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UnderGround Forums >> Each UFC card should only Feature 1 Weight Class


12/14/12 6:08 AM
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MMALOGIC
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Edited: 12/14/12 6:26 AM
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Letibleu - If the UFC was a German factory geared towards efficiency and productivity you sir would be the big boss person.

However this is entertainment. Variety is required. There are also a gazillion financial and practical reasons this would never float.

I could see a card here and there dominated with a certain weight class such as the now defunct Strikeforce HW tourney cards but definitely not financially viable for both the promoter and the fighters outside of that frequency.
 

 

your first argument is that this is entertainment....  those HW, LHW cards wouldnt be entertaining?  were you entertained by ufc 146's main card?

 

your second argument is that variety is required...  what does this mean?  variety could be fighters from all over the world which you get in this model... variety can mean every card is a different weight class which you get in this model...  variety can also mean a mix of different weight classes on the same card which I assume is what you're talking about.  and you have a right to that opinion.  In my opinion after one experiences the format proposed in this thread most would not like the current format... it just wouldnt make any sense.

in the current format the average viewer does not understand the relevance nor context of roughly 10 out of the 12 fights on a card... these are just watching fights for the sake of watching fights or to kill time before the main event.  this is a dangerous path because you can watch fights on youtube anytime so the novelty of watching fights on tv is wearing off and moreover you place too much weight on just 2 fights on a card which leads to injuries damaging your business, a handfull of stars with too much leverage, etc...

Your last argument is that there are a gazillion financial and practical reasons why this wouldnt work...  since you didnt name one i cant respond to this.

Im proposing only a simple test.  just test it out on one weight class.  Just test it out on the 155lb class.  It has the depth and it's not a ppv property like the 170 plus divisions so there's very little risk.

Let's test it in a way that has very little risk and see what happens.  if im right it will revolutionize fight sports and take the UFC to a whole new level... if im wrong there's very little damage.

just do it with the 155lb division and I bet at best it will become a major league TV property where the monetization from ad supported networks, sponsorhsips and a possible subscription model would surpass ppv revenue and at worst, it would develop the LW division into a major ppv property.   that's my estimation.

Im laying out all the theoretical benefits that far outweigh the current system and Im simply proposing a way to test it with very little risk.

The only risk i see with this test is that this is so successful at 155 it hurts the other cards which are still mixed.... I believe if this is successful people will not like mixed cards anymore as they wont make sense... which is a good problem to have because then all you'd do is roll it out to the rest of the divisions.

12/14/12 6:15 AM
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beanouno
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Only problem I see is when the next card comes round and its got to be similar fighters for the next card. Cards need diversity. Phone Post
12/14/12 6:18 AM
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redrum85 -  Cool idea but I don't see it work out in the long run, like other said it limits the flexibility of fights, let say u get injured 1 month before ur fight and you'd be ready in 2-3, you'll have to wait even longer.and more of a chance of getting injured again in training. I do miss tournament style events tho! Phone Post

well if you're injured 1 month before the fight and you're out 2-3 months...  and the next event is 4 months later then that means you will be ready to start your camp right on time for the next event because you'll have 2 months to train for the next event.

let's do the math again...  you pull out of the event a month before and you are sidelined 3 months.  events for your division are 4 months apart...  so that means by the time you are healed you'll have 2 months to train for the next event which is perfect.

ultimately there's a cost to getting injured.  this structure will help guys train smarter...   it's like a bus... if you miss one you know when the next one is coming so this will be fine.

12/14/12 6:23 AM
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beanouno -  Only problem I see is when the next card comes round and its got to be similar fighters for the next card. Cards need diversity. Phone Post

there 4 months apart and inbetween your gonna have cards roughly every 2 weeks featuring a different weight class so when the 4 months comes around you're gonna miss these same guys.

also guys will be falling out due to losses and injury so there will be some new faces everytime and you'll have guys moving up where you'll  be able to follow career progression of each fighter in an easier and simpler way.

