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UnderGround Forums >> Relson: Don't know self-defense? U don't know BJJ


12/12/12 5:52 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Kirik - 
joe canada - Anyone else notice Relson stole Bas Rutten's defensive "the thinker" posture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oc4BGmOp-A

Bas Rutten, a legend's legend!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Relson has been doing that longer :-)


12/12/12 5:56 PM
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303
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And yes Relson, was the most "street" of the original Gracies. I think he coined the phrase "Don't be scared homie: in portugese long ago.

I think he and Ryan (RIP) probably had a lot in common.
12/12/12 6:21 PM
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ricksongjj
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ttt
12/12/12 6:22 PM
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Xspur
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Kudos to connection Rio. Love what they got going on down there!
Gracie is correct here. Also I'd like to point out the difference between a "street fight" and "self defense". A true martial artist, in my opinion, only "fights" in the gym. Defending yourself starts with going out of your way to avoid any altercations altogether. Phone Post
12/12/12 6:29 PM
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Newaza freak
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So on the street's, if Marcelo Garcia get 's caught in a bear hug,he's going to be clue less?

Lol Phone Post
12/12/12 6:58 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 12/12/12 7:13 PM
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Xspur - 

Kudos to connection Rio. Love what they got going on down there!
Gracie is correct here. Also I'd like to point out the difference between a "street fight" and "self defense". A true martial artist, in my opinion, only "fights" in the gym. Defending yourself starts with going out of your way to avoid any altercations altogether. Phone Post



" A true martial artist, in my opinion, only "fights" in the gym. "

So what is your self defense strategy, pull down your pants, bend over and ask them to be gentle?

Obviously you avoid unneccesarry trouble, but these are skills for what you can't avoid. If you honestly think there are NO legitimate self defense applications, you seriously lack a moral compass.
12/12/12 7:26 PM
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joe canada
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Kirik - 
joe canada - Anyone else notice Relson stole Bas Rutten's defensive "the thinker" posture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oc4BGmOp-A

Bas Rutten, a legend's legend!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Relson has been doing that longer :-)


Oh you will, will you? Then answer me this, Smart Guy:

Bas Rutten -- All the Gracie Kids ger an R name.

Coincidence? Or TRIBUTE!?!?
12/12/12 9:38 PM
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Newaza freak -  So on the street's, if Marcelo Garcia get 's caught in a bear hug,he's going to be clue less?

Lol Phone Post

No, and that is not what Relson, or anyone here was saying. Obviously if Marcelo was in a street confrontation he would be leaps and bounds ahead of 99% of anyone he is fighting.

I think the point that people are trying to get across is there is a difference between the techniques that you would use in a street altercation and sport BJJ. I guess what would prove this point is there are many world class BJJ fighters that step into the cage and get beat by people who are not near the level in BJJ that the world class BJJ fighter is. As Cesar Gracie said "you are not going to win a MMA fight (or street fight for that matter) using IBJJF rules." Hopefully you see the distinction of what Relson is trying to say.
12/13/12 12:17 AM
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Xspur
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GladiatorGannon - 
Xspur - 

Kudos to connection Rio. Love what they got going on down there!
Gracie is correct here. Also I'd like to point out the difference between a "street fight" and "self defense". A true martial artist, in my opinion, only "fights" in the gym. Defending yourself starts with going out of your way to avoid any altercations altogether. Phone Post



" A true martial artist, in my opinion, only "fights" in the gym. "

So what is your self defense strategy, pull down your pants, bend over and ask them to be gentle?

Obviously you avoid unneccesarry trouble, but these are skills for what you can't avoid. If you honestly think there are NO legitimate self defense applications, you seriously lack a moral compass.

Pretty funny, lol, pull my pants down.....

Actually in most places mutual combat is illegal and both participants can end up in jail. So a more "self defense" strategy would involve not squaring up with someone. Being friendly and assuming a non threatening stance. Then, at the last possible moment counter attacking, or attacking with speed, force, and efficiency to finish it quickly. But only after all other avenues of withdrawal are explored.

My point was that many people who train just to fight will tend to square up when threatened. That is not self defense, that's fighting. I was simply trying to express my opinion that there is often a difference between fighting and self defense. Does that mean that A fight may never present itself? No, I simply intend to present a thought that fighting and defending yourself are not one in the same.
12/13/12 12:29 AM
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Seats Taken
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Edited: 12/13/12 12:36 AM
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Were I train we always a self defense series then a Sport BJJ oriented series. There are a lot of guys that are really good at technical sport BJJ that would panic or shut down in a real life situation. Same with any art. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


12/13/12 8:37 AM
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Ministry of Truth
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NickLaney - 
Ministry of Truth - 
ShoeMoney - 

Of course you don't know any self defense if you don't know BJJ (or any martial art).

In other news if you can't add numbers together then you don't know math.


