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UnderGround Forums >> Jones tells Cerrone: "You don't make $1M to fight"


1/3/13 2:16 PM
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Lazer MMA
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LilBrockonmychest - 
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JoeHurley -

Why are people saying "this is what the sport has become"?  This used to go on all the time in Pride.  They'd offer you a fight on less than 2 weeks notice.  Guys turned down fight offers like that all the time, but you didn't have fans whining and slamming them for "not testing themselves" "being concerned about their record" or "wanting to be the best fighter".

 

The sport hasn't changed, the entitled attitude of the fans has.

Bam! Right on the money you sassy bastard. Phone Post


Yea they had to fold PRIDe cards because a guy like Fedor would tuck a fight VS Busta (who had not trained when Fedor had) when he knew the card would be folded. That shit happened all the time!

No wait......

Wile there would be no need to fold a card in PRIDe, ready to fight Fedor would not tuck Busta in the first place. JOKE

I like how you guys keep saying that Chael had not been training just because Dana told you to think that. Ya, it's just a huge coincidence that Chael started attacking Jones on Twitter 3-4 weeks out, which we find out later is about the exact same time Hendo got hurt. Dana couldn't keep his lies straight. First he says Chael was filming a TV show with Rashad. Funny I've yet to see a TV show with Chael and Rashad. Next Dana says Chael was sitting bedside with his girlfriends dying father and that he had to "track him down" to offer the fight. It's 2012. Tracking him down consists of calling his cell phone/texting.


Ok great lets say it's a falsehood. WTF not, we know Hendo was 100 percent fighting in his mind until he tested the knee and the docs were wrong and he couldn't go, but lets give it a go! F it!

So an in shape JBJ who some people already look at as the LHW GOAT fights a guy that NEVER WON A BIG FIGHT at LHW ever. "Even with a 20:1 T/E and IF he gets a damn TD he will tire and at some point when they hit their feet it will be a wrap." 151 was going to be the easiest fight he EVER had or ever will.

This fight with Sonnen in April "is THE BIGGEST MISMATCH FOR A BELT IN MMA HISTORY."

That why the odds now are about double what I laid (-600 to start)

Now what?

Look the young man was poorly advised. It is what it is, to take that tuck further is just suicide period.
1/3/13 2:51 PM
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jimbonice
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No insult to Cerrone, but he and Jones are two different classes of fighters. Jones is a dominant champion, while Cerrone is a capable solid fighter, certainly in the mix. He has to fight to build his brand; Jones has already done it, and quickly.

When Jones sunk in that standing guillotine on Machida, it cemented his standing as a champ. Phone Post
1/3/13 4:19 PM
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Phisher
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JeffersonDArcyChoke -  Jon's reasoning by saying "you don't make a million to fight" is actually saying it's MORE important the more you earn.

Meaning, every move I make is way bigger than yours when you are the champ and making that kind of money.

If Cerrone loses, he loses not much but a fight.

If Jones loses, he loses it all.

THAT is what Jones was saying and everyone is reading into it otherwise.

I dislike Jones but he wasn't being a dick here. Phone Post

Watch it partner. This is extreme Jones nuthuggery. A true warrior cares not for material things or the state of his "career." The fact is that the coward Jones violated the esteemed budo code of the noble art of pink mohawks and tribal tattoos. Ths ignominy will never be lived down.

1/3/13 4:19 PM
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Death Beast
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Death Beast - I just wish Jones would say what, IMO, is the real reason for turning down the fight with Sonnen.
From the moment Sonnen announced a move up to LHW, Jones knew that they'd meet eventually since it looked like they were going to give Sonnen a fast track to a title shot. That's BY FAR the biggest money fight for Jones at this point. Why should he throw away that much money by taking the fight on short notice with no marketing behind it? There's literally no other big money fight for him at LHW, not Hendo, not Gus, not anyone he's already beaten.


Even Dana said on the call the real reason. The young man was poorly advised. Dana called Jackson "a sport killer" on the call.


