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UnderGround Forums >> Rebney: 'Key misunderstanding' with Alvarez


1/9/13 2:58 PM
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da Vinci 81
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Pretty sure Dana has said publicly they got burned on the Lombard deal after he lost his debut. It's not surprising eddie's offer is not nearly as lucrative. Phone Post
1/9/13 3:04 PM
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Chris27
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MMALOGIC - 
Chris27 - It seems like the UFC fucked up by not guaranteeing PPV spots, seems like he can make PPV money if he headlines a PPV but its not guaranteed.

Bellator says they can do the same, if we do a PPV you can get points, they dont have to though just like the UFC doesnt have to put Eddie on PPV main events.

If the UFC said you will get guaranteed PPV slots and points Bellator couldnt match that but since it seems the UFC didnt do that Bellator might win this.


the thing is even if they gaurantee a ppv slot and points, bellator could match it.  bellator can put on a ppv and give eddie the same amount of points... the problem is that the ppv would pull like 20k buys so the points and ppv slot would be worthless.

but technically the term of the deal would be matched.

ppv slots and points is not the biggest challenge for belltor in matching... it's the signing bonus, show money, win money and any other payments for sponsorships with UFC apperal, appearances as an analyst on UFC programming, etc...

the gauranteed money is the challenge for bellator.

I think Zuffa structured the deal like this on purpose.  They were baiting bellator and they took the bait.  This was a clear sign to everyone on bellators roster or anyone thinking of signing with bellator, and any coach, manager that they'll be stuck there even after their 4 year deals.... which severely limits their upside.

this is the supply side.  you also have the bad PR with fan bakclash which is the demand side.  I think Zuffa baited them and they took the bait.

Zuffa could have easily taken the points out and said everytime you fight for a title you get 500k dollars.

Bellator could not monetize that because the only way eddie is worth the 250k signing bonus and 70+70 to bellator is if he's fighting chandler ie: for the title which would add 500k more to his purse.

 


Yes they could match the percentage of PPV points but yeah getting x percent of a Bellator PPV that does 50k buys isnt the same as x percent of a UFC PPV which could do 300-400k buys.

Thing is it isnt guaranteed so Bellator doesnt have to do PPV.

If UFC guaranteed him those PPV slots that would mean Bellator has to do PPV this year and frankly I dont think they would hvae matched it because they arent ready for PPV yet.

I think if the UFC guaranteed the PPV slots Bellator wouldnt have matched.

I know its like you said they could do it and give him the same points as the UFC deal even though they wouldnt do alot of buys I just dont think they would even try to do a PPV at this point because it would fail.

It would be pretty embarrassing if they put the biggest fight they can make on PPV and it doesnt even hit 100k buys or say it does even less. Say it does 40k buys that would make them look bad, dont even think they would try it this early on.

I like that idea about the title, if you fight for the title you get a one time bonus of 250k or 300k or whatever that would mean if they gave Eddie a title shot vs Chandler right away he would have to get an extra 250k or whatever for it.

That would have been a way to keep Bellator from matching.
1/9/13 3:08 PM
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Ramon Maroni
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herwil10 - 
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Matrixkick -  What is Lombard making?! Phone Post

Lombard got a $400,000 signing bonus,$300,000 purse per fight and pay-per-view points...

Source?

I find it hard to believe he is making 300K per fight plus ppv revnue

http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/10/27/3561868/bellator-set-to-expedite-eddie-alvarezs-free-agency-decision

"Rebney said that contract, which according to him paid Lombard a $400,000 signing bonus, a $300,000 starting purse per fight and pay-per-view participation points, was cost-prohibitive from Bellator's standpoint."

wow, pretty hard to imagine the LW champ made 39/39, and an unproven UFC commodity gets this deal to start
1/9/13 3:11 PM
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ec
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I'm assuming they matched his Ppv percentage as "potential revenue" and not guaranteed, contractual revenue. So if ufc gives him 1% of every Ppv buy, that is not set income and is potential revenue. Bellator saw that, said heck yeah if we do a Ppv Eddie can have 1%, and thought that was that.

