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UnderGround Forums >> Alvarez Contract Details, UFC TItle Shot, PPV Cut


1/10/13 1:10 AM
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orcus
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Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
chawkins - Is there an attorney in the house? If so, can you explain how Bellator can claim to be matching UFC's offer by offering PPV points, when Bellator doesn't *have* any PPV shows to give Eddie points from? It looks like bad faith, if I understand the meaning of the term.

the ufc didnt guarantee eddie will be on any ppvs. and with those points its unlikely the ufc puts him on a ppv amy time soon.


He's guaranteed an immediate title shot. Benson having back to back title defenses on free TV isn't especially likely, and if Eddie wins, what are the odds of him having his first defense on free tv? Four lightweight title fights in a row on free TV just doesn't sound plausible.

1/10/13 1:24 AM
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hogh20
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ender852 - 
MMALOGIC - 

Zuffa needs to move away from ppv cuts, and into gauarnteed pay.  move to same weight class cards and you dont have to be so dependant on individual fighters.

does anyone see an NFL team in a bidding battle against a CFL team for a player? if it even happens nobody gives a shit.

Zuffa has the opportunity to revolutionize combat sports by making the UFC a divisional sport which is stable and a proven foundation for the most popular sports in the world instead of an individual sport which is highly volitile and cyclical.


it is not feasible to have all same weightclass cards. if they did they would see a huge drop on all the lower weight cards ppv numbers, and a big spike on the heavyweight/lightheavy cards. by doing things the way they are now it forces fans to be interested in all the cards, not just some of them. also if you are a lightweight and you are injured, you miss one of the 2 lightweight cards in a year, and then miss your window to fight? man, there are so many problems with the business model you propose.

There is another thread, older thread, we he outlines his proposed theory. I love it. And there are answers for all of your problems listed. First off, he suggests not having the lighter weights fight cards be ppvs, because, as you stated, they wouldn't sell. So from 155, or 145, down, those are what go on the Fox cards. Also, have the weight classes fight 3 times per year, not 2. that way, if someone is injured and can't fight, they don't sit out forever, they recover, and then begin training again. they won't miss any more time than the model there is now.
1/10/13 2:17 AM
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stonepony
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mmavixen - 

It's really intersting.  I am listening to Bloody Elbow right now (Bjorn was on last night).  Very interesting dilemma. I don't know how this will play out, but Bellator seems to be losing in the battle of public opinion.


They're doing so many things wrong at this point. They should be throwing hookers through DW's hotel room windows. They should be doing everything they can to create connections to the UFC, and build a cooperative relationship. Co-promotion isn't going to happen. So it's going to go one of two ways for Bellator, they pull this kind of crap and screw with the integrity of the sport, and the UFC is just going to steamroll them. Force them to spend what they can't afford to keep fighters who want to move up. The UFC will counter-program them and wield their influence around the industry to make it expensive and difficult for Bellator to do anything. The UFC getting the Fox deal, on free Network Television, pretty much solidified their position and squashed the hopes of the doofuses who were asking for co-promotion. Bellator should be making the transition process for fighters easier, not harder. They put on great programming, I don't want them to be stupid like Affliction and SF. etc. They need to take that 2nd tier spot while they still can. Hitch their wagon to the UFC, and they're completely safe in the industry from then on. There are a hundred other little organizations ready to step up and replace Bellator.
1/10/13 2:33 AM
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ender852
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hogh20 - 
ender852 - 
MMALOGIC - 

Zuffa needs to move away from ppv cuts, and into gauarnteed pay.  move to same weight class cards and you dont have to be so dependant on individual fighters.

does anyone see an NFL team in a bidding battle against a CFL team for a player? if it even happens nobody gives a shit.

Zuffa has the opportunity to revolutionize combat sports by making the UFC a divisional sport which is stable and a proven foundation for the most popular sports in the world instead of an individual sport which is highly volitile and cyclical.


it is not feasible to have all same weightclass cards. if they did they would see a huge drop on all the lower weight cards ppv numbers, and a big spike on the heavyweight/lightheavy cards. by doing things the way they are now it forces fans to be interested in all the cards, not just some of them. also if you are a lightweight and you are injured, you miss one of the 2 lightweight cards in a year, and then miss your window to fight? man, there are so many problems with the business model you propose.

There is another thread, older thread, we he outlines his proposed theory. I love it. And there are answers for all of your problems listed. First off, he suggests not having the lighter weights fight cards be ppvs, because, as you stated, they wouldn't sell. So from 155, or 145, down, those are what go on the Fox cards. Also, have the weight classes fight 3 times per year, not 2. that way, if someone is injured and can't fight, they don't sit out forever, they recover, and then begin training again. they won't miss any more time than the model there is now.

i like variety in cards, i don't wanna wait to see different fights. don't fix it if it aint broke.

1/10/13 2:34 AM
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ender852
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also there will NEVER be an all girl 135 card, but lemme guess, you are not a fan of that either are you?

1/10/13 2:34 AM
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ender852
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variety is the god damn spice of life.

1/10/13 2:35 AM
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Macedawgg
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ReturnofJaco - Guys (and three or four gals),

It's important to note that an update has been made to the story.

