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12/30/12 4:53 PM
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John Frankl
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High level sprinting?
12/30/12 5:23 PM
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UGCTT_45forever
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John Frankl - High level sprinting?
Very first thing I was told to do by my instructor,mostly if blades were involved though. Phone Post
12/30/12 5:37 PM
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Moke
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The only thing that bothers me about judo competition sometimes is this:

The whole purpose of throwing is to get your opponent to the ground with you in a superior position (or score a ko). Yet a lot of times, the guy throwing ends up in an inferior position when it hits the ground, yet he wins because of the throw.
12/30/12 9:03 PM
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aaronlapoi
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Moke - The only thing that bothers me about judo competition sometimes is this:

The whole purpose of throwing is to get your opponent to the ground with you in a superior position (or score a ko). Yet a lot of times, the guy throwing ends up in an inferior position when it hits the ground, yet he wins because of the throw.

True, but only because it's not easy to throw another judoka. Against a less experienced person, a high level judoka would probably not end up in an inferior position on the ground.
12/30/12 11:05 PM
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vitor3000
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if the mat was concrete it would be game ova!
12/31/12 11:07 AM
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SlapUsilly
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BJJ is in vogue these days, and a damn fine art too for self defense, but from experience - black belt in bjj and brown in judo - Judo makes some tough sons (and daughters) of bitches.
12/31/12 2:57 PM
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krept
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vitor3000 - if the mat was concrete it would be game ova!

Exacto. My sensei used to say, "nothing hits harder than the ground."

I'll tell you where judo would rule - hockey fights. Skates make a higher center of gravity that is easy to hip under, jersey made to withstand serious grabs...
12/31/12 3:24 PM
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Moke
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In that case, the primary throw should be suplexes, and the fight should be in getting that clinch.

I wish I could find a video I saw online about ten years ago (but have never seen since). It was a road rage incident. Everyone had pulled over near a freeway underpass, and two guys from one car were pissed and trying to instigate a fight with a third guy who was alone. He tried to calm them down but they kept getting angrier until one guy rushed the lone guy.

The lone guy ducked the punch, got a body-lock and suplexed the guy onto his head right next to the curb. Boom, out cold. Then other guy rushes in and it was a repeat performance...duck-under, clinch, suplex, unconscious.

It was a thing of beauty.
12/31/12 4:41 PM
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shen
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Not to be a contrarian, but you can't REALLY say what a particular throw or take-down would do --even on concrete. Wrestling & judo throws are designed to be "safe".

Just like a punch or kick, any takedown can have a range of effects from "no effect whatsoever" to "K.O./ serious injury/ death"

Just because you throw someone on concrete doesn't mean they "die". Ever been to a skate park? You fall on concrete all day long. Never seen anyone die.

If you watch street fights with "high" throws, many times they DON'T seem to have much immediate effect on the opponent --the guy just pops back up. Obviously, other times they DO have great effect. --Which is my point; don't overestimate the value of any technique.

But I mean, look at this guy getting suplexed on cement, no apparent effect:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xesr1h_police-crime-videos-fight-w-suplex_news#.UOIAvORqQk8


This suplex, hard to tell what happens afterwards, but he too is right back up:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47c_1326402748&comments=1


When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them.
12/31/12 4:57 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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aaronlapoi - 
Moke - The only thing that bothers me about judo competition sometimes is this:

The whole purpose of throwing is to get your opponent to the ground with you in a superior position (or score a ko). Yet a lot of times, the guy throwing ends up in an inferior position when it hits the ground, yet he wins because of the throw.

True, but only because it's not easy to throw another judoka. Against a less experienced person, a high level judoka would probably not end up in an inferior position on the ground.

While this is true.....it seems to make the assumption that the opponent is unskilled v. the skilled judoka.

How many "high level" judokas train to deal with strikes? and what off the possibility of meeting a decent wrestler with some decent hands, or BJJer?

If we assume the opponent would be somewhat skilled and have an ability to strike with a moderate level of power and accuracy then clinch and entries to the clinch w/strikes IMHO is required on a regular basis.....and this is the failing of most grappler training.