12/14/12 6:37 AM
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Let me illustrate how powerful this model can be...

Fedor vs werdum pulled 420k viewers with a 700k peak...

SF then put on an all HW card... they pulled 750k viewers (nearly double) and peaked with 1.1 million (400k more than the peak of the werdum fight)

1.1 million on showtime is an absolutely incredible number.

I believe the model being proposed in this thread will revolutionize fight sports.

 

12/14/12 6:41 AM
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NorthFromHere
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MMALOGIC - 

Let me illustrate how powerful this model can be...

Fedor vs werdum pulled 420k viewers with a 700k peak...

SF then put on an all HW card... they pulled 750k viewers (nearly double) and peaked with 1.1 million (400k more than the peak of the werdum fight)

1.1 million on showtime is an absolutely incredible number.

I believe the model being proposed in this thread will revolutionize fight sports.

 


"SF then put on an all HW card."
This is the main point. It was a heavyweight card.
12/14/12 7:00 AM
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willienugget - 
MMALOGIC - 

since it would be prudent to test this model on one weight class first to prove it's efficacy and success before rolling it out... i propose the LW division.  for 2 reasons:

1) it's matured and got depth.

2) it's not a ppv product yet (unlike 170) so there's little to no downside risk in implementing this.

I would place these fights on Fox at least 3 times and then move to ppv to prove the efficacy and success of this model.

here's what the next LW card could look like in under this structure/model:

Main Card:

Bendo vs Melendez (title fight)

Pettis vs Cerrone (title eliminator)

Alavarez va Maynard (winner could possibly be in next title eliminator)

Louzan vs Jim Miller (winner could possibly be in next title eliminator)

Diego Sanchez vs Nate Diaz (winner goe back into the mix)

Prelims:

Varner vs Guillard

Gomi vs sherk

Dos Anjos vs Khabib

and fill the rest with matches you think would make the most sense:  tj grant, wiman, barboza, tibaou, volkman, yves, etc...

that would be a sick card... and more importantly it would continue to be a sick card because in this structure you got a never ending tournament style hybrid of a roundrobin/ladder system.

Place that bad boy on fox 3 times and you got a ppv product that will last forever no matter who's champ.... but ultimately i believe this model will be so successful free tv and subscription licensing fees will far surpass ppv revenue.

conversely under the current fighter cenric system as soon as BJ penn left  they had to start all over with the division in terms of promotion.

Imagine if Frankie and Bendo came up under the model im proposing....  it would have been mma orgasm after mma orgasm. the division wouldnt have skipped a significant beat with frankie and bendo taking it over.

again we wouldnt only be excited about a fight, we'd be excited about the entire LW events.

This is a simple test im proposing... take the 155lb division into this structure/model and see what happens.


OK let's say a week before the fight, Melendez has to pull out. You give Bendo someone from the bullshit leftover? Do you bump Pettis up to fight Bendo and then change the matchups for all fighters on the card? One way you've got your champ fighting someone undeserving and the other way you've fucked up the lives of every fighter on the card. We could just say no fight for our champ this time eh?

UFC146 may have worked out but it is not a model for future success. It was more like, "Well that went off but let's not try that bullshit again."

yes, you bump the guy who makes the most sense in this case being pettis.  what you do with the rest of the card depends when the changes are being made.  (how far the promotional materials have been created how much bets have taken place on existing fights... yes, this may matter). 

You're saying a week before the fight... you dont even have to change any other fight.  You can simply give cerrone his show and win money, air him on camera during the event for his apperal sponsor and place him in the next title eliminator on the next card.  simple dimple.

you then bump up a prelim fight to the main card and bump a facebook fight to the prelim.  easy fix.

how can you say pettis is underserving?  if a guy is in a title eliminator he's the next deserving guy.  is he as deserving as the #1 contender? no... but shit happens.  if melendez got hurt 3 months before, pettis would have gotten the shot anyway.  this happens all the time now so why do you think this is a problem casued by the model proposed in this thread?