I think you mean "you don't know addition." Knowing how to add numbers does not equate with knowing math.

But yeah, I agree.

I think you both misunderstood the statement.. I believe what he meant was that you can learn BJJ (Chokes and joint locks normally associated with competition) but if you dont also learn the self defense techniques (how to escape from bear hugs and headlocks) then you dont really "know" a complete Jiu Jitsu.

Im not smart enough to come up with a better math analogy, maybe self defense would be the numbers and Sport BJJ would be addition, subtraction etc, they are parts that make up the whole of the art (Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Mathematics)

Oh I understand what you wrote, and in fact posted something along those lines earlier in this thread (did you read it?).

What you quoted was just a direct response to ShoeMoney's weak analogy.
12/13/12 12:04 PM
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NickLaney
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Ministry of Truth - 
NickLaney - 
Ministry of Truth - 
ShoeMoney - 

Of course you don't know any self defense if you don't know BJJ (or any martial art).

In other news if you can't add numbers together then you don't know math.


I think you mean "you don't know addition." Knowing how to add numbers does not equate with knowing math.

But yeah, I agree.

I think you both misunderstood the statement.. I believe what he meant was that you can learn BJJ (Chokes and joint locks normally associated with competition) but if you dont also learn the self defense techniques (how to escape from bear hugs and headlocks) then you dont really "know" a complete Jiu Jitsu.

Im not smart enough to come up with a better math analogy, maybe self defense would be the numbers and Sport BJJ would be addition, subtraction etc, they are parts that make up the whole of the art (Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Mathematics)

Oh I understand what you wrote, and in fact posted something along those lines earlier in this thread (did you read it?).

What you quoted was just a direct response to ShoeMoney's weak analogy.

I did see that actually I must have missed it was you that posted, I agree completely about street application. Im lucky enough to train under a Royce BB and we stress the SD at our academy. I know the SD techniques work because I have used them doing security for a Nightclub in CO.
12/13/12 12:07 PM
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NickLaney
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303 - 
KidJustice - 

Relson Gracie Jiu Jitsu is heavy on Self defense technique. That is why I'm a Relson Gracie student. I love BJJ, but I also love that there is a very proven self defense system that Relson is very serious about.


Both KidJustice and I are on Team Relson Gracie, and KidJustice is one of the best self defense instructors I know so I am going to go out on a limb and say if he says that TRG is heavy on self defense and very effective at it then that is how it is.

I can tell you I have had the pleasure of training under a few different BJJ guys and the stuff we learn, at least to me is more effective than what I have learned other places. Don't get me wrong I learned a lot at other places, but I am enjoying what I am getting on this team more than I have others. It seems to me that Roger's game is a lot like Relsons. He is so good at the basics, and doesn't make things more complcated than they should be. That is why we see Roger tap guys with things that people say are so basic they do not understand how other high level guys are getting tapped with that stuff.

I love learning the self defense aspect of it, but at the same time there are some amazing black belts on TRG and affiliated with TRG that the competitors are no joke either. To just give you an idea of how effective the people who compete in Colorado are Team Relson Gracie has been around in Denver since late 2009-2010 and according to a few promoters we are the fastest growing teams in the state, and we are placing in overall team standing higher than other teams that have been around for years. We have opened up 4 different gyms in the Denver area and have over 300 students. I know at the gym KidJustice and I go to has the largest kids program I have ever seen. People want to learn what works and what doesn't, and judging by the growth of the team here the curriculum, and the that Relson passed down to the black belts who run the gyms here obviously is different, effective, and works.

303

Steve is a SUPER cool guy and an insanely talented player and instructor, I was lucky enough to attend a Relson seminar at his school and it was amazing.
12/13/12 12:26 PM
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gravedigger
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DanTheWolfman - 
joe canada - Anyone else notice Relson stole Bas Rutten's defensive "the thinker" posture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oc4BGmOp-A

Bas Rutten, a legend's legend!

Relson was always the STREET one, showed this at one of the seminars in 1997's where I trained.

Also, my sentiments on the issue, and how BJJ has gone away from it's roots I talk about in my Epic Old Martial Arts Vid thread, where there is tons of great self-defense stuff.

It was SD, then Vale Tudo, then Gi, then No Gi....
Not Gi, No Gi, MMA, SD like today,

And should be SD, MMA, No Gi, Gi IMO

Good point Dan. I was also caught up in the sport side of BJJ. But I want to explore the more SD side of it. Seems to me slightly more pratical as you get older.
12/13/12 12:29 PM
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Ministry of Truth
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NickLaney - 
Ministry of Truth - 
NickLaney - 
Ministry of Truth - 
ShoeMoney - 

Of course you don't know any self defense if you don't know BJJ (or any martial art).

In other news if you can't add numbers together then you don't know math.


I think you mean "you don't know addition." Knowing how to add numbers does not equate with knowing math.

But yeah, I agree.

