan Hall's open letter is one of the most well-written things I've ever read from a martial artist, hands down.

 

If you haven't read it (and regardless of anything having to do with TLI), you really should.

It reminded me of the movie V for Vendetta Phone Post
1/19/13 5:36 PM
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cheesesteak
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Sherdoggystyle - 
cheesesteak - 
TartanTopTeamsHeroinWhore - 
Marcos Avellan -

Hey cheesesteak, those are testimonials from people that attended the MMA Millionaires event - not necessarily millionaires themselves.  Right now the confirmed gyms we have that are make over $1 million gross with their schools are Lloyd Irvin (obviously), Nakapan Phungephorn, Brad Daddis, and myself.  This year I predict, based on the numbers, that we will have four more guys join the ranks of "million dollar gym".

So basically the only people who are millionaires (a whopping 4!) are the ones who started the pyramid scheme and are at the top of the pyramid.

53 testimonials of which none of them are actually millionaires!! What are they proving - that the system doesn't work?? Lol Phone Post

Exactly how I see it. A few weeks ago I was so close to letting Marcos know that this sound like a pyramid scheme something resembling the get rich quick MLM seminars people at work would try to pull me into and I would politely pass on. But I wanted to be respectful to Marcos and wished him and all the other random blackbelts (the people footing the bill) good luck and left it at that.

Forgive my ignorance, but what about this is a pyramid scheme? It seems like all they're doing is giving gyms a recipe for success (i.e. how to run them in a profitable manner). A pyramid scheme usually involves selling a product to you to sell to other people, who will sell to other people.

I may be missing something here so someone please fill in the blanks.

In my opinion it's a pyramid scheme that also offers some value, but the way the program is marketed and how everyone who does it wants to bring another gym owner friend of theirs and they all are spreading the word just makes it seem pyramidish, atleast in the marketing of it. leving me to beleive the high end people of that triangle are making mad $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ from the seminar and making joe schmoe black belt believe he will have a million+ a year dojo. This is just my opinion.
1/19/13 6:07 PM
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Bryan72
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At no point in the seminars is there any promise of things being easy or easy money. It's quite the opposite, there's a ton of things to work on. Phone Post
1/19/13 6:35 PM
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cheesesteak
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Bryan72 -  At no point in the seminars is there any promise of things being easy or easy money. It's quite the opposite, there's a ton of things to work on. Phone Post

Exactly, that's how MLM works too...The allure is money, boats, the easy life forever, eating lobster...It's in the way they real you in to make $$$$$$$ of fees and they continuously try to bombard you with wealth images and they play on your primal instinct of how the brain becomes irrational when they can get you to think of not just being well off, but rather filthy rich...and tell you to spread the word...and then jackasses like lloyd and marcos reap all the $$$$$$$ from joe schmoe blackbelt and all his blackbelt friends he got to show up and pay fees also...This is where the MLM comes in play.... Succeeding in business is always difficult with a ton of things to work on...That's a given..
1/19/13 6:44 PM
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cheesesteak
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Basically what i'm trying to say is that LLoyd has figured out a way to combine MLM with real world value. BUT..Let me say this...he makes everyone at the seminar a clone of him...So when you see a mma gym in your area and you check out their site you get bombard heavily with testimonials, greed driven charity drives, raffles, spam..it's overwhelming and resemles 90's MLM cheesey websites...and yes I suppose that it can get schools to increase their enrollment volume ...but I believe that type of 90's cheesy spam 100's of testimonial marketing will no sustain enrollments...I think over time you get know as that cheesy school that only cares about selling everything and anything and eventually no one wants to train at that cheeseball place...Again my opinion.

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