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UnderGround Forums >> JDS smashing the mitts with Glaube Feitosa


12/30/12 1:00 AM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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AttentionDeficitDizzle - Just watching him punch for a couple minutes I can already identify two major fundamental weaknesses a good striker would exploit.

1. He opens up when he throws, does not protect himself, and is always exposed while he throws punches. A decent counter-puncher would only need 1 round to counter him and start confusing him and reduce him to pacing and being tentative and boring to watch. He leaves his head open, has no fundamental movement in how he throws that protects his head, which hardly moves.

All Cain would need to do is move forward left or right, under or over those punches, and counter. He could step in and come over that jab with a right hand and JDS would have his head just sitting there waiting to be hit. Most fighters probably move back and step away from JDS, which is a poor strategy because of his speed and reach and accuracy when he has distance. You don't want to give him distance. You need to cut him off coming forward and get inside him and come over his jab and step around him and hook him down and up. Guys like him have nothing without distance and their opponents move backward away from their power. When they can come forward and step into punches throwing those lazy wide open punches and their opponent isn't cutting them off making them pay for it, they get confident and keep coming forward and learn those kinds of habits. If he's had good competition in the ring he would be getting caught and confused early in fights.

2. JDS isn't pivoting into his punches with natural body movement where he's moving his head and shoulders and swaying in and out and efficiently breathing and throwing combinations that are natural shots.

This means not only is he exposed and not covering up, but he's predictable and inefficient, which means if you engage him and keep him busy punching while cutting him off then he'll tire quickly. No one who fights like that can avoid getting tired late in a fight. If Cain bangs inside with him and counters him, ties him up, does not create a lot of distance for JDS to open up and get space to unload his power, then JDS will tire. Cain should continuously pressure JDS and move forward into him, step around him to the side away from his power hand, go to the body, tie him up and frustrate him, counter him, it'll be easy to wear him out and set him up for the KO or a to be taken down. He needs to not let JDS have distance to throw those power shots. That's scary for a lot of guys because it goes against instinct but against poor punchers it is gold.

Exactly what happened!! At no point in that 1st round did Cain back up, he went forward and confused and hurt him early coming over and around the punches.

JDS has poor boxing and anyone countering and coming forward is going to start tagging and hurting and confusing him. That is exactly what Cain did. He came in, banged him, made him pay, tied him up, got him off balance, and exactly like I called it he tired him out right away.

Any decent boxing gym would be able to make this analysis because it is fundamental boxing. Cain did almost everything right with how he pressured and moved forward, he never went backward during the fight, he pivoted when he threw punches and moved his head coming in, he didn't just stand upright like JDS did. JDS was a target the whole fight and never defended his head and look at him, destroyed.

I knew if Cain won this fight it would be because he didn't make the same mistake JDS's previous opponents made, which was give JDS distance and respect.
12/30/12 2:01 AM
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Brian J DSouza
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Props!

12/30/12 2:14 AM
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yellow's Overseer
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AttentionDeficitDizzle -
AttentionDeficitDizzle - Just watching him punch for a couple minutes I can already identify two major fundamental weaknesses a good striker would exploit.

1. He opens up when he throws, does not protect himself, and is always exposed while he throws punches. A decent counter-puncher would only need 1 round to counter him and start confusing him and reduce him to pacing and being tentative and boring to watch. He leaves his head open, has no fundamental movement in how he throws that protects his head, which hardly moves.

All Cain would need to do is move forward left or right, under or over those punches, and counter. He could step in and come over that jab with a right hand and JDS would have his head just sitting there waiting to be hit. Most fighters probably move back and step away from JDS, which is a poor strategy because of his speed and reach and accuracy when he has distance. You don't want to give him distance. You need to cut him off coming forward and get inside him and come over his jab and step around him and hook him down and up. Guys like him have nothing without distance and their opponents move backward away from their power. When they can come forward and step into punches throwing those lazy wide open punches and their opponent isn't cutting them off making them pay for it, they get confident and keep coming forward and learn those kinds of habits. If he's had good competition in the ring he would be getting caught and confused early in fights.

2. JDS isn't pivoting into his punches with natural body movement where he's moving his head and shoulders and swaying in and out and efficiently breathing and throwing combinations that are natural shots.

This means not only is he exposed and not covering up, but he's predictable and inefficient, which means if you engage him and keep him busy punching while cutting him off then he'll tire quickly. No one who fights like that can avoid getting tired late in a fight. If Cain bangs inside with him and counters him, ties him up, does not create a lot of distance for JDS to open up and get space to unload his power, then JDS will tire. Cain should continuously pressure JDS and move forward into him, step around him to the side away from his power hand, go to the body, tie him up and frustrate him, counter him, it'll be easy to wear him out and set him up for the KO or a to be taken down. He needs to not let JDS have distance to throw those power shots. That's scary for a lot of guys because it goes against instinct but against poor punchers it is gold.

Exactly what happened!! At no point in that 1st round did Cain back up, he went forward and confused and hurt him early coming over and around the punches.

JDS has poor boxing and anyone countering and coming forward is going to start tagging and hurting and confusing him. That is exactly what Cain did. He came in, banged him, made him pay, tied him up, got him off balance, and exactly like I called it he tired him out right away.

Any decent boxing gym would be able to make this analysis because it is fundamental boxing. Cain did almost everything right with how he pressured and moved forward, he never went backward during the fight, he pivoted when he threw punches and moved his head coming in, he didn't just stand upright like JDS did. JDS was a target the whole fight and never defended his head and look at him, destroyed.

I knew if Cain won this fight it would be because he didn't make the same mistake JDS's previous opponents made, which was give JDS distance and respect.
Dude, you rule. Phone Post
12/30/12 2:15 AM
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yellow's Overseer
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AttentionDeficitDizzle - ^ My prediction based on my analysis is that Cain wins if he moves forward, uses pressure, and moves his head and tries to counter.