So his real reason was he was poorly advised? Because his other 'real' reason was that Sonnen didn't deserve a shot at him because JBJ thought he was racist and nowhere near #1 contender status but that didn't stop him from fighting Belfort or now fighting Sonnen anyway. The only difference is now he'll make a SHITLOAD of money with the hype behind it instead of on 8 days notice.
I'm sure if another takedown type guy wanted that fight instead of Belfort he would have been fine with it. He just didn't want to blow the one big money 205 fight available on short notice. Again just my opinion but I think it makes more sense than "He got bad advice from Greg Jackson and didn't want to fight a middleweight on short notice".
Obviously he couldn't just come out and say he'd rather fight Chael with proper hype or he'd sound greedy as shit.
1/3/13 4:28 PM
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D241
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There's not a singler person who has yet to answer this question, and I'll ask it again.

 

'WHAT, did Jon Jones GAIN by NOT accepting the fight against Chael at 151?

 

He lost respect from fans and fighters, and his employers.

He lost a clear advantage when it comes to preparation. He could've fought Chael when Chael wasn't preparing for a lhw title fight. Now, he's still fighting Chael, except Chael has a full training camp to prepare for Jon.

As far as money goes, had he fought Chael at 151, it's debatable if he would make the same money as when he fights Chael after Tuf is over. But lets say Jones fighting Chael later instead of 151 on short notice gives 200-300k extra ppv buys(that's being extremely generous), Jones STILL could've fought for less money at 151, AND STILL take a fight the same time he's scheduled to fight Chael, and for just as much if not more money.

 

He lost respect from fans, friends, employers.

He lost a preparation advantage.

He lost a money opportunity by fighting the same guy once instead of fighting him at 151, then fighting the next guy.

 

WHAT-DID-HE-GAIN?

 

 

1/3/13 4:36 PM
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Death Beast
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D241 - 

There's not a singler person who has yet to answer this question, and I'll ask it again.

 

'WHAT, did Jon Jones GAIN by NOT accepting the fight against Chael at 151?

 

He lost respect from fans and fighters, and his employers.

He lost a clear advantage when it comes to preparation. He could've fought Chael when Chael wasn't preparing for a lhw title fight. Now, he's still fighting Chael, except Chael has a full training camp to prepare for Jon.

As far as money goes, had he fought Chael at 151, it's debatable if he would make the same money as when he fights Chael after Tuf is over. But lets say Jones fighting Chael later instead of 151 on short notice gives 200-300k extra ppv buys(that's being extremely generous), Jones STILL could've fought for less money at 151, AND STILL take a fight the same time he's scheduled to fight Chael, and for just as much if not more money.

 

He lost respect from fans, friends, employers.

He lost a preparation advantage.

He lost a money opportunity by fighting the same guy once instead of fighting him at 151, then fighting the next guy.

 

WHAT-DID-HE-GAIN?

 

 


I will gladly answer your question. Jones gets a PPV cut. The PPV with Sonnen on 8 days notice wouldn't have made as much money as he will by waiting til after TUF and all that hype/trash talk. So HE GAINS MORE MONEY.

Even if he could have just fought someone else instead now after fighting Chael then, there is no other fight that will make him as much money as a fight with Chael that is properly promoted.

So let's break this down so you don't say I make no sense, using hypotheticals of course.

He would have sold 600k vs. Chael on 8 days notice. Then he would have sold 600k vs. Hendo or whoever in February.

OR

Sold 500k vs. Vitor, then sold 1m vs. Chael in February.

Is that making more sense to you?
1/3/13 4:40 PM
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Death Beast
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D241 - 

There's not a singler person who has yet to answer this question, and I'll ask it again.

 

'WHAT, did Jon Jones GAIN by NOT accepting the fight against Chael at 151?

 

He lost respect from fans and fighters, and his employers.

He lost a clear advantage when it comes to preparation. He could've fought Chael when Chael wasn't preparing for a lhw title fight. Now, he's still fighting Chael, except Chael has a full training camp to prepare for Jon.