At least with this model the next best guy is there ready, willing and able to fill in.... even on a weaks notice

if cerrone still wants a fight as a tune up... every lw in the world will know the lw card is on this date and alot of them will be ready and waiting for a call.

now statistically 3 fighters are gonna fall out so 3 guys will be without opponents at some point (on average)... so you match 2 of those guys against each other and either pay the 3rd guy without a fight or call one of the lw's waiting by the phone.

it worked on 146 because it's a simple fix.  I just showed you how it would work on this hypothetical card.... the same way it worked on 146 and on this hypothetical card it would work on every other card that features only one weight class.

moving forward on average 3 fighters per card will be pulling out... this model is a great way to virtually resolve the damge this problematic reality causes..

12/14/12 7:08 AM
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Edited: 12/14/12 7:20 AM
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NorthFromHere - 
MMALOGIC - 

Let me illustrate how powerful this model can be...

Fedor vs werdum pulled 420k viewers with a 700k peak...

SF then put on an all HW card... they pulled 750k viewers (nearly double) and peaked with 1.1 million (400k more than the peak of the werdum fight)

1.1 million on showtime is an absolutely incredible number.

I believe the model being proposed in this thread will revolutionize fight sports.

 


"SF then put on an all HW card."
This is the main point. It was a heavyweight card.

 

so you dont think it would have the same increase if it was an all LHW card with one big LHW fight vs a card with only one LHW fight? 

 

or an All MW card with one big MW fight vs a card with only 1 big MW fight? or an all WW card with 1 big WW fight vs a card with only 1 big WW fight?

let's illustrate it this way:

Jones vs Hendo (ufc 152).  it wasnt tracking like a blockbusterl... so we can reasonably say the buys would be around 400k... or maybe 450k.  like his fight against machida.

you place:  

gustaffson vs shogun

glover vs rampage

Machida vs Rashad or whatever...

and fill the rest of teh card with LHW's (bader, little nog, tehuna, manuwa, jimmo, hammil, vera, etc....

Here's my point.  if the card under the current structure is gonna pull 450k buys.  the card in the model being proposed in this thread can theoretically  pull 800k plus buys.

yes, you have more variable costs with rashad, rampage, etc... but you also have fixed costs (production, promotion, etc...) you're not doubling the cost... but you're doubling the revenue which means more than doubling the profits.  and you only have a fixed number of ppv events so you have to maximize it.

moreover ufc 152 would not have been cancelled...  how much did that cost zuffa?  20 million meltzer estimates.

12/14/12 7:51 AM
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MMALOGIC
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^ we would see the increase for every division short term except 145, 135 and 125.  I believe the increase for these smaller divisions will be long term.  they are already at basement levels no matter what HW, LHW fights you place on cards headlined by them it pulls basement level numbers.

I dont think the contrast helps because then people keep comparing the lighter weights to the heavier weights.  I believe an all 145lb card would do wonders for the division.  the wec was awesome because you didnt have that contrast.

tuf 15 was all BW and FW... the fights were great and the ratings were great.

I would place the main cards of 155, 145, 135 and 125 on free television and i would schedule their events inbetween the marquee divisions.

I would schedule in the following order:

1) 155

2) HW

3) 145

4) LHW

5) 135

6) MW

7) 125

8) ww

9) 115

I would first only test this with the 155lb division. once it proves successful i would roll it out to the next deepest division which is 170.... and then LHW... and then MW and HW.  And then 145, then 135, then 125 and finally 115.

female mma can kiss my ass.  i suppose you can eventually test that as well if the division every becomes deep enough or just place all female divisions on one card until it develops.

 

12/14/12 8:21 AM
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Edited: 12/14/12 8:27 AM
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^ so who were fucked more... the fighters on UFC 152 where the card had to be cancelled or the fighters on ufc 146 where the card was saved?

injuries are gonna happen.  UFC 146 was able to handle it and make the best of the situation whereas UFC 152 was not.

with ufc 146 for the most part the fighters who were prepared to compete were happy, the fans who bought tickets and ppv's were happy, and zuffa was happy.

with ufc152 the fighters who were prepared to compete but didnt were upset, the fans who booked hotels and flights were pissed and zuffa lost 20 million.