^JDS will win if Cain backs up on the feet and doesn't move forward defensively.
VTFU Phone Post
12/30/12 2:21 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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AttentionDeficitDizzle - 
AttentionDeficitDizzle - Just watching him punch for a couple minutes I can already identify two major fundamental weaknesses a good striker would exploit.

1. He opens up when he throws, does not protect himself, and is always exposed while he throws punches. A decent counter-puncher would only need 1 round to counter him and start confusing him and reduce him to pacing and being tentative and boring to watch. He leaves his head open, has no fundamental movement in how he throws that protects his head, which hardly moves.

All Cain would need to do is move forward left or right, under or over those punches, and counter. He could step in and come over that jab with a right hand and JDS would have his head just sitting there waiting to be hit. Most fighters probably move back and step away from JDS, which is a poor strategy because of his speed and reach and accuracy when he has distance. You don't want to give him distance. You need to cut him off coming forward and get inside him and come over his jab and step around him and hook him down and up. Guys like him have nothing without distance and their opponents move backward away from their power. When they can come forward and step into punches throwing those lazy wide open punches and their opponent isn't cutting them off making them pay for it, they get confident and keep coming forward and learn those kinds of habits. If he's had good competition in the ring he would be getting caught and confused early in fights.

2. JDS isn't pivoting into his punches with natural body movement where he's moving his head and shoulders and swaying in and out and efficiently breathing and throwing combinations that are natural shots.

This means not only is he exposed and not covering up, but he's predictable and inefficient, which means if you engage him and keep him busy punching while cutting him off then he'll tire quickly. No one who fights like that can avoid getting tired late in a fight. If Cain bangs inside with him and counters him, ties him up, does not create a lot of distance for JDS to open up and get space to unload his power, then JDS will tire. Cain should continuously pressure JDS and move forward into him, step around him to the side away from his power hand, go to the body, tie him up and frustrate him, counter him, it'll be easy to wear him out and set him up for the KO or a to be taken down. He needs to not let JDS have distance to throw those power shots. That's scary for a lot of guys because it goes against instinct but against poor punchers it is gold.

Exactly what happened!! At no point in that 1st round did Cain back up, he went forward and confused and hurt him early coming over and around the punches.

JDS has poor boxing and anyone countering and coming forward is going to start tagging and hurting and confusing him. That is exactly what Cain did. He came in, banged him, made him pay, tied him up, got him off balance, and exactly like I called it he tired him out right away.

Any decent boxing gym would be able to make this analysis because it is fundamental boxing. Cain did almost everything right with how he pressured and moved forward, he never went backward during the fight, he pivoted when he threw punches and moved his head coming in, he didn't just stand upright like JDS did. JDS was a target the whole fight and never defended his head and look at him, destroyed.

I knew if Cain won this fight it would be because he didn't make the same mistake JDS's previous opponents made, which was give JDS distance and respect.

voted up.
12/30/12 2:43 AM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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I think JDS's power and speed are good for a heavyweight when he has distance, but he's not excellent by boxing standards. He could be a much better fighter if he'd learn how to box from a decent trainer who could teach him the fundamentals and then put someone in with him who could simulate all the different things he might encounter on his feet.

It did not look like anyone has ever taught him how to fight on his heels or how to move when people are coming at him. He looked confused when Cain turned the tables and kept attacking him and coming at him from angles or over or under his punches. He is so used to backing up guys and creating space and having everyone respect him. His balance, head movement, footwork, efficiency of motion, where he kept his hands, how he turned to or away from Cain, all of those things were indicative of a guy who doesn't know how to fundamentally box. Just because he can throw punches in a gym at a bag or mitts doesn't equate to skill in the ring. Good boxing trainers prepare their fighters fundamentally, then build a game plan for the opponent with the basics as the foundation, but you can't do well without the basics, unless you're fighting people who are worse boxers than you are.

Part of the reason I think everyone thought he was so good on his feet is because relative to MMA heavies he is good, which is obvious since he's KO'd so many people. It doesn't mean he's good by boxing standards though, or that he has an advantage against any fighter with a good boxing trainer who can adapt to his style. Obviously Cain's camp recognized this and adequately prepared Cain to move around and slip punches and come forward and be aggressive and unpredictable. It exposed JDS exactly how I said it would.

This type of overhype of MMA fighters and their striking ability is the Vitor syndrome. Everyone thought Belfort was such an excellent boxer, but he wasn't, he was just fast and aggressive and liked to throw a lot of punches at guys who couldn't box for shit. He fought guys who are beginners at best in boxing. He later fought Chuck and looked silly as shit. Same with Tito fighting Chuck, Tito prepared hitting the bag, sparring, and practicing with mitts but he had no fundamentals, so all those hours in the gym didn't matter.

You see MMA guys who are labeled as great strikers and everyone talks about their boxing ability, like the Diaz brothers, but when you examine their technique from a boxing perspective you can see so many weaknesses it is not hard to build a game plan around those if you train with a decent boxing trainer.

Whoever trained Cain knew boxing and knew how to pick JDS apart. Cain must be a sponge because his hands looked amazing, and in that first round he essentially did everything a pro boxer would've done to JDS in a short amount of time. Cain moved his head coming in, followed up his shots with natural follow up punches, he covered up and avoided counters most of the time, he was balanced when he came in and threw tight efficient punches in close, especially to the body where he was really effective going low and then high. He slid his feet and closed distance coming in with a jab or just good footwork and before JDS knew how to defend himself Cain had already broken the distance and was right within striking range. That should never happen that easily to someone who is 6'4" with arms as long as JDS's, especially in the 1st round. As soon as he started getting punished by Cain and got confused he did exactly what I thought he would, which is he got tired and turned into a can. It took him 2 1/2 rounds to recover from that early beating because he took it on the chin and ears so many times.