As far as money goes, had he fought Chael at 151, it's debatable if he would make the same money as when he fights Chael after Tuf is over. But lets say Jones fighting Chael later instead of 151 on short notice gives 200-300k extra ppv buys(that's being extremely generous), Jones STILL could've fought for less money at 151, AND STILL take a fight the same time he's scheduled to fight Chael, and for just as much if not more money.

 

He lost respect from fans, friends, employers.

He lost a preparation advantage.

He lost a money opportunity by fighting the same guy once instead of fighting him at 151, then fighting the next guy.

 

WHAT-DID-HE-GAIN?

 

 


And let's be serious....you truly believe that he won't make a shitload more sales vs. Chael with that kind of promotion compared to 8 days?
That card was horrible with only Jones vs. Hendo being the saving grace. This fact was proved when they scrapped the whole thing when the main event fell apart.
There was no upside to him losing his biggest money fight on a PPV that wasn't going to do well. Hell he probably made more for fighting Vitor on the card with Bisping/Stann and the Flyweight title match than he would have vs. Hendo.
1/3/13 4:49 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Death Beast - I just wish Jones would say what, IMO, is the real reason for turning down the fight with Sonnen.
From the moment Sonnen announced a move up to LHW, Jones knew that they'd meet eventually since it looked like they were going to give Sonnen a fast track to a title shot. That's BY FAR the biggest money fight for Jones at this point. Why should he throw away that much money by taking the fight on short notice with no marketing behind it? There's literally no other big money fight for him at LHW, not Hendo, not Gus, not anyone he's already beaten.


Even Dana said on the call the real reason. The young man was poorly advised. Dana called Jackson "a sport killer" on the call.


So his real reason was he was poorly advised? Because his other 'real' reason was that Sonnen didn't deserve a shot at him because JBJ thought he was racist and nowhere near #1 contender status but that didn't stop him from fighting Belfort or now fighting Sonnen anyway. The only difference is now he'll make a SHITLOAD of money with the hype behind it instead of on 8 days notice.
I'm sure if another takedown type guy wanted that fight instead of Belfort he would have been fine with it. He just didn't want to blow the one big money 205 fight available on short notice. Again just my opinion but I think it makes more sense than "He got bad advice from Greg Jackson and didn't want to fight a middleweight on short notice".
Obviously he couldn't just come out and say he'd rather fight Chael with proper hype or he'd sound greedy as shit.


Do you realize how stupid that is. He did not know he'd ever have to fight Sonnen at the time he refused to fight him at 151.

You're pulling crap out your ass. Simple as that.

He wanted more $$ by fighting him latter. LMFAO

He said a week earlier on radio show he'd fight Sonnen by the way.

Wow the UG LOL
1/3/13 4:57 PM
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Death Beast
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Lazer MMA - 
Death Beast - 
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Death Beast - I just wish Jones would say what, IMO, is the real reason for turning down the fight with Sonnen.
From the moment Sonnen announced a move up to LHW, Jones knew that they'd meet eventually since it looked like they were going to give Sonnen a fast track to a title shot. That's BY FAR the biggest money fight for Jones at this point. Why should he throw away that much money by taking the fight on short notice with no marketing behind it? There's literally no other big money fight for him at LHW, not Hendo, not Gus, not anyone he's already beaten.


Even Dana said on the call the real reason. The young man was poorly advised. Dana called Jackson "a sport killer" on the call.


So his real reason was he was poorly advised? Because his other 'real' reason was that Sonnen didn't deserve a shot at him because JBJ thought he was racist and nowhere near #1 contender status but that didn't stop him from fighting Belfort or now fighting Sonnen anyway. The only difference is now he'll make a SHITLOAD of money with the hype behind it instead of on 8 days notice.
I'm sure if another takedown type guy wanted that fight instead of Belfort he would have been fine with it. He just didn't want to blow the one big money 205 fight available on short notice. Again just my opinion but I think it makes more sense than "He got bad advice from Greg Jackson and didn't want to fight a middleweight on short notice".
Obviously he couldn't just come out and say he'd rather fight Chael with proper hype or he'd sound greedy as shit.


