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UnderGround Forums >> UG's Myths re: Eddie Alvarez Situation


1/8/13 4:37 PM
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Thacommish
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Thacommish - " You know the terms of Eddie's contract

No you don't. Unless you have actually seen Eddie's Bellator contract, you have no idea what it says, so for you to declare with such conviction what Bellator and/or Eddie's rights and obligations are is just silly. "

"The likelihood of the contract requiring Bellator to match the value is highly, highly unlikely."

how can you say highly, highly unlikely with such conviction like that without knowing?

i can state that its highly unlikely because its not the norm..i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value - there is a difference..others are saying that bellator HAS to match the value


"i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value" only that its "highly, highly unlikely" and what "norms" are using to compare this too?
1/8/13 4:49 PM
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dabigchet
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i don't think bellator's legal obligation is really the point. if eddie's terms are signing bonus + fight purse + PPV cut when main event and bellator just said, "ok, we'll match it!" they are being assholes to eddie. it is not the same offer for obvious reasons and bjorn is being an asshole plain and simple. it is not going to end well for people's perceptions of him.

PPV cut makes the upside of UFC contract obviously much higher. i have to wonder if the UFC didn't screw this up by not guaranteeing PPV main event if he wins the first fight of his contract.
1/8/13 5:01 PM
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Phil999
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#4 option of a settlement is most likely what will happen.
1/8/13 5:27 PM
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SmackyBear
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SmackyBear - Out of curiosity Goku, where do you practice?

I've seen quite a few covenants not to compete fail due to unreasonableness in scope or time, or just not protecting a legitimate business interest.

i primarily practice in securities/general corporate

 

admittedly, I am not a labor attorney and I don't know what jurisdiction the agreement is governed by so I don't know for sure the right of first refusal is enforceable...but, a non-compete and right of first refusal are technically different and presumably bellator's attorneys would not have included the provision if it was unenforceable


Fair enough.

Yeah, I'm just using non-compete clauses as an example because it also involves a restriction on entering into a labor contract. The right of first refusal clauses I see usually involve real property.
1/8/13 5:28 PM
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Thacommish - " You know the terms of Eddie's contract

No you don't. Unless you have actually seen Eddie's Bellator contract, you have no idea what it says, so for you to declare with such conviction what Bellator and/or Eddie's rights and obligations are is just silly. "

"The likelihood of the contract requiring Bellator to match the value is highly, highly unlikely."

how can you say highly, highly unlikely with such conviction like that without knowing?

i can state that its highly unlikely because its not the norm..i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value - there is a difference..others are saying that bellator HAS to match the value


"i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value" only that its "highly, highly unlikely" and what "norms" are using to compare this too?

norms based on other rights of first refusals in employee/contractor agreements...also just thinking it through practically trying to match value, as I noted in my post, is virutally impossible because the value is indeterminate

1/8/13 5:31 PM
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dabigchet - i don't think bellator's legal obligation is really the point. if eddie's terms are signing bonus + fight purse + PPV cut when main event and bellator just said, "ok, we'll match it!" they are being assholes to eddie. it is not the same offer for obvious reasons and bjorn is being an asshole plain and simple. it is not going to end well for people's perceptions of him.

PPV cut makes the upside of UFC contract obviously much higher. i have to wonder if the UFC didn't screw this up by not guaranteeing PPV main event if he wins the first fight of his contract.

the legal obligations are totally the point...eddie could have negotiated a much stronger right of first refusal that specifically requires bellator to match ppv, but that has value - maybe bellator wouldnt have paid him as much if he insisted on that type of provision...he cant now go back on his word now that bellator has already paid him and he wants out

1/8/13 5:51 PM
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Thacommish
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Thacommish - " You know the terms of Eddie's contract

No you don't. Unless you have actually seen Eddie's Bellator contract, you have no idea what it says, so for you to declare with such conviction what Bellator and/or Eddie's rights and obligations are is just silly. "

"The likelihood of the contract requiring Bellator to match the value is highly, highly unlikely."

