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UnderGround Forums >> Is BJ Penn really an all time great?


12/9/12 9:48 AM
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InspiritMick
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Loss Trevor Berbick Decision (unanimous) 10 (10) December 11, 1981 39 years, 328 days The Bahamas Nassau, Bahamas "Drama in the Bahamas"[90]
Loss Larry Holmes TKO (Corner Stoppage) 10 (15) October 2, 1980 38 years, 259 days United States Las Vegas, NV Lost The Ring World Heavyweight title. For WBC World Heavyweight title.
Win Leon Spinks Decision (unanimous) 15 (15) September 15, 1978 36 years, 241 days United States New Orleans, LA Won The Ring & WBA World Heavyweight titles;
Vacated WBA title on 1979-09-06.
Loss Leon Spinks Decision (split) 15 (15) February 15, 1978 36 years, 29 days United States Las Vegas, NV Lost The Ring, WBC & WBA World Heavyweight titles.
Win Earnie Shavers Decision (unanimous) 15 (15) September 29, 1977 35 years, 255 days United States New York City Retained The Ring, WBC & WBA World Heavyweight titles.
               
12/9/12 10:02 AM
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Olive Garden Table For One
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He's had plenty of gimmes and screwed them up. The Lw division was created to get a belt on penn and he lost to Jens, drew with UNO and killed the division for years.

He came back to beat sherk and a bunch of tuf'ers.

Great fighter to watch. But not atg Phone Post
12/9/12 10:08 AM
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Kingofny23
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How does OP's level of retardation allow him to use a computer? Phone Post
12/9/12 10:14 AM
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guardbr8kr
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all time great LW , for sure.
12/9/12 10:25 AM
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BubblesNS
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Kevin Arnold - I joined here in 2012, I've been following MMA since the late 90's so save that crap.

I would have to say BJ is an all time great. I should have worded the question differently and asked if BJ's career has been a disappointment overall based on how he started and how much better he could have been.

I am a huge BJ fan and am just disappointed with how his last two fights have gone and how it's really looking like he's finished.
This Phone Post
12/9/12 10:34 AM
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sniper1026
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BJ needs to train at the Jackson camp.

He needs to leave the comfort of his old camp that is filled with his relatives & a bunch of yes...men.
12/9/12 8:13 PM
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RKing85
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If BJ fought his entire career at 155, he would be the greatest fighter of all time.

But since he went up in weight so often and took fights he had no business taking, he will just go down in history as a very, VERY good fighter.
12/9/12 8:22 PM
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Olive Garden Table For One
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RKing85 - If BJ fought his entire career at 155, he would be the greatest fighter of all time.

But since he went up in weight so often and took fights he had no business taking, he will just go down in history as a very, VERY good fighter.

How many greats did he fight at 155? Gomi, Sherk, Uno, Edgar. So, he's 2-3-1 in his biggest LW fights. 

He was the greatest at beating up Tuf'ers at 155. Edgar has already surpassed BJ's LW greatness. Frankie beat Bendo and everybody knows it.

12/9/12 9:13 PM
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orcus
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"Yes, because at LW he's been a beast. And of those loses how many fights were at WW, and against guys like GSP x 2, Machida, Diaz, Rory."

Is it possible that had he stayed at LW for an extended stretch he would have been spotty there too? Maybe Nate could have done the same thing to him that Nick did? Benson likely would have beaten him in the same way as Edgar did...etc.

12/9/12 10:22 PM
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Samoa
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orcus -

"Yes, because at LW he's been a beast. And of those loses how many fights were at WW, and against guys like GSP x 2, Machida, Diaz, Rory."

Is it possible that had he stayed at LW for an extended stretch he would have been spotty there too? Maybe Nate could have done the same thing to him that Nick did? Benson likely would have beaten him in the same way as Edgar did...etc.

Anything is possible. Phone Post
12/9/12 10:30 PM
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G-Hands
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BJ & Randy Couture are in the same boat.

Not a good record, but deffo hall of fame legendary fighters.

Two division champs = doesn't matter what their records are. Then you add in the people they've beat... shiiiiiit.

legends.
12/10/12 12:37 AM
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Fedoral Crime
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Olive Garden Table For One -
RKing85 - If BJ fought his entire career at 155, he would be the greatest fighter of all time.

But since he went up in weight so often and took fights he had no business taking, he will just go down in history as a very, VERY good fighter.

How many greats did he fight at 155? Gomi, Sherk, Uno, Edgar. So, he's 2-3-1 in his biggest LW fights. 

He was the greatest at beating up Tuf'ers at 155. Edgar has already surpassed BJ's LW greatness. Frankie beat Bendo and everybody knows it.

I thought he knocked Uno the fuck out? Phone Post
12/10/12 12:39 AM
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Megatherium
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Pulver was his only loss in his lightweight prime.

Most thought he won the Uno draw.