Do you realize how stupid that is. He did not know he'd ever have to fight Sonnen at the time he refused to fight him at 151.

You're pulling crap out your ass. Simple as that.

He wanted more $$ by fighting him latter. LMFAO

He said a week earlier on radio show he'd fight Sonnen by the way.

Wow the UG LOL

I'm pulling it out of my ass that he knew he could just fight sonnen at a later date huh? My ass must be full of awesome then because that's exactly what he's doing dipshit.

Yeah he'd said he'd fight him if he earned his shot a week earlier. Then one of the first excuses out of his mouth was he didn't respect Sonnen and he was a racist so he didn't want to give him a shot undeservedly. But he's sure as shit doing that now isn't he? WTF changed? Other than now they'll have proper hype and he'll get paid alot more with the extra PPV buys.

Oh but he didn't say that so that can't possibly be the reason, got it....

Yeah you're right, the UG is full of fucktards
1/3/13 5:01 PM
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JoeHurley - 

Why are people saying "this is what the sport has become"?  This used to go on all the time in Pride.  They'd offer you a fight on less than 2 weeks notice.  Guys turned down fight offers like that all the time, but you didn't have fans whining and slamming them for "not testing themselves" "being concerned about their record" or "wanting to be the best fighter".

 

The sport hasn't changed, the entitled attitude of the fans has.


Joe, long time fan of yours, you are one of the pioneers of this sport. I have to say in this case I respectfully disagree and I will tell you why.

It is not just Bones not wanting to fight Chael, to me it is more his attitude about fight Silva. Now I know Silva has said he didn't want to do it either BUT that is kind of my overall point.

I am not talking specifically UFC 151, I am talking in general that it seems like these days the fighters are more worried about their record, and their "brand" than they are being a fighter. Now, when you are making 15 million dollars a year I cannot say I blame them. However, IMO, when this sport started and you were fighting it was about seeing who the toughest man on the planet is. Fighters took risks, they tried to finish fights, they wanted the big fights because it meant more than money, and fame. It meant that they could look themselves in the mirror and say "I am the baddest man on the planet".

Say Bones loses a fight, he is still going to be a huge draw. The UFC isn't going to drop him. I do not know what it would mean for him financially but I assume he will still make millions every time he fights.

My disappointment lies in the fact that it seems guys these days are more concerned with being like Mayweather and saying "I am undefeated" than stepping and being able to say "I am the best". I will not ever think less of anyone for fighting and challenging themselves, and I certainly would not look at the loser of a Bones vs Silva fight like they have dropped from the top 3 fighters on the planet. To me it seems like those two should be chomping at the bit to fight to see who can lay claim to being the best fighter on the planet, and not so worried about what a potential loss would do.

I hope that makes sense.

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1/3/13 5:17 PM
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kingkoopa
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Jones is 100% correct--

The vast majority of criticism Jones receives is from fighters who haven't reached the pinnacle of the sport--

That's a shame--those so eager to push Jones into a short-notice fight may someday be in his position too.

Short sited.

Jones vs Sonnen proves the sport is becoming wwe

As far as taking short notice fights: the sport has become so strategy heavy, that most fights are no longer fights. Its just 2 guys scared to lose. This is another thing bringing the sport down.

Short notice fights show heart and the true martial arts ability of the fighters. 2 guys in there with little strategy, just going at it with what there good at. Phone Post

These guys are desperate. I mean some of these guys are making only $5000 a fight! Seriously? Is losing a few teeth, possibly your eyesight and sever million brain cells worth $5000, with no guarantee that you will make that six figure pay day?

These guys are scared to be cut. Three losses and your out, unless you are on DW's nut hanging list.

As much as I hate to quote Mayweather: MMA is for guys who couldn't cut it in Boxing. As much as everyone hates to admit it, star boxers can bring in a single payday equivalent to several UFC PPV sell outs.

To be quite honest, we don't know what or if the top MMA guys are getting as far as PPV cuts and from sponsors, because they refuse to make that mount public.