The UFC's contract offer says it INTENDS to give Alvarez a title shot, which in legal terms gives it an out.

The key distinction is that Alvarez is not guaranteed a title shot, so Bellator doesn't have to match it, and since matching is what the whole dispute is about, that's a big point.

Which, I'm sad to say, I didn't make clear enough. I am, however, working on a follow-up that fleshes everything out in a better way, so please keep your pitchforks in check.

Steven Marrocco
(The guy who wrote the story)

Apparently, he IS NOT guarantied an immediate title shot.

1/10/13 2:51 AM
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Mic the Tapper
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SupesUp -  And according to bjorn if Alverez had been offered Lombard money he woulda just let him go.
Hector must be making some bank. Phone Post

damn straight!
crazy figures for Lombard!
<I>"Lombard hit the open market, where he was immediately offered a lucrative deal with the UFC. Rebney said that contract, which according to him paid Lombard a $400,000 signing bonus, a $300,000 starting purse per fight and pay-per-view participation points, was cost-prohibitive from Bellator’s standpoint."</I>
<A HREF="http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/10/27/3561868/bellator-set-to-expedite-eddie-alvarezs-free-agency-decision">mmafighting.com</A>
1/10/13 3:02 AM
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Mic the Tapper
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oops sorry about the html
1/10/13 3:55 AM
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whoabro
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MMALOGIC -

Zuffa needs to move away from ppv cuts, and into gauarnteed pay.  move to same weight class cards and you dont have to be so dependant on individual fighters.

does anyone see an NFL team in a bidding battle against a CFL team for a player? if it even happens nobody gives a shit.

Zuffa has the opportunity to revolutionize combat sports by making the UFC a divisional sport which is stable and a proven foundation for the most popular sports in the world instead of an individual sport which is highly volitile and cyclical.

Good luck making single-weight-class cards work with injuries the way they are Phone Post
1/10/13 4:35 AM
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MMALOGIC
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^ that's exactly why it'll work... look at ufc 146... the main event (overeem) and like 2 other HW's on the card were taken out and it still went off with the fans pleased getting their money's worth, zuffa still pulling off a great ppv buy rate/gate, and fighters who were still able to fight getting opponents.

1/10/13 4:41 AM
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CindyO
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liquidrob - Of course no one will read the update and go nuts thinking Eddie was offered a title fight and ppv cut for hos first fight for the next 10 pages

They should edit the first post, IMO, to be fair.

 

Cindy

1/10/13 4:47 AM
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sadisticsoldier
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Crazy. I can't believe Bellator is even bothering suing over this. With the immediate title shot with PPV points actually in the contract, Bellator's "matching" is just a joke. Rebney admitting they didn't change a word in the contract is basically admitting he is trying to get one over. If they really wanted to keep Alvarez, they would have offered more in order to compensate. In my opinion, by doing this they are really just trying to throw a wrench in the works. I really do find it disrespectful to Alvarez knowing this now. No way they expected Alvarez to just agree to the contract as is. This lawsuit was there goal when they realized they didn't want to truly match the offer.
1/10/13 5:09 AM
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Pat Giles
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MMALOGIC -

^ that's exactly why it'll work... look at ufc 146... the main event (overeem) and like 2 other HW's on the card were taken out and it still went off with the fans pleased getting their money's worth, zuffa still pulling off a great ppv buy rate/gate, and fighters who were still able to fight getting opponents.

Won't work. Nor will it ever happen. Wanna put all 125/35/45 people on Fox? Enjoy your 750k views. Casual fans won't watch. Phone Post
1/10/13 5:14 AM
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MMALOGIC
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The title shot and ppv slot isnt gauranteed (mmajunkie updated their article).  A fight on fox however is guaranteed. 

How does bellator match a guaranteed fight on Fox? 

1/10/13 5:20 AM
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Macedawgg
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LOL

1/10/13 5:25 AM
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Canadian_26
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Ppv cut doesn't say headlining a Ppv either, just fighting on Ppv. Wow. Phone Post
1/10/13 5:27 AM
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MMALOGIC
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Edited: 01/10/13 5:40 AM
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Pat Giles - 
MMALOGIC -

^ that's exactly why it'll work... look at ufc 146... the main event (overeem) and like 2 other HW's on the card were taken out and it still went off with the fans pleased getting their money's worth, zuffa still pulling off a great ppv buy rate/gate, and fighters who were still able to fight getting opponents.

Won't work. Nor will it ever happen. Wanna put all 125/35/45 people on Fox? Enjoy your 750k views. Casual fans won't watch. Phone Post

 

2 of the biggest combat sports stars and ppv draws fight at 145 (pacman and mayweather).

The return of Boxing to network television on CBS had a card of only light weights (145 and below) and pulled around the same number as NBC's boxing catd which had a cheavyweight fight. But UFC can only pull 750k viewers on fox with the lighter weights?

wec which only had the lighter weights pulled over a million viewers on versus multiple times, and over 500k several times.  Bellator who has heavier weight cards cant even pull those numbers and mtv2 has a higher average primetime audiance (100k) and is available in more homes (over 80m) compared to versus (primetime avge of less than 50k, available in 76 million homes).