I can see both sides of the argument but considering ufc is a Ppv monster and Bellator has never entered that market, I wonder how it would hold up in court? Interesting to see how this shakes out. Phone Post
1/9/13 3:20 PM
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MMALOGIC
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^ maybe they wouldnt match a gauranteed ppv slot but why would zuffa guarantee him a ppv slot and ppv money?  might as well pay him 300k a fight like they do Lombard.

all they would have to do is guarantee him 500k for every title fight he's in.  Bellator wouldnt be able to match that and zuffa wouldnt have to pay him big money unless he can win fights to get to a title fight.

There's all sorts of ways zuffa could have made it impossible for bellator to match without paying out more money and that's why i think they did it this way to bait bellator into this situation.

1/9/13 3:25 PM
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MMALOGIC
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what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.

1/9/13 3:29 PM
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sillypants
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Yeah, that's a terribly miss-matched offer, in terms of a "match". there's so much collateral marketing and exposure, let alone direct bonus or PPV points that there's really no way to "match" it. I mean, just think of the increase in sponsor cash when you're fighting in the UFC versus a smaller show?

Can't see how this could possibly hold up to a lawyer's scrutiny.

1/9/13 3:31 PM
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Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku
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what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.


its very possible that the contract only requires bellator to match guaranteed monetary compensation, nothing else...

1/9/13 3:35 PM
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Cyril Jeff
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what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.


its very possible that the contract only requires bellator to match guaranteed monetary compensation, nothing else...


 

you might be right, but I don't think that's the case... a matching contract would include bonus provisions as well, and since Bellator doesn't even offer PPV, I'm not sure how anyone would consider the 2 contracts the same?

1/9/13 3:45 PM
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Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku
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Edited: 01/09/13 3:45 PM
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Cyril Jeff - 
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MMALOGIC - 

what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.


its very possible that the contract only requires bellator to match guaranteed monetary compensation, nothing else...


 

you might be right, but I don't think that's the case... a matching contract would include bonus provisions as well, and since Bellator doesn't even offer PPV, I'm not sure how anyone would consider the 2 contracts the same?

 

well, bjorn said they only have to match the guaranteed money...he may be lying, but alvarez didnt really refute this, he just said ufc is lobster and bellator is mcdonalds..of course a ufc ppv and a bellator ppv are not equal in value, but theres no indication that the contract requires bellator to match value - otherwise it would be a no brainer..

 

 

and i doubt the right of first refusal requires bellator to match every single term offered or else the ufc could simply put something stupid in the contract, like you will fight for an orgarnization that starts with "u" and ends with "c"..presumably, bellator's attorneys are smart enough to foresee the very real probability that the one they would have to match would be the ufc, which has a ppv model..

1/9/13 3:52 PM
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Cyril Jeff
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I'm not doubting Bellator's Attorney's intelligence, I think they're throwing a hail Mary though, not sure how this will hold up in court?

seems like Viacom told them to "duke it out a bit", possibly to prevent more fighters from bolting?

1/9/13 3:56 PM
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Pat Giles
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Truth be told, none of us know what the fuck is in the contract. Or his current one even. This shit just needs to end. The guy wants to fight and get paid. Wish we could expedite this process. Phone Post
1/9/13 3:58 PM
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Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku
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Cyril Jeff - 

 

I'm not doubting Bellator's Attorney's intelligence, I think they're throwing a hail Mary though, not sure how this will hold up in court?

seems like Viacom told them to "duke it out a bit", possibly to prevent more fighters from bolting?


how what would hold up in court? if all the contract says is that all they have to match guaranteed money, there is no rule of law against that...this notion that they have to match value because that is what "match" means is a fan generated fantasy...

1/9/13 4:45 PM
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slamming
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herwil10 -
Matrixkick -  What is Lombard making?! Phone Post

Lombard got a $400,000 signing bonus,$300,000 purse per fight and pay-per-view points...
Got damn! Hector's making it rain! Phone Post

He's fighting on Fuel cards so no PPV bonus for him.
1/9/13 4:56 PM
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MMALOGIC
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what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.


its very possible that the contract only requires bellator to match guaranteed monetary compensation, nothing else...