how can you say highly, highly unlikely with such conviction like that without knowing?

i can state that its highly unlikely because its not the norm..i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value - there is a difference..others are saying that bellator HAS to match the value


"i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value" only that its "highly, highly unlikely" and what "norms" are using to compare this too?

norms based on other rights of first refusals in employee/contractor agreements...also just thinking it through practically trying to match value, as I noted in my post, is virutally impossible because the value is indeterminate


Can you give examples of a few of these that would compare directly to this case and would allow you to establish it as the norm for this particular one without having seen the contract, and can you give examples of courts failing to recognize a tangible like ppv % from an established company with a track record like zuffa and dismissing it as indeterminate value?
1/8/13 6:24 PM
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mclay
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Nice post..a bit fratish, but good points! Phone Post
1/8/13 6:34 PM
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Wovito
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dabigchet - i don't think bellator's legal obligation is really the point. if eddie's terms are signing bonus + fight purse + PPV cut when main event and bellator just said, "ok, we'll match it!" they are being assholes to eddie. it is not the same offer for obvious reasons and bjorn is being an asshole plain and simple. it is not going to end well for people's perceptions of him.

PPV cut makes the upside of UFC contract obviously much higher. i have to wonder if the UFC didn't screw this up by not guaranteeing PPV main event if he wins the first fight of his contract.

the legal obligations are totally the point...eddie could have negotiated a much stronger right of first refusal that specifically requires bellator to match ppv, but that has value - maybe bellator wouldnt have paid him as much if he insisted on that type of provision...he cant now go back on his word now that bellator has already paid him and he wants out


You're confusing legal obligations with contractual obligations. You're also speculating beyond what your knowledge of the contract permits. These are both mistakes for a lawyer.


Are you a wizard?
1/8/13 6:38 PM
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Thacommish - " You know the terms of Eddie's contract

No you don't. Unless you have actually seen Eddie's Bellator contract, you have no idea what it says, so for you to declare with such conviction what Bellator and/or Eddie's rights and obligations are is just silly. "

"The likelihood of the contract requiring Bellator to match the value is highly, highly unlikely."

how can you say highly, highly unlikely with such conviction like that without knowing?

i can state that its highly unlikely because its not the norm..i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value - there is a difference..others are saying that bellator HAS to match the value


"i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value" only that its "highly, highly unlikely" and what "norms" are using to compare this too?

norms based on other rights of first refusals in employee/contractor agreements...also just thinking it through practically trying to match value, as I noted in my post, is virutally impossible because the value is indeterminate


Can you give examples of a few of these that would compare directly to this case and would allow you to establish it as the norm for this particular one without having seen the contract, and can you give examples of courts failing to recognize a tangible like ppv % from an established company with a track record like zuffa and dismissing it as indeterminate value?

what do you mean examples..do you mean you want me to post actual contracts that i have drafted or reviewed that contain similar provisions? if so, no i can't do that legally, you'll have to take me for my word

 

i can almost guarantee you a court has never addressed this issue, but since judges are attorneys i can tell you what their thought process is and how they review contracts....and attempting to place a value on a hypotethical ppv # is not something a judge would do unless the contract specifically calls for that, which it doesnt...just try to think practically, tell me exactly how the value would be determined when you have no idea if eddie will EVER be on any ppvs and you have no idea what those ppvs will do...do you think all UFC ppvs do the same numbers? no there are HUGE variations between each ppv...

 

and besides all this, again, it is very possible  that bellator explicitly does not have to match unguaranteed money so the ppv issue is moot

1/8/13 6:42 PM
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dabigchet - i don't think bellator's legal obligation is really the point. if eddie's terms are signing bonus + fight purse + PPV cut when main event and bellator just said, "ok, we'll match it!" they are being assholes to eddie. it is not the same offer for obvious reasons and bjorn is being an asshole plain and simple. it is not going to end well for people's perceptions of him.