Even after he started getting banged in close he still did not keep his hands up and protect his head when he was able to get away from the fence and get Cain out in the open. he didn't move his feet and step around Cain. Cain just moved forward on him and kept cutting off the ring and breaking the distance and owning his ass from every angle, he had JDS looking like an amateur can.

I think personally that if anyone in MMA wants to have a long career and avoid a lot of punishment and they want to have an advantage, then they really need to start training early with good boxing trainers who also train professionals who specialize in fundamental boxing. I'm not talking about finding celeb trainers like Freddie Roach, I'm talking about finding guys like Bernard Hopkins's trainer in Philly, or Kelly Pavlik's trainer in Youngstown, or Zab Judah's dad, and train with those guys in their hometown gyms. MMA fighters need boxing trainers who will give them an adequate amount of attention and who will break down their flaws and actually teach them how to fight and think like a boxer.

Joe Lauzon could've KO'd Miller in that 1st round and avoided all that punishment in that fight if he would've developed some sound boxing fundamentals before trying to strike with Miller. All he had to do was make an adjustment, step to the side with jab counters, then pop Miller with some combinations to set-up the right. Basic boxing shit. Miller came in prepared for Lauzon and looks to have had a decent boxing coach. It looked like they knew exactly what Lauzon would do when he was in close with Miller and Miller worked against Lauzon's defense. Miller made no attempt to drag Lauzon down and roll with him because it appeared his camp had adequately planned for Lauzon's vulnerability on the feet.

I know MMA fans on this site always get sore about boxing compared to MMA and bitch and moan about how much better MMA and wrestling is but when it comes to two men on their feet trading it is obviously better to know how to box and prepare for an opponent rather than come into a fight with poor fundamentals. It always equates to a severe beating.
12/30/12 3:52 AM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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The only thing I don't get about Brazilian strikers, especially JDS and the Nogueira brothers, is that some of these guys have trained with Luiz Carlos Dorea, who is one of the top boxing trainers in Brazil. He trained Popo.

I don't get how if they were trained by him that they'd be throwing punches the way that they do. I'm guessing they did really short camps with him to work on only certain things, or used him for short periods of time that were not long enough for his knowledge to sink in, or they just didn't follow through when he taught them the do's and don'ts.

Somehow though there was a breakdown in the fundamentals and JDS made no adjustments to the pressure. He needs to spend all of his time before his next fights in a boxing gym. His ground game is solid! He was able to get up and avoid many takedowns, he was never close to being subbed except for the armbar he escaped from, so he is really good there, he just needs a minimal amount of ground training to maintain his conditioning and agility and dexterity, but he needs to spend like 90% of his time breaking down his bad habits on the feet. He needs to learn to breathe when he's being pressured and he needs to learn to efficiently throw punches so he's not burning out all those muscles so quickly. He needs to learn how to condition his body defensively so he can move for 5 rounds without being hit no matter what is being thrown at him. He needs to learn how to move his feet when he's pressured at those angles, along with which direction to move. His striking needs to be changed so he's not exposing himself and so he is using natural motion to follow up or gain distance. He needs to learn to bend and lean down and develop speed controlling the ring. He was really slow moving around the ring and it was always easy to predict where his head would be or where his punches were coming from.

The video that started this thread about the K1 trainer being so awesome because he beat Overeem and all that, well, it didn't matter did it? If your boxing trainer isn't addressing your flaws and mistakes, then it will get addressed in the ring by a better prepared opponent. JDS's trainer should not have let JDS spar and condition and do anything in the gym with boxing gloves on that reinforced his bad habits. Everything he had him doing, whether mitts or bags or sparring, should have been to improve his flaws. It should have been obvious by his footwork, speed, lack of head movement, lack of defense, lack of earmuffs, and his previous fights that certain elements of his game needed direct attention and improvement.

This is why guys like Mayweather, Judah, Hopkins, Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, De La hoya, and Felix Sturm have amazing fundamentals and were always able to make adjustments under pressure and avoid severe beatings during their careers. Their only losses have been late in their careers to guys in their prime, and were not bad losses considering what their opponents did to other boxers at the time. Each time these top guys fought they got better at breaking down their flaws for the next fight. When De La Hoya fought Sturm he got beat in that fight even though he was awarded the decision, and it was because Sturm made adjustments and fundamentally never made any technical mistakes that would've put him at risk. De La Hoya got punished in that fight because he didn't prepare for Sturm, and he only survived with his fundamentals and with small defensive adjustments, but he didn't have the preparation offensively to deal with Sturm's defense and movement and how efficient his punches were. Sturm came in more prepared, more conditioned, had better fluency of movement, and was never at risk during any point of that fight.

That's the difference between good training, excellent training, and the training JDS had. De La Hoya had good enough training that he survived, adjusted, and was able to get through the fight without looking like Balboa. Sturm had excellent training because he he walked away clean after having given a decent beating to a legend of the sport, who up until that point had never been handled like that. That was De La Hoya's worst performance up until that point. If De La Hoya had poor fundamentals, was inadequately trained, and was facing a hungry and tough Sturm, he would've been near killed. JDS looked at one point in the 3rd like he was near death. I've never seen a 5 round beating like that on such a big man who had previously been so dominant. All of that started from JDS coming into the fight without the basic boxing tools in place to protect himself from an opponent with a better fundamental game plan. If JDS had better fundamentals he could've avoided the amount of punishment he got in such a short amount of time. He would have been able to adjust in the 2nd or 3rd, recover quicker, not to mention prevent a lot of those successive shots. He didn't know what to do once he started getting hit and it looked that way even at the end of the 5th when he was taking shots at the fence. He should've instead been circling in the center of the ring creating space and trying to KO Cain after adjusting some and surviving, but instead he tried to stand upright, do some lazy countering at the fence, and not move his head or feet but still maybe land a haymaker.