You tell me which one was better for the fighters, the fans and zuffa?

You dont wanna wait 4 months for a WW fight is a different argument and you have your right to feel that way.  I would only say that you would have mega events inbetween those 4 months in other weight classes to hold you over.

12/14/12 8:52 AM
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PhallicObjekt
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I like this idea.

Then I do not have to wait through boring man let midget mma.

I have no interest in watching 135lbs men playing pitter patter with each other.

I don't buy the cliche garbage about exciting fights that they put on.

These guys in general lack finishing power and it means boring fights without much knockouts. I'm sure there are exceptions but for the most part midget mma bores me.

Just do a cycle or two like everybody else and make the 155 cut off already. Phone Post
12/14/12 8:55 AM
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^ yes... in the model being proposed on this thread you can simply skip an entire event if you dont like a particular weight class.

12/14/12 9:02 AM
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the only thing i left out are the varsity jackets... we must have varsity jackets to make this work.

12/14/12 9:06 AM
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JBASS
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MMALOGIC - 

^ yes... in the model being proposed on this thread you can simply skip an entire event if you dont like a particular weight class.


I think this may be a problem for the UFC in regards to it's sponsors. They know that the smaller guys haven't been built up yet like they were in the WEC and aren't a huge draw (yet, I believe they will be soon enough). They aren't going to want to pay for sponsorship promotion during events that have the potential to draw low numbers.

Sponsors of the UFC obviously do research on the market and what it is wanting, they would be silly if they didn't and obviously sponsor the UFC to reach their preferred demographic. With so many people openly dismissing the lighter weight classes, an all Flyweight card could scare away sponsors.

Just my .02
12/14/12 9:15 AM
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Edited: 12/14/12 9:22 AM
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^ this is true.  this is why i would transition those divisions into this model last (if it proves effective)... this way they have more time to develop (talent, depth and marketability). 

And this is why i would place them with their title fights on free tv first.  The sponsorhsips and audience will take care of itself at that point.  

Mcdonald vs Barao title fight 

picket vs wineland

faber vs menjivar

and filling the rest of the card with great 135lb matchups will pull great ratings for FX fight nights.

I believe the contrast on these mixed cards are hurting the lighter weights.  when you place a 135lb fight next to a LHW fight it looks less appealing than it really is.  chunk them together and it's easier to appreciate.  easier to follow, etc..

12/14/12 9:18 AM
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RPBJJ
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I like it.

Injuries wouldnt ruin it. If everyone in a weight class is getting in shape at the same time it would be easy to back fill drop out due to injury.

12/14/12 9:25 AM
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^ it solves the injury problem... it solves the challenges in understanding the relevancy and context of certin fights problem... it solves the oversaturation problem.... it solves the watering down problem... it solves the mma becoming too much like boxing problem...

12/14/12 8:08 PM
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JBASS
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willienugget - Let's take a different angle. Why isn't the UFC already doing this? If it has potential to solve all their problems and make all their fans happy, why wouldn't they be doing it? There's got to be a reason they could give us more but don't.

Having been in business myself, one thing I figured out is giving the customers what they want more often than not will cause you to go out of business. Not saying that this idea would cause that to happen to the UFC, but as you said there's got to be a reason/reasons as to why the UFC doesn't do that.

There's obviously a lot more to this than we on the UG can see from our perspectives.
12/14/12 9:01 PM
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JBASS -
willienugget - Let's take a different angle. Why isn't the UFC already doing this? If it has potential to solve all their problems and make all their fans happy, why wouldn't they be doing it? There's got to be a reason they could give us more but don't.

Having been in business myself, one thing I figured out is giving the customers what they want more often than not will cause you to go out of business. Not saying that this idea would cause that to happen to the UFC, but as you said there's got to be a reason/reasons as to why the UFC doesn't do that.