Can the average judoka beatdown the avg scrub?.....SURE! as would the avg. BJJ, wrestler, boxer or kickboxer. IME the various types of grapplers have good foundation of skills for their narrowly defined sport, but require a braoder, fundamental level of other skills to be more effective, efficient and safer in a fight.

For example, teaching a grappler (judoka, BJJer, wrestler)a thai clinch and knees, elbow strikes and heabutts and hooks should be fairly easy. As would be clinching positions andversion of various throws and using strikes to setup those throws. Add a few covers&entries and the grappler has a much better chance of successfully ending a fight w/o much or any injury to themselves.
12/31/12 4:58 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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shen - 
Not to be a contrarian, but you can't REALLY say what a particular throw or take-down would do --even on concrete. Wrestling & judo throws are designed to be "safe".

Just like a punch or kick, any takedown can have a range of effects from "no effect whatsoever" to "K.O./ serious injury/ death"

Just because you throw someone on concrete doesn't mean they "die". Ever been to a skate park? You fall on concrete all day long. Never seen anyone die.

If you watch street fights with "high" throws, many times they DON'T seem to have much immediate effect on the opponent --the guy just pops back up. Obviously, other times they DO have great effect. --Which is my point; don't overestimate the value of any technique.

But I mean, look at this guy getting suplexed on cement, no apparent effect:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xesr1h_police-crime-videos-fight-w-suplex_news#.UOIAvORqQk8


This suplex, hard to tell what happens afterwards, but he too is right back up:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47c_1326402748&comments=1


When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them.

"When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them."

TROOF!
12/31/12 6:13 PM
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Team Python
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Sgt. Slaphead - 
aaronlapoi - 
Moke - The only thing that bothers me about judo competition sometimes is this:

The whole purpose of throwing is to get your opponent to the ground with you in a superior position (or score a ko). Yet a lot of times, the guy throwing ends up in an inferior position when it hits the ground, yet he wins because of the throw.

True, but only because it's not easy to throw another judoka. Against a less experienced person, a high level judoka would probably not end up in an inferior position on the ground.

While this is true.....it seems to make the assumption that the opponent is unskilled v. the skilled judoka.

How many "high level" judokas train to deal with strikes? and what off the possibility of meeting a decent wrestler with some decent hands, or BJJer?

If we assume the opponent would be somewhat skilled and have an ability to strike with a moderate level of power and accuracy then clinch and entries to the clinch w/strikes IMHO is required on a regular basis.....and this is the failing of most grappler training.

Can the average judoka beatdown the avg scrub?.....SURE! as would the avg. BJJ, wrestler, boxer or kickboxer. IME the various types of grapplers have good foundation of skills for their narrowly defined sport, but require a braoder, fundamental level of other skills to be more effective, efficient and safer in a fight.

For example, teaching a grappler (judoka, BJJer, wrestler)a thai clinch and knees, elbow strikes and heabutts and hooks should be fairly easy. As would be clinching positions andversion of various throws and using strikes to setup those throws. Add a few covers&entries and the grappler has a much better chance of successfully ending a fight w/o much or any injury to themselves.

This brings up a good question...... do they train to do deal with punches at Judo schools. I know for a fact that a lot of BJJ schools don't so I wonder if this is the same situation at Judo schools as well. It is one thing getting a hold of someone for a throw but how many punches is a Judoka going to eat before that happens.
12/31/12 6:15 PM
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John Frankl
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"Very first thing I was told to do by my instructor,mostly if blades were involved though."

Great if you see a blade in advance, like in a cool James Dean movie:) But sometimes you don't know blades are involved until they are already in you:(
12/31/12 6:30 PM
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Kway
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Sgt. Slaphead - 
shen - 
Not to be a contrarian, but you can't REALLY say what a particular throw or take-down would do --even on concrete. Wrestling & judo throws are designed to be "safe".

Just like a punch or kick, any takedown can have a range of effects from "no effect whatsoever" to "K.O./ serious injury/ death"

Just because you throw someone on concrete doesn't mean they "die". Ever been to a skate park? You fall on concrete all day long. Never seen anyone die.

If you watch street fights with "high" throws, many times they DON'T seem to have much immediate effect on the opponent --the guy just pops back up. Obviously, other times they DO have great effect. --Which is my point; don't overestimate the value of any technique.