It should have never come to that, that was sad to see him get wrecked like that. I wasn't surprised to see that Cain's camp prepared Cain and that Cain was in shape, but I was surprised they used so much boxing preparation and had broken down JDS so well. They did such a good job that Cain never backed up, he got inside early, and by the end of the 1st round had JDS totally confused, exposed, and beat to a pulp. He was exhausted, lost, and completely underprepared and overmatched when round 1 was over. I knew that could happen against a good boxer when I made my earlier predictions, but I really wasn't sure that Cain would be able to do that because Cain is a wrestler and not much has been said about his boxing ability or what sorts of boxing trainers he uses. All the hype has been on JDS.

Cain's trainers did an excellent job, possibly the most thorough I've ever seen as far as making adjustments and really exposing an opponent. He looked good against Bigfoot but this fight really showcased his overall boxing ability and how dangerous he is on his feet. Cain went from being KO'd to completely dominating and dismantling a champion for 5 rounds in every facet of the fight. It is very very possible his knee was the reason he got tagged in their 1st fight.

If JDS wants that belt back he is going to need to first break all those bad habits, then he's going to need to improve on the basics and develop some serious conditioning and strategy so he can make adjustments. After that he'll be able to build a game plan for Cain around those fundamental skills. If he doesn't fix those holes then he'll get caught again early, be confused, be tired easily, be exposed for another 5 round beating, and he still wont know how to adjust mid-fight if Cain throws something unpredictable or unusual at him.

I don't see Cain losing anytime soon if he maintains his current level of boxing training, stays conditioned, and he uses the same trainers. If he wants to improve he needs to work on hand speed, foot speed, more combinations, and just general improvement on the basic stuff he showed in that fight. Any fighter can always improve how they throw anything. If he improves from where he's at now on his feet then I really don't see how anyone is going to beat this man. No one can out-wrestle him and he just destroyed perhaps the most effective heavyweight puncher ever in the UFC, easily, and on top of that he's maybe the best conditioned heavy we've ever seen besides Couture.
12/30/12 11:38 AM
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Brian Rule
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Great posts AttentionDeficitDizzle, VTFU. I feel like this fight turned out like Couture/Liddell 1, in which Chuck had no answer whatsoever for Randy's pressure (just as you called). We'll see how Junior adjusts next go at it. No fighter's perfect. I certainly love watching both of these guys fight, let alone improve
12/30/12 11:47 AM
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Wasa-B
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ADD, great observations but are you saying this is the first time someone has come forward on JDS? He normally controls the distance really well
12/30/12 11:48 AM
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Wasa-B
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Brian Rule - Great posts AttentionDeficitDizzle, VTFU. I feel like this fight turned out like Couture/Liddell 1, in which Chuck had no answer whatsoever for Randy's pressure (just as you called). We'll see how Junior adjusts next go at it. No fighter's perfect. I certainly love watching both of these guys fight, let alone improve

great example of another case of adjustment from a sound beating/domination the first time
12/30/12 11:50 AM
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Wasa-B
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"This type of overhype of MMA fighters and their striking ability is the Vitor syndrome. Everyone thought Belfort was such an excellent boxer, but he wasn't, he was just fast and aggressive and liked to throw a lot of punches at guys who couldn't box for shit. He fought guys who are beginners at best in boxing. He later fought Chuck and looked silly as shit. Same with Tito fighting Chuck, Tito prepared hitting the bag, sparring, and practicing with mitts but he had no fundamentals, so all those hours in the gym didn't matter.

You see MMA guys who are labeled as great strikers and everyone talks about their boxing ability, like the Diaz brothers, but when you examine their technique from a boxing perspective you can see so many weaknesses it is not hard to build a game plan around those if you train with a decent boxing trainer."

Are you perhaps looking at this too much from that boxing perspective though? Its def an important perspective but JDS' game has served him well over a long time without getting beat over many top guys.
12/30/12 11:53 AM
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Wasa-B
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To add: "great strikers" in MMA isnt always going to be a great sound orthodox boxer.

Not saying there isnt something to be said or to add with some good boxing fundamental but its not always absolutely paramount in MMA imo to have great orthodox boxing technique to be a good striker in MMA, there are too many other variables
12/30/12 5:28 PM
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Wasa-B
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Ok just watching now into r2 but I'm not convinced at all it was jds lack of boxing technique, not saying it wasn't a factor but let's not forget the overall mma context, cains pressure is both striking and tds and swarming on the ground. Junior even said post fight that he was really worried about stopping the td and insure that's we can attribute him having his hands low for.

Cains pressure wore jds already in the first round but junior also IMO didn't look to have the same movement and snap pretty early into the round but I'm sure that was also largely due to cains pressure.

Cain coming fwd as you mentioned was a key thing but I'm just seeing much more than boxing fundamentals at play here
12/30/12 5:35 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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that is some pretty good stuff AttentionDeficitDizzle. You should start up a blog and do your own striking breakdowns ala Jack Slack.
12/30/12 10:29 PM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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Wasa-B - Ok just watching now into r2 but I'm not convinced at all it was jds lack of boxing technique, not saying it wasn't a factor but let's not forget the overall mma context, cains pressure is both striking and tds and swarming on the ground. Junior even said post fight that he was really worried about stopping the td and insure that's we can attribute him having his hands low for.

Cains pressure wore jds already in the first round but junior also IMO didn't look to have the same movement and snap pretty early into the round but I'm sure that was also largely due to cains pressure.