There's obviously a lot more to this than we on the UG can see from our perspectives.
Or maybe they're too focused on saving tuf and haven't thought of it. Its unlikely but possible Phone Post
12/14/12 11:53 PM
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Edited: 12/15/12 12:00 AM
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JBASS - 
willienugget - Let's take a different angle. Why isn't the UFC already doing this? If it has potential to solve all their problems and make all their fans happy, why wouldn't they be doing it? There's got to be a reason they could give us more but don't.

Having been in business myself, one thing I figured out is giving the customers what they want more often than not will cause you to go out of business. Not saying that this idea would cause that to happen to the UFC, but as you said there's got to be a reason/reasons as to why the UFC doesn't do that.

There's obviously a lot more to this than we on the UG can see from our perspectives.

 

well Dana has been hinting at major stuff that's gonna completely change the game... so who knows.

Even though the model being proposed on this thread seems to be the most ideal system, the UFC was really never in a position to impliment it until now.

You need thr right TV partners, the right roster... and you need to start with a heafty chunk of the talent in order for it to work.  for example if Bellator implimented this... meh.  it would be an improvement but it wouldnt be earth shattering.... 

with SF going away, a strong partnership with Fox, and now having a virtual talent monpoly... The UFC is in the perfect position to actually impliment this.... and only in the UFC can this model revolutionize fight sports.

12/14/12 11:59 PM
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willienugget - Let's take a different angle. Why isn't the UFC already doing this? If it has potential to solve all their problems and make all their fans happy, why wouldn't they be doing it? There's got to be a reason they could give us more but don't.

Ideas come when their time is right.  The idea of google would be worthless in the 80's.

the UFC was never really in a position to impliment this model... you need the right roster (quality/size) and the right tv partner.  with SF being absorbed and a strong partnership with fox they are now in a position to do something like this.

We have arrived to a time and in an environement where it's right for this idea to be implimented.

12/15/12 11:00 AM
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Letibleu
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Letibleu - If the UFC was a German factory geared towards efficiency and productivity you sir would be the big boss person.

However this is entertainment. Variety is required. There are also a gazillion financial and practical reasons this would never float.

I could see a card here and there dominated with a certain weight class such as the now defunct Strikeforce HW tourney cards but definitely not financially viable for both the promoter and the fighters outside of that frequency.
 

 

your first argument is that this is entertainment....  those HW, LHW cards wouldnt be entertaining?  were you entertained by ufc 146's main card?

 

your second argument is that variety is required...  what does this mean?  variety could be fighters from all over the world which you get in this model... variety can mean every card is a different weight class which you get in this model...  variety can also mean a mix of different weight classes on the same card which I assume is what you're talking about.  and you have a right to that opinion.  In my opinion after one experiences the format proposed in this thread most would not like the current format... it just wouldnt make any sense.

in the current format the average viewer does not understand the relevance nor context of roughly 10 out of the 12 fights on a card... these are just watching fights for the sake of watching fights or to kill time before the main event.  this is a dangerous path because you can watch fights on youtube anytime so the novelty of watching fights on tv is wearing off and moreover you place too much weight on just 2 fights on a card which leads to injuries damaging your business, a handfull of stars with too much leverage, etc...

Your last argument is that there are a gazillion financial and practical reasons why this wouldnt work...  since you didnt name one i cant respond to this.

Im proposing only a simple test.  just test it out on one weight class.  Just test it out on the 155lb class.  It has the depth and it's not a ppv property like the 170 plus divisions so there's very little risk.

Let's test it in a way that has very little risk and see what happens.  if im right it will revolutionize fight sports and take the UFC to a whole new level... if im wrong there's very little damage.

just do it with the 155lb division and I bet at best it will become a major league TV property where the monetization from ad supported networks, sponsorhsips and a possible subscription model would surpass ppv revenue and at worst, it would develop the LW division into a major ppv property.   that's my estimation.