PPV cut makes the upside of UFC contract obviously much higher. i have to wonder if the UFC didn't screw this up by not guaranteeing PPV main event if he wins the first fight of his contract.

the legal obligations are totally the point...eddie could have negotiated a much stronger right of first refusal that specifically requires bellator to match ppv, but that has value - maybe bellator wouldnt have paid him as much if he insisted on that type of provision...he cant now go back on his word now that bellator has already paid him and he wants out


You're confusing legal obligations with contractual obligations. You're also speculating beyond what your knowledge of the contract permits. These are both mistakes for a lawyer.


Are you a wizard?

 

I was using dab's language...if you are making a distinction between legal and contractual obligations then thats your issue, obviously this whole post is about contractual obligations so your semantic argument is stupid

 

 

and of course i am specualting beyond what the contract "provides" (not "permits", there is a difference)..but i make it pretty clear when I am specualting and I am not stating any of my speculations as facts, which is unlike what many posters on here have done on this issue

and i am not giving any legal advice on this post so your "lawyer mistake'" comment is ridiculous..obviously if I were going to give eddie or Bellator legal advice I would need to see the terms of the contract

1/8/13 6:47 PM
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Thacommish
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Thacommish - " You know the terms of Eddie's contract

No you don't. Unless you have actually seen Eddie's Bellator contract, you have no idea what it says, so for you to declare with such conviction what Bellator and/or Eddie's rights and obligations are is just silly. "

"The likelihood of the contract requiring Bellator to match the value is highly, highly unlikely."

how can you say highly, highly unlikely with such conviction like that without knowing?

i can state that its highly unlikely because its not the norm..i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value - there is a difference..others are saying that bellator HAS to match the value


"i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value" only that its "highly, highly unlikely" and what "norms" are using to compare this too?

norms based on other rights of first refusals in employee/contractor agreements...also just thinking it through practically trying to match value, as I noted in my post, is virutally impossible because the value is indeterminate


Can you give examples of a few of these that would compare directly to this case and would allow you to establish it as the norm for this particular one without having seen the contract, and can you give examples of courts failing to recognize a tangible like ppv % from an established company with a track record like zuffa and dismissing it as indeterminate value?

what do you mean examples..do you mean you want me to post actual contracts that i have drafted or reviewed that contain similar provisions? if so, no i can't do that legally, you'll have to take me for my word

 

i can almost guarantee you a court has never addressed this issue, but since judges are attorneys i can tell you what their thought process is and how they review contracts....and attempting to place a value on a hypotethical ppv # is not something a judge would do unless the contract specifically calls for that, which it doesnt...just try to think practically, tell me exactly how the value would be determined when you have no idea if eddie will EVER be on any ppvs and you have no idea what those ppvs will do...do you think all UFC ppvs do the same numbers? no there are HUGE variations between each ppv...

 

and besides all this, again, it is very possible  that bellator explicitly does not have to match unguaranteed money so the ppv issue is moot


If a court has never addressed this issue how do you know what the norm is? btw this is the fighting business no money is guaranteed except the signing bonus and things of that nature, a promotion can only provide the opportunities to fight not guarantee that they will fight so many times a year and make so much, variables such as fighters health and other things dictate this. Also a court can establish the ufcs ppv bottom line as a bare minimum of the ppv %'s worth, again they have a proven track record and a history with this its very easy to obtain an actual value to this even if it is on the low side. But this whole premise of finding a loophole with "guaranteed money" is inherently pointless in the fight industry due to the nature of how these independent contractors work. none of it is guaranteed and any court or anyone with common sense will be able to tell you which side is offering the better oppurtunity.
1/8/13 6:52 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?