Cain coming fwd as you mentioned was a key thing but I'm just seeing much more than boxing fundamentals at play here

I agree that it is more than boxing, but JDS prepared for the other stuff like the clinching and take downs. He was completely confused though with Cain's strikes, he was way off balance and stopped breathing. When they were separated and when JDS is normally supposed to be dangerous and highly skilled is where Cain did most of the damage. My opinion is what really hurt JDS was his poor fundamentals and Cain's improvement and planning. JDS did pretty well on the ground and in the clinch and got back up and avoided being subbed and it was because of that reason he got a 2nd wind late in the fight and survived. The one thing he wasn't prepared for was that Cain would expose his striking flaws and defensive boxing flaws, and that some of his other boxing flaws would have a cumulative effect on his body really early in the fight. He was in trouble and dead tired way too soon.

Normally in MMA it is very hard for a camp to create any good planning against a guy with good dangerous hands and decent boxing fundamentals when they try to plan offensively because MMA camps really only have one strategy, which is to avoid the strikes and go for take downs and try to grind out a win or win by sub on the ground. I think JDS's camp assumed Cain would try to use take downs and would be avoiding striking and boxing at all costs because of the previous KO, so they were overconfident in JDS's boxing. That, along with the fact that JDS isn't really a technically sound boxer, is what hurt them because they didn't prepare him for a scenario where his boxing could get him into trouble.

Someone in Cain's camp did the opposite of what you traditionally see in MMA. Instead of planning around wrestling and bringing the fight to the ground they decided to not avoid JDS's striking ability. Someone saw a lot of holes in JDS's game and recognized Cain's ability to strike is definitely good enough to warrant training him on his feet to get around JDS's power, get inside, mix it up, counter, and make JDS pay early in the fight for his bad habits. That is not normal.

I think most MMA trainers don't have the confidence and boxing knowledge to take their fighters and train them well enough on their feet so that they can compete with anyone's hands, regardless of their wrestling background. You see that a lot with Greg Jackson's fighters. You see the blanket strategy because the trainers don't have the ability to teach their wrestlers how to box and win a fight with both hands and ground game. It isn't that a guy like Fitch can't learn to KO people, it is more either that he doesn't want to and would rather lay on people, or it simply is that his trainers don't know how to train and motivate him properly to turn him into a solid boxer. It doesn't take that long to turn an athletic wrestler into someone with strong boxing skills, you just have to eliminate their bad habits and keep them improving. MMA trainers do the opposite though, they bring in someone to help teach poor basic punching strategy, or they teach them the wrong shit from the beginning and allow their fighters to use horrible technique.

You see that with a lot of the really exciting Black fighters who are athletic and string together KO wins with their hands. They start off with a lot of hype and then completely dismantle and start losing once their flaws are exposed on the feet. Anthony Johnson, Guillard, Kimbo, Houston Alexander, Paul Daley and others. They get caught and dropped when guys come at them and then all of a sudden they're wobbling around dancing and hurt and can't recover in there. They freeze up, get tired, look awkward, and end up making the same mistakes on their feet. This is the fault of their trainers, who should be forcing them to improve on their feet, but also adapt to being hit and being pressured.

You can't just use traditional boxing in MMA, and I do understand that, but what I'm saying is that when MMA fighters do choose to engage on their feet and even hire boxing trainers, that they need to do it right and learn the proper stuff so they're adequately prepared and trained and are developing additional skills. You should see their striking evolve and sharpen up and you should see their bad habits fade away over time as they become more efficient and fluid. They should become increasingly difficult for opposing camps to prepare for and you should never see what happened to JDS where a fighter gets beaten up that badly over 5 rounds and no adjustments are made to prevent the rape.

Normally in boxing you do not see that at the top levels. Usually fighters will have maybe just a couple flaws that are somewhat obvious that can be taken advantage of, but not a whole host of them. You are not supposed to be seeing mismatches that drastic in skills and performance at the top levels. The only time that occurs is because the trainers are fucking up somewhere and not addressing something their fighter is taking into the fight that is putting them at risk. If the flaw is a really bad one, like poor head movement, or a weak jab, then you will sometimes see a lot of damage result from that one major flaw, but when you are showing several of them at once and face someone tough, then you're gonna look like hell at the end of it.

Those fights between Stout and Taylor/Fisher are good examples. Just a few defensive adjustments and either side could've walked away from those fights without all that damage and without having to have fought to decisions.
12/30/12 10:39 PM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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Brian Rule - Great posts AttentionDeficitDizzle, VTFU. I feel like this fight turned out like Couture/Liddell 1, in which Chuck had no answer whatsoever for Randy's pressure (just as you called). We'll see how Junior adjusts next go at it. No fighter's perfect. I certainly love watching both of these guys fight, let alone improve

It is hard to say between Cain and JDS who has more natural talent with their hands on the feet. Cain is obviously like a sponge and learned some good technique rather quickly from primarily just being a wrestler early on. JDS has a lot of good natural tools but can't use them when he's leaving himself open to be hit and he's not able to adjust and create space.

If JDS went back to the basics and came back improved and filled those holes, then a 3rd fight between him and Cain would probably go down as the best pure matchup at heavyweight in MMA history because of their size and skill level at not only striking but grappling, where both are excellent.

Both also have strong chins, are young, and both are talented enough to take out anyone else in the division who's currently ranked. You would have two guys at the top for a long time if JDS can adjust and improve them holes. It would be like Ali and Frazier going back and forth and could be great for MMA because the mainstream likes the heavies.
12/31/12 3:49 AM
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Wasa-B
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Agree with some stuff. Disagree with others.

Also by the way you mention "laying on people," is it safe to presume you are overlooking the fact that its grappling and not striking that is the basis of MMA?

The object in MMA is to win by your MMA strengths, not to show how technically sound your boxing is.

Paul Daley mixed in with those other guys?

And whats with shitting on a guy like Feitosa cause he's not a boxer?

"I agree that it is more than boxing, but JDS prepared for the other stuff like the clinching and take downs. He was completely confused though with Cain's strikes, he was way off balance and stopped breathing."

- Again, it wasnt just Cain's strikes and JDS's poor boxing fundamentals. The relentless td ability and threat of the td is huge factor to Cain's standup like it is to GSP and vice versa.