Im laying out all the theoretical benefits that far outweigh the current system and Im simply proposing a way to test it with very little risk.

The only risk i see with this test is that this is so successful at 155 it hurts the other cards which are still mixed.... I believe if this is successful people will not like mixed cards anymore as they wont make sense... which is a good problem to have because then all you'd do is roll it out to the rest of the divisions.


Wow...um, k.

You took the time to mount argument. I'll give you my time of day and construct a rebuttal. I will have to take the time to read everything already written to not be redundant. It will have to wait until this afternoon.

12/15/12 11:10 AM
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12/15/12 7:24 PM
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I think you overestimate how often these guys, especially top guys fight. Otherwise it's a capital idea. Phone Post
12/15/12 8:02 PM
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JBASS
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CLINTK9 - 
Letibleu - 
MMALOGIC - 
Letibleu - If the UFC was a German factory geared towards efficiency and productivity you sir would be the big boss person.

However this is entertainment. Variety is required. There are also a gazillion financial and practical reasons this would never float.

I could see a card here and there dominated with a certain weight class such as the now defunct Strikeforce HW tourney cards but definitely not financially viable for both the promoter and the fighters outside of that frequency.
 

 

your first argument is that this is entertainment....  those HW, LHW cards wouldnt be entertaining?  were you entertained by ufc 146's main card?

 

your second argument is that variety is required...  what does this mean?  variety could be fighters from all over the world which you get in this model... variety can mean every card is a different weight class which you get in this model...  variety can also mean a mix of different weight classes on the same card which I assume is what you're talking about.  and you have a right to that opinion.  In my opinion after one experiences the format proposed in this thread most would not like the current format... it just wouldnt make any sense.

in the current format the average viewer does not understand the relevance nor context of roughly 10 out of the 12 fights on a card... these are just watching fights for the sake of watching fights or to kill time before the main event.  this is a dangerous path because you can watch fights on youtube anytime so the novelty of watching fights on tv is wearing off and moreover you place too much weight on just 2 fights on a card which leads to injuries damaging your business, a handfull of stars with too much leverage, etc...

Your last argument is that there are a gazillion financial and practical reasons why this wouldnt work...  since you didnt name one i cant respond to this.

Im proposing only a simple test.  just test it out on one weight class.  Just test it out on the 155lb class.  It has the depth and it's not a ppv property like the 170 plus divisions so there's very little risk.

Let's test it in a way that has very little risk and see what happens.  if im right it will revolutionize fight sports and take the UFC to a whole new level... if im wrong there's very little damage.

just do it with the 155lb division and I bet at best it will become a major league TV property where the monetization from ad supported networks, sponsorhsips and a possible subscription model would surpass ppv revenue and at worst, it would develop the LW division into a major ppv property.   that's my estimation.

Im laying out all the theoretical benefits that far outweigh the current system and Im simply proposing a way to test it with very little risk.

The only risk i see with this test is that this is so successful at 155 it hurts the other cards which are still mixed.... I believe if this is successful people will not like mixed cards anymore as they wont make sense... which is a good problem to have because then all you'd do is roll it out to the rest of the divisions.


Wow...um, k.

You took the time to mount argument. I'll give you my time of day and construct a rebuttal. I will have to take the time to read everything already written to not be redundant. It will have to wait until this afternoon.


ttt for "gazillion financial and practical reasons this would never float"

seriously, I'd like to see some negs on this idea, as I cant think of any that would make me not want to see this or do this if I was running UFC.

they are semi doing it already in March with gsp/diaz, condit/macdonald on same card.

I stated it previously that I think the threat of a low PPV buy or viewership during the lighter weight classes would be enough to scare them off of doing that. There is already so much fan backlash about Flyweight title fights being put on cards above other fights - I don't think they really want to think about what a whole Flyweight card would do.

Like I have also stated previously, I think it's a great model and something I would love to see implemented. I just don't think it's realistic at this stage of the UFC.

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