But I mean, look at this guy getting suplexed on cement, no apparent effect:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xesr1h_police-crime-videos-fight-w-suplex_news#.UOIAvORqQk8


This suplex, hard to tell what happens afterwards, but he too is right back up:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47c_1326402748&comments=1


When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them.

"When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them."

TROOF!

I was going to start a thread about this.

There are countless videos of street fights where people get thrown on cement...and then bounce right back up.
12/31/12 7:09 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Team Python - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 
aaronlapoi - 
Moke - The only thing that bothers me about judo competition sometimes is this:

The whole purpose of throwing is to get your opponent to the ground with you in a superior position (or score a ko). Yet a lot of times, the guy throwing ends up in an inferior position when it hits the ground, yet he wins because of the throw.

True, but only because it's not easy to throw another judoka. Against a less experienced person, a high level judoka would probably not end up in an inferior position on the ground.

While this is true.....it seems to make the assumption that the opponent is unskilled v. the skilled judoka.

How many "high level" judokas train to deal with strikes? and what off the possibility of meeting a decent wrestler with some decent hands, or BJJer?

If we assume the opponent would be somewhat skilled and have an ability to strike with a moderate level of power and accuracy then clinch and entries to the clinch w/strikes IMHO is required on a regular basis.....and this is the failing of most grappler training.

Can the average judoka beatdown the avg scrub?.....SURE! as would the avg. BJJ, wrestler, boxer or kickboxer. IME the various types of grapplers have good foundation of skills for their narrowly defined sport, but require a braoder, fundamental level of other skills to be more effective, efficient and safer in a fight.

For example, teaching a grappler (judoka, BJJer, wrestler)a thai clinch and knees, elbow strikes and heabutts and hooks should be fairly easy. As would be clinching positions andversion of various throws and using strikes to setup those throws. Add a few covers&entries and the grappler has a much better chance of successfully ending a fight w/o much or any injury to themselves.

This brings up a good question...... do they train to do deal with punches at Judo schools. I know for a fact that a lot of BJJ schools don't so I wonder if this is the same situation at Judo schools as well. It is one thing getting a hold of someone for a throw but how many punches is a Judoka going to eat before that happens.

TP---- "It is one thing getting a hold of someone for a throw but how many punches is a Judoka going to eat before that happens."

I would change that to.... It is one thing getting a hold of someone for a throw but how many punches MIGHT a Judoka eat before that happens.

The same applies to any grappler and my points are about lessening the chances of injury/damage to the grappler and doing damage to their opponent.

Shen's point of....."...when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained." is the heart of the matter. Generally, judoka tend toward a more upright posture and seek grips from outside of close clinch. Wrestlers and BJJers tend toward a more crouched defensive posture and are not constrained by certain rules. Either way, if one doesn't regularly deal with strikingfrom the outside and entering ino the clinch, then they stand a lot more chance of being injured attempting to close the distance and obtain grips/clinch. And I would also add that unless they have some basic striking skills, their attempts to use strikes would be inefficient, less effective and possibly place them in more danger when it comes to the subject of "self defense"
12/31/12 7:23 PM
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Jacks Wasted Life
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Interesting thread. I think you combine judo, bjj or wrestling with boxing or MT and you're going to be in very good shape for defending yourself in a scrap. All of these styles have their strengths and weaknesses but all are effective, tested methods of grappling and striking (respectively). Phone Post
12/31/12 8:22 PM
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PoWdA101
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The "multiple attackers" argument is moot. I dont think any martial aret is good against multiple attackers. Judo and bjj are both great and "the best" against a single attacker. Against 2 or more people? I dont care what you know but good luck. Phone Post
12/31/12 9:22 PM
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shen
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Edited: 12/31/12 10:06 PM
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^ Very true.

I'd say, it's a glimpse into the "overly optimistic" mindset of many martial artists who think fighting multiple opponents is something they can do with ease if they just study the right stuff.

I teach grappling at a Krav Maga studio and hear this concern over "BJJ not being good against multiple attackers" voiced, not infrequently, by people who couldn't fight their way out from underneath a pile of dry leaves.