 

you might be right, but I don't think that's the case... a matching contract would include bonus provisions as well, and since Bellator doesn't even offer PPV, I'm not sure how anyone would consider the 2 contracts the same?

 

well, bjorn said they only have to match the guaranteed money...he may be lying, but alvarez didnt really refute this, he just said ufc is lobster and bellator is mcdonalds..of course a ufc ppv and a bellator ppv are not equal in value, but theres no indication that the contract requires bellator to match value - otherwise it would be a no brainer..

 

 

and i doubt the right of first refusal requires bellator to match every single term offered or else the ufc could simply put something stupid in the contract, like you will fight for an orgarnization that starts with "u" and ends with "c"..presumably, bellator's attorneys are smart enough to foresee the very real probability that the one they would have to match would be the ufc, which has a ppv model..


tyson nam's attorney is saying he can completely obliterate Bellators matching rights position in court within 6 to 9 months...  he's the guy who got tyson nam out of his bellashit nightmare.

wsof made an offer and bellator initially matched it... Tyson Nam's lawyer sent them back to their hole.

1/9/13 5:04 PM
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Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku
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MMALOGIC - 
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Cyril Jeff - 
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MMALOGIC - 

what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.


its very possible that the contract only requires bellator to match guaranteed monetary compensation, nothing else...


 

you might be right, but I don't think that's the case... a matching contract would include bonus provisions as well, and since Bellator doesn't even offer PPV, I'm not sure how anyone would consider the 2 contracts the same?

 

well, bjorn said they only have to match the guaranteed money...he may be lying, but alvarez didnt really refute this, he just said ufc is lobster and bellator is mcdonalds..of course a ufc ppv and a bellator ppv are not equal in value, but theres no indication that the contract requires bellator to match value - otherwise it would be a no brainer..

 

 

and i doubt the right of first refusal requires bellator to match every single term offered or else the ufc could simply put something stupid in the contract, like you will fight for an orgarnization that starts with "u" and ends with "c"..presumably, bellator's attorneys are smart enough to foresee the very real probability that the one they would have to match would be the ufc, which has a ppv model..


tyson nam's attorney is saying he can completely obliterate Bellators matching rights position in court within 6 to 9 months...  he's the guy who got tyson nam out of his bellashit nightmare.

wsof made an offer and bellator initially matched it... Tyson Nam's lawyer sent them back to their hole.


im not that familiar with tyson's situation. what happened exactly?> .i thought wsof made an offer, bellator matched, and then wsof made a higher offer and bellator didnt match?

1/9/13 5:06 PM
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MMALOGIC
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MMALOGIC - 

what if UFC said you get 10 million dollars everytime you fight in a round cage?  how can bellator match that?

you get 10 million dollars every fight you show up for in 2013 that gets aired on spike in 2013... how can bellator match that?

there are hundreds of poison pills Zuffa could have included in the deal to make it impossible for bellator to match.


I've been saying that since the start, why not put them in the contract?
Even if they don't allow them just write that IF you become champion you will get $X per view (if it's on TV or PPV) and then if by chance any BFC fighter becomes champion, don't put them on a Fox card. It will essentially steal away any BFC big name fighter. Also state with 2 wins he gets a title fight which eliminates the possibility of him going to fight in a BFC tournament.

Just another idea

bingo... you came up with the perfect formula.

I believe zuffa understands what both you and I are saying...  I think they are doing this on purpose. 

The war between zuffa and spike is gonna last up to 3 years.

Alvarez and Lombard arent really names... the guys who are gonna be featured on spike with 600k to 800k eyeballs or more watching is what zuffa is gonna go hard after.

The lombard signing was a message to viacom that we can take whoever we want when their contract is over... the alvarez situation is a message to fighters, managers, coaches not to get stuck in bellator.

Zuffa may still end up with alvarez to send another message to viacom saying we just got 2 of the biggest names in the org you just purchased.... like that.  there goes your tape library that features alvarez and lombard.