And Uno was good!
12/10/12 12:59 AM
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Fedoral Crime
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Megatherium - Pulver was his only loss in his lightweight prime.

Most thought he won the Uno draw.

And Uno was good!
If he didn't beat Uno, who is the young Asian gentleman that got annihilated against the cage in one of BJ's most famous KOs? Phone Post
12/10/12 2:50 AM
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Megatherium
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Megatherium - Pulver was his only loss in his lightweight prime.

Most thought he won the Uno draw.

And Uno was good!
If he didn't beat Uno, who is the young Asian gentleman that got annihilated against the cage in one of BJ's most famous KOs? Phone Post

Uno
12/10/12 3:04 AM
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Dmoney35
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best lw ever IMO Phone Post
12/10/12 4:44 AM
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Farewell Brock
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Well hes the greatest 155er ever so I'm going to say he'd an all time great. Phone Post
12/10/12 8:11 AM
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Olive Garden Table For One
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Olive Garden Table For One -
RKing85 - If BJ fought his entire career at 155, he would be the greatest fighter of all time.

But since he went up in weight so often and took fights he had no business taking, he will just go down in history as a very, VERY good fighter.

How many greats did he fight at 155? Gomi, Sherk, Uno, Edgar. So, he's 2-3-1 in his biggest LW fights. 

He was the greatest at beating up Tuf'ers at 155. Edgar has already surpassed BJ's LW greatness. Frankie beat Bendo and everybody knows it.

I thought he knocked Uno the fuck out? Phone Post

Then drew with Uno when the UFC was desperately trying to put the title on him. He fucked that, and the division for years.

If people want to give BJ the Uno decision, they should take back the gift he got against Serra.

 

12/10/12 8:46 AM
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LiftStrong
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Kind of torn on this. Cant challenge the fact he is fearless and always brings it. Just looking at his record though, he beat everyone he should beat and lost to everyone he should lose to (Hughes being the exception). .500 in title fights over his career. UFC HOFer, yeah definitely. Not sure how he will be remembered 10 years from now though.
12/10/12 8:56 AM
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BearsDownAzzUp
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BJ fought EVERYONE put in front of him in like 5 different weight classes. He has fought the who's who of MMA the last decade.

He IS an all time great and should be treated as such. To question it is simply retarded.
12/10/12 9:07 AM
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Whambo
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He definately has taken fights he shouldn't have taken, and his record reflects that. The Rory fight was my most solid pick for the last card, it was so obvious to me Rory was going to beat him.

FFS he is a natural LW and decided to fight a LHW with a perfect record and has now been a top LHW for several years.

Hard to critisize him for going back to WW when the first fight with GSP was so close, but he really should have dropped right back down after what Hughes did to him in their 2nd fight. Taking that 2nd GSP fight was crazy and again should have told him to get out of WW. And he did... for a little bit.. I get why he took the Hughes vs Penn III fight, but to go against 3 of the top WW's for his next fights was crazy. He shoulda been fighting Nate, not Nick.

The sports changed, while Penn is still one of the most skilled athletes to have competed in MMA, he doesn't have the physical gifts that the top guys have. There is a big difference between Penn and Henderson in terms of explosiveness, strength, cardio, and speed.

He's still a top guy, could probably be at the very cusp at the top 10 WW's, and probably #3 for LW's, but he will never win another UFC title.


12/10/12 10:29 AM
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Ministry of Truth
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Samoa -  All time great without a doubt in my opinion......but he's letting questions creep into the discussion by continuing to fight at 170. Bringing it on himself.

He and Randy don't have the records because IMO are all time greats. If you just go by records (this is an opinon thing) then probably not. Personally I look at who they fought, and overall accomplishments. They both get on my list. Phone Post

"but he's letting questions creep into the discussion by continuing to fight at 170. Bringing it on himself."

Pretty much what I was going to write. It seems as though BJ has needed better management (and trainers) for years now.
12/10/12 11:45 AM
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Samoa
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BJ had big balls fighting guys like Loyoto and Hughes back in the day.  The sport was what it was at that point and his skill set was such that he could bounce divisions and be competitive.  Today, the sport has evolved to the point that only the very elite in the prime portion of their career (Anderson Silva) are able to do it.  It isn't 2004 and the competition is much more intense.

I don't think Penn has had what it takes to be a contender since his fights with Edgar.  Not because of his skillset, but because he simply refused to train the way he should (with the Marinovich's?) and compete in his natural division.  When you're younger and more athletic is when you take chances.  When you are older and less explosive and the deficit has either been eliminated or at minimum severely narrowed, you need to become more conservative, fight in the right division and train harder than you ever have.  Penn hasn't had that mentality since the first Edgar fight.

Just my opinion; I've always been a huge BJ Penn fan, but watching his career since Edgar has been like watching your favorite football team run the same plays over and over that don't work and after getting frustrated watching that happen, they not only run the same plays but now they are fumbling it as well.

Peek ahp da ball and go to da beach aready BJ.

 


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