Boxers will and do tell what they make. Heck they enjoy flaunting their MTV crib homes and Bentley autos.

So the point I am making is. Yes these guys have to fight not to lose, anything else and they get cut
What about guys like leben. There is a good amount of fighters that keep losing but are exciting and they don't get cut.

Fighting not to lose and still losing is way worse. Look at how Fitch turned his shit around in his last fight... just saying Phone Post
1/3/13 5:26 PM
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12SixElbow
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Tru - 

nhb/ufc used to be about fights.  now mma is a sport with pro athletes and its about money and a sport.

 

whjy is anyone suprised about jones' comments.  He is probably one of the best athletes I have ever seen in my life; but he is not a "fighter" IMO.  flame me, vote me down, i dont care..he is the lebron james of mma, more athletic and bigger/longer than anyone else.  not even fun to watch sometimes.


Voted you UP for this.

 

Its the truth. Jon Jones is a sign of things to come, MMA will slowly go in the direction of boxing, politics, people refusing fights, champions refusing to defend belts for BS reasons, etc..

 

1/3/13 5:47 PM
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kingkoopa
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Tru - 

nhb/ufc used to be about fights.  now mma is a sport with pro athletes and its about money and a sport.

 

whjy is anyone suprised about jones' comments.  He is probably one of the best athletes I have ever seen in my life; but he is not a "fighter" IMO.  flame me, vote me down, i dont care..he is the lebron james of mma, more athletic and bigger/longer than anyone else.  not even fun to watch sometimes.


Voted you UP for this.

 

Its the truth. Jon Jones is a sign of things to come, MMA will slowly go in the direction of boxing, politics, people refusing fights, champions refusing to defend belts for BS reasons, etc..

 

Yup the golden years are gone Phone Post
1/3/13 7:00 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Death Beast - 
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Death Beast - 
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Death Beast - I just wish Jones would say what, IMO, is the real reason for turning down the fight with Sonnen.
From the moment Sonnen announced a move up to LHW, Jones knew that they'd meet eventually since it looked like they were going to give Sonnen a fast track to a title shot. That's BY FAR the biggest money fight for Jones at this point. Why should he throw away that much money by taking the fight on short notice with no marketing behind it? There's literally no other big money fight for him at LHW, not Hendo, not Gus, not anyone he's already beaten.


Even Dana said on the call the real reason. The young man was poorly advised. Dana called Jackson "a sport killer" on the call.


So his real reason was he was poorly advised? Because his other 'real' reason was that Sonnen didn't deserve a shot at him because JBJ thought he was racist and nowhere near #1 contender status but that didn't stop him from fighting Belfort or now fighting Sonnen anyway. The only difference is now he'll make a SHITLOAD of money with the hype behind it instead of on 8 days notice.
I'm sure if another takedown type guy wanted that fight instead of Belfort he would have been fine with it. He just didn't want to blow the one big money 205 fight available on short notice. Again just my opinion but I think it makes more sense than "He got bad advice from Greg Jackson and didn't want to fight a middleweight on short notice".
Obviously he couldn't just come out and say he'd rather fight Chael with proper hype or he'd sound greedy as shit.


Do you realize how stupid that is. He did not know he'd ever have to fight Sonnen at the time he refused to fight him at 151.

You're pulling crap out your ass. Simple as that.

He wanted more $$ by fighting him latter. LMFAO

He said a week earlier on radio show he'd fight Sonnen by the way.

Wow the UG LOL

I'm pulling it out of my ass that he knew he could just fight sonnen at a later date huh? My ass must be full of awesome then because that's exactly what he's doing dipshit.

Yeah he'd said he'd fight him if he earned his shot a week earlier. Then one of the first excuses out of his mouth was he didn't respect Sonnen and he was a racist so he didn't want to give him a shot undeservedly. But he's sure as shit doing that now isn't he? WTF changed? Other than now they'll have proper hype and he'll get paid alot more with the extra PPV buys.

Oh but he didn't say that so that can't possibly be the reason, got it....