WEC also pulled the highest ppv buy rate of any non-ufc brand.  and they only had light weights.  Affliction which spent 6 million on payroll with Fedor,arlovski, barnett, etc... couldnt even pull that many ppv buys.

the general consensus in the mma world was that the wec was one of the best mma products ever.  as soon as they got mixed into the UFC we began to hear complainsts... why?

because if you place a lighter weight guy next to a heavier weight guy, naturally people compare the 2.  when you place a flyweight fight next to other flyweight fights they compare flyweights to other flyweights.

Give the lighter weights their own stage and they will shine.

1/10/13 6:03 AM
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GelderdEnd
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Why does he get an immediate title shot when people like Pettis didn't? As said earlier I think he loses from Jim Miller upwards! Phone Post
1/10/13 7:23 AM
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liquidrob
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It is NOT an immediate title shot

MMA media strikes again
1/10/13 8:01 AM
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sadisticsoldier
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much - UFC should of wrote that IF Alvarez becomes champion the next fight he is in has to be on a PPV and IF it does not sell more then 200,000 PPVs he get $5,000,000.00

Then BFC is beyond f'd because even the best BFC card would NEVER sell more then 200k PPV's.

Also, give him his normal $2 per PPV on anything over 200k buys. Reason I stated that was I don't recall the last UFC PPV that did not sell 200k+ buys and they could stack the card to make sure there is no possible way it does not get to 200k+ buys.

Supposedly UFC 150 did less than 200k buys and it just so happened to be headlined by the LW title fight rematch between Ben Henderson and Frankie Edgar.
1/10/13 8:10 AM
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QueenCityLurker
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Othello - 
chawkins - Is there an attorney in the house? If so, can you explain how Bellator can claim to be matching UFC's offer by offering PPV points, when Bellator doesn't *have* any PPV shows to give Eddie points from? It looks like bad faith, if I understand the meaning of the term.

PPV buys are theoretical. The amount each one sells fluctuates so much, how exactly could you put a dollar figure on them?

Easy. Law of averages.
If the UFC was smart, they would simply take an average viewership of ALL PPVs over the course of say 1, 3 or 5 years.
That becomes your baseline. Then you leverage your contract to state how much said fighter is guaranteed in PPV dollars for however many PPVs. They could even put in the contract that Eddie could fight on up to X amount of PPVs, but no less than one or two.
Then Bellator cannot match and it's game over.
1/10/13 8:28 AM
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sadisticsoldier
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liquidrob - It is NOT an immediate title shot

MMA media strikes again

Where is this info coming from? A link would be nice as well. Even in the updated article it still says the contract specifies the intent for a March title fight? Is it because it is an intent rather than a guarantee, so that means it won't happen? I'd guess the reason that it is an intent and not a guarantee is because there is no way to guarantee such a thing. If the champion is injured or refuses to fight at that time, than the contract would be violated if it was a guarantee. On the other side of the token, if the UFC outright refuses the title shot and wants Alvarez to fight without the title on the line, I'd imagine he would have a strong case to challenge the contract in court.
1/10/13 8:39 AM
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fightharder
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Masakyst - Eddie is making that Anderson Silva money!!

God i hope not for Anderson Silva. He should be making a lot more .

 

And i personally think he does. The whole discussion about fighters pay might have been poignant but some people seriously underestimate the amount of money Zuffa pays out to some of their fighters. I think a lot of the money is never public mentioned.

 

I also think Bellator will not be able to match this offer in terms of PPV revenue. Since they are the smaller league as well they should have offered Eddie a lot more base pay. Then there would at least be something to thing about because Bellator vs UFC would be security vs potential big reward under harder circumstances.

 

I personally think,being the athlete that he is,that he would still go for the UFC contract since it simply the better more competitive league. But who knows,his wife/ family might pursued him to cause stability over relative insecurity.

 

Anways i personally think the deal is a bit rich once again. I like Eddie but Zuffa has a tendency to pay over what is reasonable for Bellator stars. I can understand this from a strategic viewpoint (they are competitors) but if you just sec look at the deal (or Lombard deal for that matter...which is believe is a lot worse the deal Eddie being offered in terms actually making a ''profit'' out of it) its not a money maker.

 

Then again i am glad that Eddie is getting the offers. I do think he is a extremely entertaining fighter. And while i do not think he has any chance of beating Bendo or even Frankie of Maynard etc , i do think he will be a valuable addition from a fans perspective.

1/10/13 8:41 AM
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Card
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- Alvarez would get an eight fight deal starting with a $70K/$70K (show/win bonus) and he would receive a $5,000 bump with each win until $210,000 which would be guaranteed.
- He would receive a $250,000 signing bonus.
- He would receive $1 for each PPV buy between 200K and 400K; $2 for each buy between 400K and 600K and $2.50 per buy over 600K.
- Alvarez would also be guaranteed a fight on Fox and opportunities to guest commentate on UFC branded events.

Bellator’s offer included a $250,000 signing bonus and a $125,000 to participate on Spike TV events.


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