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S&C UnderGround >> Percentage question


1/13/13 10:18 PM
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baby-silverback
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This is more for me & personal goals. I incorporate box jumps in my program & just wondered what would be a good percentage per body height would be considered good. I know its really a person to person what our good for you question, but just wondered if you start getting to 50% of your height if that is considered pretty good. Thanks Phone Post
1/14/13 7:34 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Totally dependent on the person, and things like hip flexibility. For example, some of Joe DeFranco's guys will hit box jumps of 60 inches or more. However, if you look, they pull their knees all the way to their chins and have their toes at almost nipple level when they land and then stand up.

Meanwhile, a lower box may actually elicit a greater "vertical" from someone who has less hip flexibility.

I personally don't hop on a box over 1 meter tall. If that is too easy, I start holding hand weights while doing it. It's a good enough height to make sure I am getting some hops, but if I fuck it up I can dump the hand weights quickly enough not fuck myself up by eating box. Or at least, the type of box I don't like to munch on.
1/14/13 8:36 AM
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LiftStrong
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As CS indicated, hip mobility is really big for box jumps. I would think someone with an average vert and average hip mobility would be able to jump on a box about half of their height. Also important for factor in bodyweight. The more weight you are carrying the harder it will to get your ups.

I will also echo CS's sentiment on not necessarily needing to jump onto the highest box possible. I program a pretty decent bit of jumping into my programs, but we mix them up. Some for max height, some low box weighted, some depth jumps, some band resisted, etc.
1/14/13 10:59 AM
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Wiggy
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Hip mobility is actually why DeFranco (and several other such coaches) have their guys doing box jumps (instead of other jump variations) in the first place.  There's no way you can stick a high box jump without not only good hip mobility, but the ability to express at least some levels of strength at such an extreme range of motion (i.e. - landing the jump and standing up out of it as opposed to jumping over a hurdle or something similar).  

Combine that with the fact that box jumps are uber-easy to learn, and that's why you have many coaches who'll have their athletes doing heavy squats and box jumps instead of taking the necessary time to learn sufficient O-lift variation form.

One other thing - just so that it's said - hip mobility for box jumps (or hurdle jumps either, for that matter) are the exact reason why you see all these stupid claims on forums and youtube about these insane supposed vertical jumps.  Just because you can jump onto or over something doesn't mean you can jump as high as it.  Massive difference.

(I know that wasn't the OP's point or question, but just putting it out there as it's a fairly common misconception.)

Wiggy - http://www.workingclassfitness.com

1/14/13 12:09 PM
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baby-silverback
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Thanks guys Phone Post
1/14/13 3:12 PM
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baby-silverback
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CS, you stressed that you don't go over a box a meter high. Could you elaborate? Also, how tall are you? I'm 5'5". That's a big jump for me, so that would be something I would want to do for my work sets. Phone Post
1/15/13 4:33 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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I'm 6 feet tall, 240. I chose 1 meter for arbitrary reasons really. It was a jump I could make pretty "cold" without a lot of training 1 time.

Also, it was the height of a box that a gym I was going to had.

If you want to choose a box for work sets, choose one that is about waist height or a bit lower. It may seem easy, but if you add some weights, then you'll see a challenge. I wouldn't increase height until you were holding 25-40 pounds in your hands (or in a vest, if you have one you lucky bastid) and still landing the jump consistently.
1/16/13 6:57 PM
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baby-silverback
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Ha, that would explain it. A 30" box is pretty easy. Hit my session Monday & got 5x5 at 37". I have increased the height last 3 weeks & I like to vary the height & also do weighted jumps & bw jumps too. Appreciate the input! Phone Post
1/16/13 7:42 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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I tend to follow the Joe DeFranco method of 8x3 instead of 5x5, but cool man.
1/16/13 7:43 PM
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Taku
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I'll admit I did not read all of the responses above, so forgive me if this has already been said.

1. IMHO there is very little need to cultivate the skill of jumping up onto boxes etc.

2. After a certain point, it is more about how high one can pull up there legs rather than actual vertical jump.

As an example. my verticle jump is about 25 inches (nothing special). I can easily jump onto a box approx  twice that high because I am pulling my knees up as high as possible while jumping.

This type of training looks cool (I guess) but does not offer any special benefit to athletes etc. If you are a basketball player, more actual jumping in live playing situations is a better use of time. If you are a high jumper, olympic lifter, 100 meter dash sprinter, ____<--Insert sport there, you are better off training the specific skills, mechanics of your actual sport than jumping on an off boxes.