Yeah you're right, the UG is full of fucktards


Um, yea he knew by 151 they'd need him and Sonnen for TUF and Sonnen would not fight before April. Sure why should't he know that! He also knew that Bones would injured and not be able to fight Hendo in Feb (super bowl weekend) which would lead to the April fight and TUF opening too! DERP


Likewise he said he'd fight Sonnen a week before he declined the fight on a radio show and there were no conditions at all, that is just another fantasy of yours too
1/3/13 7:26 PM
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Chappie
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I can't stand Jon Jones, but blame for the event's cancellation lays 100% with Zuffa, not with Jon Jones. It is sad that no one in the mma or general sports media had the courage to challenge Dana when he threw his temper tantrum and tossed Jon Jones and Greg Jackson under the bus for the promotion's failures to create a better card. Since the powers that be at Zuffa ultimately made the decision to cancel the event, perhaps they should have simply did the right thing and paid the other fighters who were set to appear on the card.
1/3/13 7:32 PM
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George Hill
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Macedawgg

Okay, in theory you have an argument.

In hindsight you have to now admit you're wrong.

He skipped Sonnen, took a fight with Belfort that did much worse on PPV and he made less money.

He got injured against Belfort, causing him to miss one cycle of a fight with a top contender he'd have had probably on the Dec. 29 show which is a plum date for PPV historically.

Yeah, he'll make good money with Sonnen but it's a higher risk fight, fighting a guy who has trained for you vs. a guy coming off the couch and when you are in top shape.

So you have a theoretical good point, but with the value of what ended up happening, the best you can say is with hindsight, you're dead wrong.
1/3/13 7:33 PM
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George Hill
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Plus, you shorten your career with every injury, and a bad elbow is never good to have at 25.
1/3/13 8:28 PM
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Phisher
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"He skipped Sonnen, took a fight with Belfort that did much worse on PPV and he made less money."

 

Did worse than what? UFC 152 was a short notice joke match up that got very little promotion, and it was still the  fifth best selling card of the year if you believe the estimates. 

Tell me that you're seriuosly not one of these fucking idiots who thinks that Chael can guarantee 700,000+ buys even on one week's notice in spite of the fact that he has no record of being a headline draw on his own.

1/3/13 9:43 PM
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RazorMMA
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HAHAHAHAHA
1/3/13 10:52 PM
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Phisher
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Edited: 01/03/13 11:48 PM
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Sugar Dick - 
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Sugar Dick -

He's lucky cowboy didn't knock him the fuck out

Yes, surely The Cowboy who was humiliated by Nate Diaz would be able to do what the best light heavyweights on the planet right now could not. Phone Post

In the streets it's a different story

 

You really think that Jones couldn't toss Cerrone around like ragdoll and break his neck with his bare hands without breaking a sweat in a "street fight"?

 

1/3/13 11:30 PM
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WoodenPupa
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WoodenPupa - "besides cerrone, which teammates have said something? please show me sources as well."

Good point, and also I'm wondering which MMA champions have talked crap about Jones' decision. As far as I know, nobody who gets a PPV cut from their fights criticized him. I don't even think anybody who regularly gets 6-figures did, champ or not.

You correct in everything you just said. In fact, Machida and Rua both declined to fight Jones when Dana called them to replace Sonnen.

Guess what their reason was? Yep the same as Jones. But here we are six months later and the same morons are still condemning Jones for crap the two former Champions did the same week.

Not the same at all.  Machida and Rua declined to take a short notice,fight against the toughest fighter in the world at 205 lbs., a guy who had destroyed both of them in less than 5 combined rounds.  

Jones refused to fight a guy coming up from a lower weight class, that had no training camp, and has had little success in the UFC at 205 to speak of in his career.  

The same thing would be if Rua and Machida had turned down a fight against an Okami or Marquart type, who was going to have 8 days notice for the fight, while they on the other hand they were going to be 2 months into their camp.  

VERY different scenarios, but here 6 months later, "the same morons" still can't see this.  