1/2/13 12:59 AM
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pcuzz
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Kway - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 
shen - 
Not to be a contrarian, but you can't REALLY say what a particular throw or take-down would do --even on concrete. Wrestling & judo throws are designed to be "safe".

Just like a punch or kick, any takedown can have a range of effects from "no effect whatsoever" to "K.O./ serious injury/ death"

Just because you throw someone on concrete doesn't mean they "die". Ever been to a skate park? You fall on concrete all day long. Never seen anyone die.

If you watch street fights with "high" throws, many times they DON'T seem to have much immediate effect on the opponent --the guy just pops back up. Obviously, other times they DO have great effect. --Which is my point; don't overestimate the value of any technique.

But I mean, look at this guy getting suplexed on cement, no apparent effect:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xesr1h_police-crime-videos-fight-w-suplex_news#.UOIAvORqQk8


This suplex, hard to tell what happens afterwards, but he too is right back up:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47c_1326402748&comments=1


When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them.

"When you are trained through countless reps to land people on their shoulders or side, when you get in a fight you are most likely going to respond the way you were trained. And if someone is relatively young / healthy / aggressive, with adrenaline pumping, falling on some even cement isn't always going to have much of an effect on them."

TROOF!

I was going to start a thread about this.

There are countless videos of street fights where people get thrown on cement...and then bounce right back up.

What about being thrown on broken glass and dirty needles?
1/2/13 1:06 AM
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pcuzz
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PoWdA101 -  The "multiple attackers" argument is moot. I dont think any martial aret is good against multiple attackers. Judo and bjj are both great and "the best" against a single attacker. Against 2 or more people? I dont care what you know but good luck. Phone Post

Back years ago in my Kyokushin days we drilled arounf fighting multiple attackers. It only worked because the attackers were pulling punches and only used the aloowed techniques.
When I look back after many years tho there was some decent thoughts about movement and lining up the atackers so that you were only fighing 1 at a time, using the surroundings such as furniture, walls or vehicles to your advantage, impovising weapons and running if possible.
1/2/13 3:58 AM
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Spartan79
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One thing is for sure in a real dirty street fight landing a clean throw and walking away is a very hard thing to do for even the most skilled grappler.
Even a unskilled but highly aggressive construction worker will hold onto you for dear life and chances are your both going down in the scramble and its going to be real dirty down there. biting , fish hooking, head butting, their friends putting the boot/ heal in .
I'd rather know a bit about throwing , being thrown and ground work than not but if I can avoid the clinch and use strikes alone I will . Phone Post
1/2/13 5:33 AM
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Moke
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But then you come full circle. If the other guy is good at striking, you'd best be getting a clinch, even if you're good at striking too...so long as you're good at grappling anyways...

Even so, even if you're just good at clinch-fighting, and you don't want to take it to the ground, you can control things better from the clinch and land more damaging blows while avoiding his...unless he's just ridiculously bigger and stronger than you.
1/2/13 1:26 PM
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aaronlapoi
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I agree that mixing styles (e.g., boxing and BJJ) is probably the best self-defense, but here is why I see judo as the best stand-alone self-defense.

1. I don't have any statistics to back it up, but I'm assuming that most self-defense situations end up in clinching range real quick, if not immediately. I don't consider two guys squaring off ufc style to be genuine self-defense since those situations can probably be avoided 9 times out of 10.

2. As previously mentioned, a judoka can go to the ground following a throw, but they don't have to.

3. Judokas, like wrestlers, are at the top of the food chain when it comes to pinning. This is important if someone wants to immobilize the attacker in order to diffuse the situation and/or wait for help.

4. You can throw someone with control and minimize damage if you want/need to. Much harder to do that with striking.

5. I'm guessing it would be much easier to defend yourself in Court. "We got tangled up and he fell to the ground." Striking on the other hand often implies you were an aggressor and may have inflicted unnecessary damage.

Anyway, just my opinion.
1/4/13 2:48 PM
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Christophr
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Regardless of how good your Judo is, on the street any untrained jerkoff can come from out of nowhere and tackle you.
1/4/13 4:32 PM
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MickColins
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Aaron being corrupted by judo bullies influence :( Phone Post

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