1/8/13 6:53 PM
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Thacommish - " You know the terms of Eddie's contract

No you don't. Unless you have actually seen Eddie's Bellator contract, you have no idea what it says, so for you to declare with such conviction what Bellator and/or Eddie's rights and obligations are is just silly. "

"The likelihood of the contract requiring Bellator to match the value is highly, highly unlikely."

how can you say highly, highly unlikely with such conviction like that without knowing?

i can state that its highly unlikely because its not the norm..i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value - there is a difference..others are saying that bellator HAS to match the value


"i am not saying it absolutely does not include the value" only that its "highly, highly unlikely" and what "norms" are using to compare this too?

norms based on other rights of first refusals in employee/contractor agreements...also just thinking it through practically trying to match value, as I noted in my post, is virutally impossible because the value is indeterminate


Can you give examples of a few of these that would compare directly to this case and would allow you to establish it as the norm for this particular one without having seen the contract, and can you give examples of courts failing to recognize a tangible like ppv % from an established company with a track record like zuffa and dismissing it as indeterminate value?

what do you mean examples..do you mean you want me to post actual contracts that i have drafted or reviewed that contain similar provisions? if so, no i can't do that legally, you'll have to take me for my word

 

i can almost guarantee you a court has never addressed this issue, but since judges are attorneys i can tell you what their thought process is and how they review contracts....and attempting to place a value on a hypotethical ppv # is not something a judge would do unless the contract specifically calls for that, which it doesnt...just try to think practically, tell me exactly how the value would be determined when you have no idea if eddie will EVER be on any ppvs and you have no idea what those ppvs will do...do you think all UFC ppvs do the same numbers? no there are HUGE variations between each ppv...

 

and besides all this, again, it is very possible  that bellator explicitly does not have to match unguaranteed money so the ppv issue is moot


If a court has never addressed this issue how do you know what the norm is? btw this is the fighting business no money is guaranteed except the signing bonus and things of that nature, a promotion can only provide the opportunities to fight not guarantee that they will fight so many times a year and make so much, variables such as fighters health and other things dictate this. Also a court can establish the ufcs ppv bottom line as a bare minimum of the ppv %'s worth, again they have a proven track record and a history with this its very easy to obtain an actual value to this even if it is on the low side. But this whole premise of finding a loophole with "guaranteed money" is inherently pointless in the fight industry due to the nature of how these independent contractors work. none of it is guaranteed and any court or anyone with common sense will be able to tell you which side is offering the better oppurtunity.

i know what the norm is in terms of what other service agreements with a right of first refusal component includes..i have never seen or heard of a right of first refusal in a service agreement that requires a company to match some nebulous value of the offerree...why? because its virtually impossible to determine...

even if we were to humor you and say that a court could determine a baseline ppv %, you still don't know how many PPVs eddie will be on..is he guaranteed to be on PPV cards? surely not or else bellator wouldn't have matched....

and sure of course the ufc provides greater value, but again, for the millionth time, bellator is not required to match value..i will bet you a million dollars the terms of the contract do not require them to match value...all they have to match is what the terms of the contract require...if the terms of the contract require bellator to match only guaranteed money and eddie signed that contract...TOO BAD.. a court will never disturb that result..

1/8/13 6:56 PM
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way

1/8/13 7:02 PM
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Thacommish
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Bantamweight-Tyson-Nam-Signs-with-WSOF-Draws-Winner-of-Miguel-TorresMarlon-Moraes-46175
Yeah doesnt work that way lol.
1/8/13 7:02 PM
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


I see...what if it's a guarenteed PPV appearnce, and a guarenteed $$/PPV with some sort of performance bonus/percentage?

Frankly, I see Bellator coming out on the losing end of this...they're going to burn a lot of money in court that could be used to secure talent.  And I don't think Uncle Phillipe is going to be floating them a lot of money...

 

Any idea if Viacom's lawyers are involved, or if it's just Bellator's?  I'd give a lot more weight to the interpration if it came from Viacom's legal staff.