So Jones was supposed to show his valiance and warrior spirit by fighting a guy who had little chance against him?

Cerrone's point, and the issue that sparked this thread, is that a "real" warrior never calculates consequences. He's asked to fight, whoever, whenever. That Machida and Rua turned the fight down based on Jones being "the toughest fighter in the world" should only add to Cerrone's point---they should, by that POV, have taken the fight the instant it was offered.

But instead Machida and Rua cited lack of notice and therefore preparation time. Do you think Chael sucks so bad that Jones needs NO preparation against him?

And what do say about the fact that Chael and Jones sell PPV's on VERY different premises, Chael's by spectacular trash talking and dramatic results (usually him losing), Jones by simply being a winner? Chael just has to put on a show; Jones has to WIN.

Warrior spirit?  Dude this is MMA, there is no warrior spirit to speak of.  These guys refuse to fight unless they have months and months to come up with a tactic to avoid losing.  Jones and his camp cited exactly that reason for not taking the fight.  Too risky, they might lose.  And no Sonnen doesn't suck so bad, he is actually a very good fighter, one of the best in the world in fact, at 185 pounds.  Did you quote the worng post or are you seriously confused that I made a point of showing the situation with Jones being different than that of Machida and Rua?  


"No warrior spirit to speak of" eh? Spoken like a true Roman emperor! Cowardly training camps, scared little rat-like preparations! How dare they assess risk, my slaves---what do they think they have---a future??? The future is NOW *pounds the table with gnashed teeth*

I'm not seriously confused about anything. You responded to a post which stated "Machida and Rua both declined to fight Jones when Dana called them to replace Sonnen. Guess what their reason was? Yep the same as Jones."

You replied that these scenarios were in fact different. Your reason for stating so was that Chael is smaller, unsuccessful at 205 and was unprepared to boot; whereas Jones is "the toughest fighter in the world at 205,"

Therefore you differentiate between levels of opponent, and strongly imply that against the lower level, a champion like Jones needn't prepare. Either that, or you think (as many seem to) that Jones' preparation for Henderson should have sufficed as, and instantly converted into, preparation for Chael the moment the fight was proposed.

Therefore you make it sound as if Shogun/Machida's decisions to not fight Jones were the product of sound reasoning, whereas Jones' decision to not fight Chael was the product of cowardice.

But you kick off your entire reply to me by saying "Dude this is MMA, there is no warrior spirit to speak of." So nobody has warrior spirit, and yet there are at least two kinds of circumstances which are radically different in your mind, one of which causes Shogun's/Machida's decision understandable, but Jones' to be cowardly?
1/3/13 11:46 PM
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WoodenPupa
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Macedawgg - 

He didn't "throw away" a bunch of money--

He believes he put himself in a position to maximize his earnings--over his career.  Jones will have many more paydays.


Preach on, and vtfu.

When are people going to understand the thrust of your message (which you've asserted longer than anyone to my knowledge) about our sport?

The point---the ENTIRE point---is as you said "He BELIEVES he put himself in a position to maximize his earnings--over his career." His belief may or may not be wrong---but his decision was RATIONAL, that is, informed by FACTS (many of which we probably don't know) and all fighters subscribe to the virtues of choice calculus! And the more $$ at stake, the more calculations are weighed!

Why is that people insist budo emanate into business contracts?? That's the biggest SUCKER rationale I've ever heard. Why is it that a fighter is allowed only to fight his ass off in the cage, but never at the negotiating table?

How is it that people don't understand that applying MAXIMUM counter-leverage is the only way to ensure fairness in this business? I emphasize the term ENSURE. Some contracts are fair; some fighters are mysteriously treated like gold, others like charcoal. But it should all be left to the dice roll of budo I guess! Fighters should never try to ensure anything! That's cowardly after all!
1/4/13 12:04 AM
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WoodenPupa
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D241 - 

There's not a singler person who has yet to answer this question, and I'll ask it again.

 

'WHAT, did Jon Jones GAIN by NOT accepting the fight against Chael at 151?

 

He lost respect from fans and fighters, and his employers.