Again, i think you do have some good observations. Perhaps the lack of breathing is why JDS gassed so fast but this is the first time in 10 UFC fights and against consistent top opposition that's happened.

I do agree that JDS can make some adjustments to his game like Chuck did to Randy to come back to win again. But Cain is still improving too.

"The one thing he wasn't prepared for was that Cain would expose his striking flaws and defensive boxing flaws, and that some of his other boxing flaws would have a cumulative effect on his body really early in the fight. He was in trouble and dead tired way too soon."

"I think JDS's camp assumed Cain would try to use take downs and would be avoiding striking and boxing at all costs because of the previous KO, so they were overconfident in JDS's boxing"

- Those 2 scenarios are very possible, agreed.
12/31/12 4:12 AM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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<blockquote>Wasa-B - Agree with some stuff. Disagree with others. <br /><br />Also by the way you mention "laying on people," is it safe to presume you are overlooking the fact that its grappling and not striking that is the basis of MMA? <br /><br />The object in MMA is to win by your MMA strengths, not to show how technically sound your boxing is. <br /><br />Paul Daley mixed in with those other guys? <br /><br />And whats with shitting on a guy like Feitosa cause he's not a boxer?<br /><br />"I agree that it is more than boxing, but JDS prepared for the other stuff like the clinching and take downs. He was completely confused though with Cain's strikes, he was way off balance and stopped breathing."<br /><br />- Again, it wasnt just Cain's strikes and JDS's poor boxing fundamentals. The relentless td ability and threat of the td is huge factor to Cain's standup like it is to GSP and vice versa. <br /><br />Again, i think you do have some good observations. Perhaps the lack of breathing is why JDS gassed so fast but this is the first time in 10 UFC fights and against consistent top opposition that's happened. <br /><br />I do agree that JDS can make some adjustments to his game like Chuck did to Randy to come back to win again. But Cain is still improving too. <br /><br />"The one thing he wasn't prepared for was that Cain would expose his striking flaws and defensive boxing flaws, and that some of his other boxing flaws would have a cumulative effect on his body really early in the fight. He was in trouble and dead tired way too soon."<br /><br />"I think JDS's camp assumed Cain would try to use take downs and would be avoiding striking and boxing at all costs because of the previous KO, so they were overconfident in JDS's boxing"<br /><br />- Those 2 scenarios are very possible, agreed.</blockquote><br />

I'll see what I can dig up this week from Cain's camp. I don't know anyone over there but I'd be curious to talk with whoever analyzed JDS's boxing.

Feitosa shouldn't have let JDS do any training that reinforced his bad habits and left his head exposed. JDS looked like he was doing an OK job early of moving his feet and trying to counter Cain coming in but the shots were inaccurate, relatively slow and off balance, and he never threw more than one counter backing up at a time. He stumbled and didn't float like fluid. Cain just kept getting around him and inside and just based on those obvious flaws you can safely assume there were major inadequacies in Junior's training and how his trainer approached it. That video showed so many holes in the short time I viewed it that coincided with things I had noticed in his other fights with his footwork and how his opponents responded to his power. He never got into any danger where his poor head movement and loose style ended up costing him damage. I know he's had some impressive wins but I would argue he's not fought anyone recently with sound boxing technique and coaching. His opponents and their styles are part of the reason he was so confident in his technique and why his habits are so deeply ingrained in his style. Lots of people think because they're doing well that they don't need to fix anything, then they run into someone doing something they haven't seen before. That's something you can adapt to if you're seasoned and sound, but otherwise you can get hurt. His coaches may have also had too much confidence in his stand-up to really push him to change anything.

I would also argue that as far as MMA goes, it is not boxing, but the fighters always end up having to at some point in their careers exchange on their feet. I'd rather see fighters learn to box well early than see fights turn into really ugly slug fests where guys are beating hell from each other because they are just throwing bombs. Those are exciting for fans who want blood, but they can be frustrating when the two guys are just flingin and bleedin. I also think that fighters shouldn't define themselves around a central style, that they should continually evolve and develop diversity in their skills and become as adept as possible at everything. You used GSP as an example. There are times he really frustrates me when he leg humps. I get the concept of winning on points and avoiding punishment and applying pressure, but I think the sport is not about just winning but it is how you win.


I'll follow up on this thread later this week. Thanks for going back and forth with me wasabi!
12/31/12 4:23 AM
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Reemz
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I must say im impressed AttentionDeficitDizzle, i dont post often, but i thought id say thanks for taking the time to offer your insight.

I dont recall anyone on here being able to dissect boxing intricacies as competently or express them in such easy to understand language.

You must have been around the boxing game for a considerable amount of time.





12/31/12 5:18 AM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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Reemz - I must say im impressed AttentionDeficitDizzle, i dont post often, but i thought id say thanks for taking the time to offer your insight.

I dont recall anyone on here being able to dissect boxing intricacies as competently or express them in such easy to understand language.

You must have been around the boxing game for a considerable amount of time.






Thanks man. I have watched boxing since I was a kid, and I've seen every UFC event since the first one, so I've always analyzed the sport early on just looking at the striking and where that has factored in over the evolution of the sport.

My brother grew up doing the same thing and for years we ordered DVD's of old fights on eBay and we've made a habit of watching a lot of obscure VHS fights as well. We literally watched almost every Friday Night Fights event since the 90's and went over the technical aspects of upcoming fighters.

My brother started training and became an amateur because we were always in the gym training anyway for fun and he still trains like 4 days a week.

But if you spend years listening to guys like Teddy Atlas and Emmanuel Steward and old fighters dissect fights, you sort of learn how they see things. We also bounced around at some gyms around the country and talked to fighters and trainers and at this point we can both watch someone for a little while and immediately know within a few minutes where they're at and how they've been trained and what would take them out.