1/9/13 5:22 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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OuTkAsTTTTT69 -  The thing I take from reading these articles is that Eddie would gain more from just being in the UFC.. not necessarily just the money but being in the promotion. They matched sure, but are they gonna match the exposure and marketing of the UFC? No Phone Post

This seems about right.

 

The problem lies in that Bjorn feels that they matched everything they were obligated to match, and Eddie and his team do not.

1/9/13 5:38 PM
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Sabaki
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Edited: 01/09/13 5:38 PM
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I think Eddie will be stuck in Bellator because if what Rebney says is true, that they copied the contract and just added bellator to it - its gonna hold up in court. <br /><br />A court wont take into account any verbal promises of future ppv cuts from the UFC..<br /><br />If your contract says you will get 250k to sign and 75 to show up and 75 to win - And they match it then he is fcuked.<br /><br />A court of law cant count in the fact you would have a higher sponsorship in the UFC cause you got bigger coverege. Thats not part of the CONTRACT WITH YOU AND YOUR EMPLOYER..<br /><br />claim. <br /><br /><br /><br />
1/9/13 5:42 PM
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Granpa
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OuTkAsTTTTT69 -  The thing I take from reading these articles is that Eddie would gain more from just being in the UFC.. not necessarily just the money but being in the promotion. They matched sure, but are they gonna match the exposure and marketing of the UFC? No Phone Post

he shoulda thought of that when he chose bellator over the ufc


Exactly. Sounds to me like the UFC gave Eddie an offer, Bellator matched it, but Eddie's heart was set to going to the UFC where he knows he could make more from sponsors, etc.

The original contract he signed with Bellator came back to bite him in the ass. But he signed it so now he has to deal with it.
1/9/13 6:06 PM
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the_fight_observer
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Chris27 - It seems like the UFC fucked up by not guaranteeing PPV spots, seems like he can make PPV money if he headlines a PPV but its not guaranteed.

Bellator says they can do the same, if we do a PPV you can get points, they dont have to though just like the UFC doesnt have to put Eddie on PPV main events.

If the UFC said you will get guaranteed PPV slots and points Bellator couldnt match that but since it seems the UFC didnt do that Bellator might win this.


the thing is even if they gaurantee a ppv slot and points, bellator could match it.  bellator can put on a ppv and give eddie the same amount of points... the problem is that the ppv would pull like 20k buys so the points and ppv slot would be worthless.

but technically the term of the deal would be matched.

ppv slots and points is not the biggest challenge for belltor in matching... it's the signing bonus, show money, win money and any other payments for sponsorships with UFC apperal, appearances as an analyst on UFC programming, etc...

the gauranteed money is the challenge for bellator.

I think Zuffa structured the deal like this on purpose.  They were baiting bellator and they took the bait.  This was a clear sign to everyone on bellators roster or anyone thinking of signing with bellator, and any coach, manager that they'll be stuck there even after their 4 year deals.... which severely limits their upside.

this is the supply side.  you also have the bad PR with fan bakclash which is the demand side.  I think Zuffa baited them and they took the bait.

Zuffa could have easily taken the points out and said everytime you fight for a title you get 500k dollars.

Bellator could not monetize that because the only way eddie is worth the 250k signing bonus and 70+70 to bellator is if he's fighting chandler ie: for the title which would add 500k more to his purse.

 

Great post MMAlogic Phone Post
1/9/13 6:11 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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yeah, Rebney leaves out that Eddie would get PPV dollars if he signed with the UFC. He would be main card material for sure.

What an asshole Rebney is, he completely disregard the core issue, trying to make it seem like he's a good guy and that the deal is fair.

fuck off Rebney
1/9/13 7:42 PM
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mmavixen
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I'm listening to Bloddy Elbow radio to hear what Bjorn has to say.  We shall see...

1/9/13 8:31 PM
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Silverball
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If the UFC wanted Eddie, then they could've had him. I have a feeling that the offer they (UFC) made had a lot to do with not upsetting some of their current champions and top contenders, who likely make considerably less. Phone Post
1/10/13 9:43 AM
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Cyril Jeff
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ttt


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