He lost a clear advantage when it comes to preparation. He could've fought Chael when Chael wasn't preparing for a lhw title fight. Now, he's still fighting Chael, except Chael has a full training camp to prepare for Jon.

As far as money goes, had he fought Chael at 151, it's debatable if he would make the same money as when he fights Chael after Tuf is over. But lets say Jones fighting Chael later instead of 151 on short notice gives 200-300k extra ppv buys(that's being extremely generous), Jones STILL could've fought for less money at 151, AND STILL take a fight the same time he's scheduled to fight Chael, and for just as much if not more money.

 

He lost respect from fans, friends, employers.

He lost a preparation advantage.

He lost a money opportunity by fighting the same guy once instead of fighting him at 151, then fighting the next guy.

 

WHAT-DID-HE-GAIN?

 

 


He may or may not gain. Surely you don't think the loss or gain instantiates the moment he hangs up the phone. It's contingent on future facts, whose value Jones and Co. predicted according to probabilities. That your assessment is different than his MIGHT be due to your being correct, but it could also be due to his possessing more facts and therefore better measure of probability. Your arguments might be valid but could well be false. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he knows more because he and his professional fight team and management know more than we do.

And if you think it all boils down to budo, then just say that, and dispense with all the weighted reasons. Just say that every fighter should fight who they're told to, when they're told to, and that if they fail to do this, it's because of cowardice.

As far as lost respect---mostly the same group bashing him are the ones who always have. He couldn't do anything right anyway, so his popularity couldn't be any lower with them. What "friends" besides Cerrone have lost respect for him? And Dana and co. are the ficklest employers imaginable. Awesome friends one day, cutthroat the next.

Re: preparation, do you think Jones is too stupid to interpret his own training correctly, ie, what it aims toward? In other words, do you not understand that preparation is the key to his success, as HE understands it? That training in general is quite different from training FOR a specific opponent?
1/4/13 12:15 AM
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WoodenPupa
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Phisher - 
JeffersonDArcyChoke -  Jon's reasoning by saying "you don't make a million to fight" is actually saying it's MORE important the more you earn.

Meaning, every move I make is way bigger than yours when you are the champ and making that kind of money.

If Cerrone loses, he loses not much but a fight.

If Jones loses, he loses it all.

THAT is what Jones was saying and everyone is reading into it otherwise.

I dislike Jones but he wasn't being a dick here. Phone Post

Watch it partner. This is extreme Jones nuthuggery. A true warrior cares not for material things or the state of his "career." The fact is that the coward Jones violated the esteemed budo code of the noble art of pink mohawks and tribal tattoos. Ths ignominy will never be lived down.


Exactly. A real warrior stays upright in a Borg regeneration chamber until a button is pressed on the wall, from which he emerges throwing TUF haymakers until collapsing. It makes signing contracts difficult, but if you make Dana your proxy to begin with all that is taken care of.
1/4/13 3:05 AM
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Macedawgg
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George Hill - Macedawgg

Okay, in theory you have an argument.

In hindsight you have to now admit you're wrong.

He skipped Sonnen, took a fight with Belfort that did much worse on PPV and he made less money.

He got injured against Belfort, causing him to miss one cycle of a fight with a top contender he'd have had probably on the Dec. 29 show which is a plum date for PPV historically.

Yeah, he'll make good money with Sonnen but it's a higher risk fight, fighting a guy who has trained for you vs. a guy coming off the couch and when you are in top shape.

So you have a theoretical good point, but with the value of what ended up happening, the best you can say is with hindsight, you're dead wrong.

No, this is not correct. 

You keep looking at this like its the equivalent of a shirt off the rack.  It is not--nothing like it.

Jones, should he keep winning, will be FAR more valuable and marketable for the mere fact that he has never lost.  The Jones Brand (and that is what he is aiming for)--will increase in value far more rapidly if he retains the belt with no losses moving forward. 

Jones still got his payday--he delayed it by a few months, and took the least amount of risk.  That is wise--and protecting his investment, in his career. 

 


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