My brother and I called that Pacman loss recently, but we've always said the same thing about his style...and there are some posts on the thread about boxing that Bonds created that has been floating around for a while on the UG that confirms my prediction. In that I discussed Floyd's overhand right and how easy it would be to take Pacman out early with that shot, but also what Pacman needs to do to beat Floyd. Unfortunately of course Marquez loaded up that right and timed it and got him but we knew it was a matter of time. Pacman's people should NEVER have taken that last Marquez fight, that was such a bad bad decision.

I know what JDS needs to do to get that title back, and I know what Reem needs to do to beat Cain, but I can tell Cain has got someone over there with a good eye who's got him preparing properly on his feet. You wont see too many guys who can maintain that kind of output and mix in all those techniques over 5 rounds, he's gonna be tough to beat, but he is definitely beatable.

The best trainers in boxing can always see the future, even when fighters cant see it themselves. JDS's trainers should've seen how vulnerable he was and kept pushing him to shore up those holes, regardless of their faith in his hands or his previous fights. JDS was almost a victim of his fortune because of his wins and that first fight against Cain, which sort of blinded everyone around him and caused them to overlook any potential mistakes in the 2nd fight. That always happens when fighters reach a certain level.

But, another reality is the incompetence of their prior training or knowledge becomes more obvious the higher they rise and the more challenges they face. Some guys are so good that their level of incompetence is so low they never really endure any beatings or threats. Mayweather is a good example, the dude is just beyond great. Everyone else though usually gets to a critical level and then their flaws or mistakes catch up to them and they have peaked. The best guys come back better every time they fight, win or lose. Tyson was like that until he stopped training and lost focus and developed a higher level of incompetence the more distracting his personal life became until he got his ass whooped by Buster, who had come ready as a heart attack. Buster had just lost his dad and had put all of that suffering and energy into training and focusing on Tyson's weaknesses, and despite Tyson's obvious talent and potential and skill, he got lost in the hype and wasn't improving. He had peaked and then declined and ran into the wrong guy who had a near equal amount of sweet science knowledge and training, but who was better prepared and had addressed Tyson's weaknesses before even he could. I know Teddy and Cus saw it coming, but Tyson had been on a train steered by fame and King and they couldn't compete with that kind of pressure.

I really don't see the fame and recognition and money being a factor with Cain, the dude is always improving no matter what. I don't think he's gonna lose for a while unless Jones steps up and puts on some weight, or Anderson does, but even then I don't see them winning. He'd eventually be too much for them. He's a lot bigger, stronger, and faster than he looks on TV too, it is kind of deceiving.

Just to make another prediction, no way in hell GSP takes any sort of fight against Anderson. If he does that it'll be suicide.
12/31/12 5:28 AM
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AttentionDeficitDizzle
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GARRYD - I have read some BS on this forum before but reading Cain did everything to JDS that a pro boxer would do is just a about the most stupid thing i have read,makes it sound like Cain stood toe to toe with him lol
Cain utilised his wrestling to neutralise any boxing from JDS ,as soon as Cain landed a couple of punches he was then going for a take down.
It was the perfect game plan to beat JDSs style of long range boxing ,Cain did not let him have that space where JDS gets his punches off and where JDS feels most comfortable .

OK, what did Cain not do?

You make it sound like he was just rushing in like Lesnar and landing a "couple of punches".

It was nowhere near that simple. He made so many adjustments and did so many small things with his movement that all paid off. I don't think you really understand what he was doing and your brain just saw that he got inside and landed punches, which is A to B.

That's called ignorance because you're ignoring the details. You make it sound like his camp just told him, "go forward homes, grab, attack homie, throw a couple punches bro". You trying to refer to my post as stupid when you can't even add any details or discuss how Cain got inside is stupid.

Pot stirring idiots like yourself are why people make dumb decisions for other people when they have power. It is because you don't know how to critically examine something because a dumb brain prefers A + B = C. You keep doing basic math and leave the rest of the thinking up to people who know how to do it.

Oh, and your last paragraph was just you repeating what I said in my prediction post about how Cain would win, after I explained in more detail in that how Cain would need to get inside. You just ripped my shit off too you simpleton.
12/31/12 1:51 PM
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Wasa-B
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AttentionDeficitDizzle - <blockquote>Wasa-B - Agree with some stuff. Disagree with others. <br /><br />Also by the way you mention "laying on people," is it safe to presume you are overlooking the fact that its grappling and not striking that is the basis of MMA? <br /><br />The object in MMA is to win by your MMA strengths, not to show how technically sound your boxing is. <br /><br />Paul Daley mixed in with those other guys? <br /><br />And whats with shitting on a guy like Feitosa cause he's not a boxer?<br /><br />"I agree that it is more than boxing, but JDS prepared for the other stuff like the clinching and take downs. He was completely confused though with Cain's strikes, he was way off balance and stopped breathing."<br /><br />- Again, it wasnt just Cain's strikes and JDS's poor boxing fundamentals. The relentless td ability and threat of the td is huge factor to Cain's standup like it is to GSP and vice versa. <br /><br />Again, i think you do have some good observations. Perhaps the lack of breathing is why JDS gassed so fast but this is the first time in 10 UFC fights and against consistent top opposition that's happened. <br /><br />I do agree that JDS can make some adjustments to his game like Chuck did to Randy to come back to win again. But Cain is still improving too. <br /><br />"The one thing he wasn't prepared for was that Cain would expose his striking flaws and defensive boxing flaws, and that some of his other boxing flaws would have a cumulative effect on his body really early in the fight. He was in trouble and dead tired way too soon."<br /><br />"I think JDS's camp assumed Cain would try to use take downs and would be avoiding striking and boxing at all costs because of the previous KO, so they were overconfident in JDS's boxing"<br /><br />- Those 2 scenarios are very possible, agreed.</blockquote><br />

I'll see what I can dig up this week from Cain's camp. I don't know anyone over there but I'd be curious to talk with whoever analyzed JDS's boxing.

