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UnderGround Forums >> Mir vs Barnett, more accomplished?


1/16/13 12:48 PM
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MuchRespec'
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Death Beast - People should stop crediting Barnett for the win over Randy since he failed his test afterwards

And you believe Randy was 'clean'? Are you aware that fight took place before AC sanctioning? Or that Josh's results were the only one's made public? And that happened months later only after Josh failed to come to terms on a new contract?

This shit is noob sauce. I don't mean to single you out because all the newer UGers repeat this shit, I realize it's something you've read and take as gospel.

So, you know, believe what you will but I was VERY dialed-in at the time and you'll never convince me that Josh was the only person on that card back in '02 with a positive test...
1/16/13 1:32 PM
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Olive Garden Table For One
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Barnett gets added UG Lindland/Kang points for being to non Zuffa fighter for most of his career.

Mir beat better guys. That's all there is to it. 

But if they fought or will fight. Josh will win the slopbox match

1/16/13 1:45 PM
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MuchRespec'
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I'll never understand how Mir beat 'better guys'. Who?

The best you'll come up with is CroCop which nobody will argue was the same fighter at the time. They both have wins over Nogueria but again separated by a lot of time and deterioration of Nogi.

So who else? Can Christianson? Wes Sims? Who are these better fighters that Frank actually beat? Roy Nelson?
1/16/13 2:40 PM
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eljamaiquino
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Jons Forsberg - Barnett. The best fighter in his prime that Mir beat was Sylvia. Josh beat Nogueira and Randy.
Josh used steroids to beat Randy, has failed more roid tests than anyone else in MMA history. In fact his win over Randy caused the ACs to create the rule allowing them to change a win to a No Contest. Mir has finished both Nog & Crocop, both of whom beat Josh. Phone Post
1/16/13 2:42 PM
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eljamaiquino
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MuchRespec' -
Death Beast - People should stop crediting Barnett for the win over Randy since he failed his test afterwards

And you believe Randy was 'clean'? Are you aware that fight took place before AC sanctioning? Or that Josh's results were the only one's made public? And that happened months later only after Josh failed to come to terms on a new contract?

This shit is noob sauce. I don't mean to single you out because all the newer UGers repeat this shit, I realize it's something you've read and take as gospel.

So, you know, believe what you will but I was VERY dialed-in at the time and you'll never convince me that Josh was the only person on that card back in '02 with a positive test...
Whats your excuse for the other times Josh failed? Phone Post
1/16/13 3:01 PM
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chupecabre
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More accomplished = Mir

Better Fighter = ? Would very much like to see this fight.
1/16/13 3:09 PM
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Death Beast
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MuchRespec' - 
Death Beast - People should stop crediting Barnett for the win over Randy since he failed his test afterwards

And you believe Randy was 'clean'? Are you aware that fight took place before AC sanctioning? Or that Josh's results were the only one's made public? And that happened months later only after Josh failed to come to terms on a new contract?

This shit is noob sauce. I don't mean to single you out because all the newer UGers repeat this shit, I realize it's something you've read and take as gospel.

So, you know, believe what you will but I was VERY dialed-in at the time and you'll never convince me that Josh was the only person on that card back in '02 with a positive test...

Great another genius that thinks since I didn't join earlier, I couldn't have possibly have been watching back then. That's about as nub shit thinking as it gets.
Josh failed other tests since then. Randy never has. Maybe he used TRT but that's not officially cheating, which is what Barnett did.
He was stripped of the title over it wasn't he?
When Randy had a contract dispute and was airing the UFC's dirty laundry, why didn't they bust out his old positive test results if, like you're implying, he was pissing hot too.
Sorry guess I can only comment on stuff that happened since my join date though right?
1/16/13 3:36 PM
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orcus
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chokeyou - Barnett. There is no reasonable person who could debate this.

Which of Barnett's accomplishments eclipse Mir's?