1/8/13 7:05 PM
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Bantamweight-Tyson-Nam-Signs-with-WSOF-Draws-Winner-of-Miguel-TorresMarlon-Moraes-46175
Yeah doesnt work that way lol.

did u not see the word "usually"? Again i havent read eddies contract..i mentioned that upfront so i dont know the exact mechanics of how the right works

1/8/13 7:10 PM
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Thacommish
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Bantamweight-Tyson-Nam-Signs-with-WSOF-Draws-Winner-of-Miguel-TorresMarlon-Moraes-46175
Yeah doesnt work that way lol.

did u not see the word "usually"? Again i havent read eddies contract..i mentioned that upfront so i dont know the exact mechanics of how the right works


Yeah i figured id save you the trouble of alluding to people on how things "usually" work and show you how things ACTUALLY work in the real world, with an example based off the exact same contracts.
1/8/13 7:10 PM
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I dont like bjorn or bellator and the only time i ever watched was to see eddie or lombard....they will crash and burn like the rest of them. Phone Post
1/8/13 7:16 PM
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Bantamweight-Tyson-Nam-Signs-with-WSOF-Draws-Winner-of-Miguel-TorresMarlon-Moraes-46175
Yeah doesnt work that way lol.

did u not see the word "usually"? Again i havent read eddies contract..i mentioned that upfront so i dont know the exact mechanics of how the right works


Yeah i figured id save you the trouble of alluding to people on how things "usually" work and show you how things ACTUALLY work in the real world, with an example based off the exact same contracts.

 

alluding to people? lol...

 

also, that article refers to a right to match for a fighter that has been cut...perhpas the match is different for a fighter that hasnt been cut

 

and if the ufc can make a second offer, why dont they?

 

1/8/13 7:21 PM
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http://www.mmamania.com/2012/11/4/3598790/bellator-eddie-alvarez-early-release-ufc-strikeforce-mma
sorry bellator released eddie too, try again.
1/8/13 7:23 PM
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Bantamweight-Tyson-Nam-Signs-with-WSOF-Draws-Winner-of-Miguel-TorresMarlon-Moraes-46175
Yeah doesnt work that way lol.

did u not see the word "usually"? Again i havent read eddies contract..i mentioned that upfront so i dont know the exact mechanics of how the right works


Yeah i figured id save you the trouble of alluding to people on how things "usually" work and show you how things ACTUALLY work in the real world, with an example based off the exact same contracts.

 

alluding to people? lol...

 

also, that article refers to a right to match for a fighter that has been cut...perhpas the match is different for a fighter that hasnt been cut

 

and if the ufc can make a second offer, why dont they?

 


whos to say they havnt or wont? your the only one that indicated it was set in stone and ufc would not get a 2nd chance to offer, i havnt seen anyone else say that
1/8/13 7:25 PM
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Thacommish - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
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so what happens if UFC offers a new contract that includes a guarenteed PPV appearance, and a % of gate or buys (however paltry)?


even if they offered that the amount is still not guaranteed - theoretically a ppv could have 0 buys or a million buys, theres no way to know

 

second, i doubt the ufc will be able to take a second bite of the apple because usually rights of first refusal dont work that way


http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Bantamweight-Tyson-Nam-Signs-with-WSOF-Draws-Winner-of-Miguel-TorresMarlon-Moraes-46175
Yeah doesnt work that way lol.

did u not see the word "usually"? Again i havent read eddies contract..i mentioned that upfront so i dont know the exact mechanics of how the right works


Yeah i figured id save you the trouble of alluding to people on how things "usually" work and show you how things ACTUALLY work in the real world, with an example based off the exact same contracts.

 

alluding to people? lol...

 

also, that article refers to a right to match for a fighter that has been cut...perhpas the match is different for a fighter that hasnt been cut

 

and if the ufc can make a second offer, why dont they?

 


whos to say they havnt or wont? your the only one that indicated it was set in stone and ufc would not get a 2nd chance to offer, i havnt seen anyone else say that

 

again, i was only specualting based on what the norm is..i said very clearly that i dont know the actual terms of the contract..i never said it was set in stone..i was responding to a question based on what the convention is...if the ufc is able to make a second offer, does that really negate anything in my initial post? no, so i don't know why you are bothering

 

1/8/13 7:27 PM
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Gullivers Travels
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Member Since: 5/17/08
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Looks like the UFC is going to have to start guaranteeing more in terms of PPV appearance or some other bonuses when trying to pull guys away from Bellator.

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