Feitosa shouldn't have let JDS do any training that reinforced his bad habits and left his head exposed. JDS looked like he was doing an OK job early of moving his feet and trying to counter Cain coming in but the shots were inaccurate, relatively slow and off balance, and he never threw more than one counter backing up at a time. He stumbled and didn't float like fluid. Cain just kept getting around him and inside and just based on those obvious flaws you can safely assume there were major inadequacies in Junior's training and how his trainer approached it. That video showed so many holes in the short time I viewed it that coincided with things I had noticed in his other fights with his footwork and how his opponents responded to his power. He never got into any danger where his poor head movement and loose style ended up costing him damage. I know he's had some impressive wins but I would argue he's not fought anyone recently with sound boxing technique and coaching. His opponents and their styles are part of the reason he was so confident in his technique and why his habits are so deeply ingrained in his style. Lots of people think because they're doing well that they don't need to fix anything, then they run into someone doing something they haven't seen before. That's something you can adapt to if you're seasoned and sound, but otherwise you can get hurt. His coaches may have also had too much confidence in his stand-up to really push him to change anything.

I would also argue that as far as MMA goes, it is not boxing, but the fighters always end up having to at some point in their careers exchange on their feet. I'd rather see fighters learn to box well early than see fights turn into really ugly slug fests where guys are beating hell from each other because they are just throwing bombs. Those are exciting for fans who want blood, but they can be frustrating when the two guys are just flingin and bleedin. I also think that fighters shouldn't define themselves around a central style, that they should continually evolve and develop diversity in their skills and become as adept as possible at everything. You used GSP as an example. There are times he really frustrates me when he leg humps. I get the concept of winning on points and avoiding punishment and applying pressure, but I think the sport is not about just winning but it is how you win.


I'll follow up on this thread later this week. Thanks for going back and forth with me wasabi!

 Javier Mendez and AKA is great and experienced camp but we havnt seen that many turn around so dramatically in a rematch for a while. Edgar did come back to finish Gray but drew in the first figt. Chuck completely turned it around against Randy. Funny enugh, i think Randy' performance against Chuck in the first fight can be compared stylistically to this fight where the grappler pushed the pace against the striker and kept him guessing with a mix of striking with the constant threat of tds and steady pressure.

I believe Mendez's background though is kickboxing and not boxing.

Anyhow, though i cant completely agree with everything you got out there, you, like Jack Slack, the other knowledable and techncal writer on striking in MMA, can give the board some great insight in striking and boxing. There is also a Duke Roufus thread here about striking in the MMA context with all the various styles of striking discussed and also how the td etc effect the stances and distances, also a great read.

On GSP "leg humping" though, you should check out the Gracie Breakdowns on youtube by Ralek and Ryron (?), they give the same techncal insight as you do in striking but from the BJJ perspective and they have one on GSP/Condit and all the thigs most are missing on the ground, the finer little points. You have to understand when GSP is "leg humping" its all in the effort to pass and control, he, like say Okami vs Belcher just isnt very good lately at securing the subs opportunities and/or reigning down with better GNP on the ground.  But there's a world to learn about position and stuff on the ground.

 

Good stuff anyhow man, glad to debate, discuss with some non tapout tards on here!

 

12/31/12 7:03 PM
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Wasa-B
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Just rewatched again and imo its pretty simple actually:

It is similar to Randy/Chuck I were Cain just smothers JDS with both striking and tds (clinches and shoots). It was similar to Okami/Belcher too, basically closing the gap 101: punch/punch/clinch and/or shoot.

There may be some technical short comings in JDS defense but it was never a boxing match imo it was, again imho, closing the gap 101. Many of Cain's shoots were actually off JDS' counter attempts: Cain punches, JDS counters, Cain shoots and Cain never let up.
1/1/13 9:34 AM
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ausgepicht
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GARRYD - 
AttentionDeficitDizzle - 
GARRYD - I have read some BS on this forum before but reading Cain did everything to JDS that a pro boxer would do is just a about the most stupid thing i have read,makes it sound like Cain stood toe to toe with him lol
Cain utilised his wrestling to neutralise any boxing from JDS ,as soon as Cain landed a couple of punches he was then going for a take down.
It was the perfect game plan to beat JDSs style of long range boxing ,Cain did not let him have that space where JDS gets his punches off and where JDS feels most comfortable .

OK, what did Cain not do?

You make it sound like he was just rushing in like Lesnar and landing a "couple of punches".

It was nowhere near that simple. He made so many adjustments and did so many small things with his movement that all paid off. I don't think you really understand what he was doing and your brain just saw that he got inside and landed punches, which is A to B.

That's called ignorance because you're ignoring the details. You make it sound like his camp just told him, "go forward homes, grab, attack homie, throw a couple punches bro". You trying to refer to my post as stupid when you can't even add any details or discuss how Cain got inside is stupid.

Pot stirring idiots like yourself are why people make dumb decisions for other people when they have power. It is because you don't know how to critically examine something because a dumb brain prefers A + B = C. You keep doing basic math and leave the rest of the thinking up to people who know how to do it.

Oh, and your last paragraph was just you repeating what I said in my prediction post about how Cain would win, after I explained in more detail in that how Cain would need to get inside. You just ripped my shit off too you simpleton.

Youve even confused yourself ,you poor bred backward retard ,wonder what diseased c0ck idiots like you drip off the end of !

You should actually watch the fights you comment on.

ADD's post was spot on. Your reply to him certainly doesn't help you not look like a moran. As a matter of fact, it's like a moran billboard. Way to go.

1/2/13 3:46 PM
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Wasa-B
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ADD, what would you think JDS has to do for the rubber match? Something similar to the adustments Chuck made for Randy is my thinking.

Also, how would you see Cain vs the Reem?

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