I think you both misunderstood the statement.. I believe what he meant was that you can learn BJJ (Chokes and joint locks normally associated with competition) but if you dont also learn the self defense techniques (how to escape from bear hugs and headlocks) then you dont really "know" a complete Jiu Jitsu.

Im not smart enough to come up with a better math analogy, maybe self defense would be the numbers and Sport BJJ would be addition, subtraction etc, they are parts that make up the whole of the art (Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Mathematics)

Oh I understand what you wrote, and in fact posted something along those lines earlier in this thread (did you read it?).

What you quoted was just a direct response to ShoeMoney's weak analogy.

I did see that actually I must have missed it was you that posted, I agree completely about street application. Im lucky enough to train under a Royce BB and we stress the SD at our academy. I know the SD techniques work because I have used them doing security for a Nightclub in CO.

Yeah, I totally think it works as well.

The problem with just learning sport BJJ is you don't train for the weird things that actually happen in street fights (headlocks, being knocked/pushed down, being grabbed from behind, etc.). If some ridiculously strong guy grabs me in a headlock, I'm comfortable that I know what to do. And it's not something I learned from sport BJJ at all.
12/13/12 8:12 PM
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NickLaney - 
303 - 
KidJustice - 

Relson Gracie Jiu Jitsu is heavy on Self defense technique. That is why I'm a Relson Gracie student. I love BJJ, but I also love that there is a very proven self defense system that Relson is very serious about.


Both KidJustice and I are on Team Relson Gracie, and KidJustice is one of the best self defense instructors I know so I am going to go out on a limb and say if he says that TRG is heavy on self defense and very effective at it then that is how it is.

I can tell you I have had the pleasure of training under a few different BJJ guys and the stuff we learn, at least to me is more effective than what I have learned other places. Don't get me wrong I learned a lot at other places, but I am enjoying what I am getting on this team more than I have others. It seems to me that Roger's game is a lot like Relsons. He is so good at the basics, and doesn't make things more complcated than they should be. That is why we see Roger tap guys with things that people say are so basic they do not understand how other high level guys are getting tapped with that stuff.

I love learning the self defense aspect of it, but at the same time there are some amazing black belts on TRG and affiliated with TRG that the competitors are no joke either. To just give you an idea of how effective the people who compete in Colorado are Team Relson Gracie has been around in Denver since late 2009-2010 and according to a few promoters we are the fastest growing teams in the state, and we are placing in overall team standing higher than other teams that have been around for years. We have opened up 4 different gyms in the Denver area and have over 300 students. I know at the gym KidJustice and I go to has the largest kids program I have ever seen. People want to learn what works and what doesn't, and judging by the growth of the team here the curriculum, and the that Relson passed down to the black belts who run the gyms here obviously is different, effective, and works.

303

Steve is a SUPER cool guy and an insanely talented player and instructor, I was lucky enough to attend a Relson seminar at his school and it was amazing.

Nick, let me know next time you are going in I would love to meet you and roll with you. What night club do you work at? My cancer bills are pretty crazy and I have been looking to get back into bouncing for a while. I ran security for 4 clubs in Denver when I was in college. Not sure if where you work is looking for anyone but if so let me know.

As far as how talented Steve is, I can say that in my opinion he probably is the best jits player in Colorado. We have 3-4 black belts that train with us and he seems to always make it look like he is barely putting out any work and ends up tapping them. I think Steve is going to start competing again this year and I am pretty excited to see how he does on the World level. I have seen Steve trade submissions with Javy Vasquez and felt honored just to be in the same room watching them go at each other.

Shoot me a PM and hopefully we can get on the mat sometime soon. Plus there is a MMA opportunity I can pass on to you if you are interested.


Jason Miller
12/13/12 10:03 PM
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TheDecider
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Everyone keeps referencing bear hugs and headlocks but what about punches? This is IMO the biggest problem with sport jiu jitsu. Headlock escapes can be learned in a day. Learning to position yourself to be out of danger from punches as you transition through an infinate number of positions, scrambles ect. takes a long time and lots of practice.
12/14/12 2:37 PM
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greenhornet
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TheDecider - Everyone keeps referencing bear hugs and headlocks but what about punches? This is IMO the biggest problem with sport jiu jitsu. Headlock escapes can be learned in a day. Learning to position yourself to be out of danger from punches as you transition through an infinate number of positions, scrambles ect. takes a long time and lots of practice.

Decider, I've gone through some of his stuff. He teaches you to avoid certain ranges. You really want to avoid a slug fest with anyone. So if someone is showing hostle intend, he shows how to stand in a non-threatening but strategic way to defend yourself. He will show you how to keep that distance from punches & kicks, also from a wresler's takedowns but if the guy keeps coming he'll show you how to effectively close the distance while keeping yourself safe. (Think Royce in UFC 1-3) He keeps it simmple but very effective.

I hope this answers your question.

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