Just my two cents.

TAKU

1/16/13 8:22 PM
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baby-silverback
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What I've been trying to do is arrange my exercises around the way I grapple. At times it's explosive, so when I hit the gas, I want my body to react accordingly. Box jumps has been something I've incorporated in the last 3-4 months. Just trying to keep it game specific off you follow me.

Chocolate, when I drop it to 3 reps I've only bumped it up one set. I'll mix in the 8 sets soon.

Taku, any suggestions brother? Phone Post
1/17/13 4:35 AM
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Leigh
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Agree its about hip flexibility and also agree with Taku that its not an important skill unless you want to jump onto boxes.

Regarding Wiggy's comment about guys training box jumps to develop hip flexibility, is this a builder of flexibility or a demonstration of flexibility? That logic might seem familiar ;)
1/17/13 7:28 AM
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LiftStrong
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Have to disagree about jumping onto a high box being more for show or not adding much benefit to an athlete. Clearly they arent the end all, be all of training but they are certainly usefull for stimulating the CNS and developing explosive power.

Jumping is the most explosive movement you have in your tool box. IMO, there are few movements that can match the RFD and FT muscle recruitment of a max height box jump. Not to mention it brings out competitiveness in athletes. It sets the tone for an intense training session and gets them engaged and focused.

Again, I only use them every couple weeks and usually just work up to 5x3 before a heavy squat session.
1/17/13 7:50 AM
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Leigh
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What is the benefit to recruiting more RFD and FT? Jumping won't make you as strong or as explosive as squatting will. Lifting weights probably brings out more competitiveness in athletes.
1/17/13 8:03 AM
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Wiggy
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"Have to disagree about jumping onto a high box being more for show or not adding much benefit to an athlete."

I don't know that anyone is necessarily saying that jumping onto a high box is just for show.  If you're referring to my comments, I didn't mean that at all.  My point was that a box jump is different than a vertical jump.  I get tired of seeing assclowns on forums and youtube posting stuff like "ZOMG!  I haz a 52" vertical jump!" as they do a running approach hurdle jump.

Not saying that sort of thing isn't impressive - I'm saying it's not a VJ.  

"Regarding Wiggy's comment about guys training box jumps to develop hip flexibility, is this a builder of flexibility or a demonstration of flexibility? That logic might seem familiar ;)"

Mate, who would ever make a point like that?  ;-)

I think it's a little bit of both.  Those with natural hip flexibility are obviously going to be better (demonstration).  But I also think that if you do them over a long enough period of time, you can't help but get better at them (including being able to pull your knees higher, express strength at more extreme ROM, etc).  That sort of improvement is obviously not going to take place as quickly as potential increases in strength and power, but it would, of course, depend on the person.

Either way, for people that are pressed for time - e.g. athletes who only have 8-12 weeks before pre-season starts - squats + box jumps are still, IMO, more often a better choice as proper O-lift variation technique improvement will take too long...especially if you count the time it will take to not only become proficient in the lift, but be able to do it with any sufficient weight.

All about efficiency, IMO.

1/17/13 10:23 AM
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LiftStrong
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Wasnt referring to you there Wiggy. I knew where you were going with that. And even though I like adding in O lifts when I can, I agree that when there are time constraints technique intensive movements are less than ideal. Though I do still like to throw in partials :)

Leigh - Performing box jumps in combination with squatting will make you stronger and more explosive than squatting alone. That is the point I was making. Also, I would rather athletes compete in a vertical jump than when they have a shit ton of weight loaded onto their back.
1/19/13 7:52 AM
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ash1
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Leigh - What is the benefit to recruiting more RFD and FT? Jumping won't make you as strong or as explosive as squatting will. Lifting weights probably brings out more competitiveness in athletes.

Actually for many people they will get stronger or more more explosive with jumping and sprinting than with squatting. This is something that Charlie Francis discussed frequently.

While lifting weights might bring out more competitiveness, I have found that jump variations of all kinds bring out athleticism. As Wiggy said, box jumps require a certain level of explosiveness, hip mobility, coordination, timing, etc...

And with younger athletes allow for higher outputs which in turn allows for a greater training stimulus as opposed to squats when they cant use a lot of weight.
1/19/13 12:10 PM
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Leigh
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We'll have to agree to disagree Phone Post

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