1/16/13 3:36 PM
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Proteus The Invincible
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eljamaiquino - 
Jons Forsberg - Barnett. The best fighter in his prime that Mir beat was Sylvia. Josh beat Nogueira and Randy.
Josh used steroids to beat Randy, has failed more roid tests than anyone else in MMA history. In fact his win over Randy caused the ACs to create the rule allowing them to change a win to a No Contest. Mir has finished both Nog & Crocop, both of whom beat Josh. Phone Post

Mir finished far-past-prime Nog and Cro Cop, neither of whom beat Josh.
1/16/13 3:38 PM
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orcus
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eljamaiquino - 
Jons Forsberg - Barnett. The best fighter in his prime that Mir beat was Sylvia. Josh beat Nogueira and Randy.
Josh used steroids to beat Randy, has failed more roid tests than anyone else in MMA history. In fact his win over Randy caused the ACs to create the rule allowing them to change a win to a No Contest. Mir has finished both Nog & Crocop, both of whom beat Josh. Phone Post

Also, best Randy was 42-44 year old Randy, regardless of when his physical prime was. The Randy that smashed Gonzaga and manhandled Tim Sylvia would have smashed Barnett, roids or no roids.

And Barnett's win over Nog was hardly decisive, and he lost the rematch. 

1/16/13 3:48 PM
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Death Beast
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Edited: 01/16/13 3:51 PM
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It's actually a really close call so no point in people getting all worked up in either direction.
Barnett was caught cheating a bunch though so I'd give a tie to Mir.
1/16/13 3:56 PM
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Morgz
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I can't shame anyone tapping to strikes when Mirko is about to soccer kick your head into the 6th row

1/16/13 3:59 PM
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Beggsie
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Both won the UFC title and never got to defend it. I'd go with Mir, he has more quality wins. Phone Post
1/16/13 3:59 PM
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orcus
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Plus I think he was tapping from an eyepoke.

1/16/13 4:02 PM
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MuchRespec'
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LOL @ "I'm not a noob, you're a noob, noob!"

Somebody tell me when Josh popped hot the second time, honestly when did that happen?

Everybody knows about the Affliction event where the Zuffa sent Armando Garcia to ambush Barnett at his training camp way before the scheduled medicals.

Armando Garcia who went to work for Zuffa right afterwards but I'm sure that's just a coincedence and not some shady dealings amoung fight promoters. Certainly not the kind of people who would tamper with samples (which is what Barnett has said all along), but yeah let's believe what the Vegas gangsters say, right?

And I don't claim to know; in fact I don't give a shit, I just want to see the guy fight. And when I watched him fight Randy, he won. And as I stated, my opinion has always been that The Natural is anything but. And KR before him, I believe that guy was juiced to the gills, but never failed a test and was a UFC HW champ. Coleman too, never failed a test, so what?

The fact is nobody really knows the circumstances but everybody is very quick to parrot the Zuffa PR. This is a group of proven liars, time and again, yet everybody takes their word for it in this case... because why? Because Barnett rubs people the wrong way?

And what's funny is I realize I must seem like an uber Barnett fan. The guys has put on some pretty good fights but I don't rock his t-shirts or anything. Though I do rock an old TQ Randy shirt. Saku, Hendo, Wand, Fedor, Genki even and old Guy Mezger shirt (who I studied with in the late 90s). I'm really big fans of all those guys.

With Josh I just get worn out by hearing the same public hatchet job get repeated over and over again when the fact is; everybody's just repeating what they were told by a group of known liars.

And Randy was never in 'contract dispute', he retired and then sometime later un-retired and tried to get a fight with Fedor. Zuffa took him to court stating that he was still under contact with them and apparantly he was and so went back to the UFC and fought several more times.

Why would they not trash his repuation when he was still under contract and still one of their biggest PPV draws?

Versus a 20 year old Barnett who they expected to lose, but won, and happened to be on the last fight of his contact. The champion and a free agent who wanted more money than they wanted to pay him. So he goes to Japan for a fat payday and the UFC discredits him, strips him of the title, calls him a cheater since they put Randy in the very next title fight vs Ricco.

And what's funny is that I was rooting for Randy to beat both Josh and Ricco. Whatever, he dropped to 205 and had another epic run before eventually returning to HW and winning the title again (against another guy busted for Roids who the UFC treated amazingly different than Josh in the ever polarizing Tim Sylvia).
1/16/13 4:13 PM
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Morgz
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orcus - 

Plus I think he was tapping from an eyepoke.


I believe that is also correct

1/16/13 4:24 PM
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MuchRespec'
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Now that that's out of the way let's get back on topic.

The same year Josh beat Randy by stoppage, Frank was TKFO by Ian Freeman. At that point Josh had wins over Dan Severn (hall of famer), Sem Schilt (multiple kickboxing champ) and Bob Hoffman (known psycho and dangerous human).

You guys remember Bob Hoffman right, since you've all been watching since UFC 1 and shit? Josh also won the Superbrawl 13 HW tournament as an amateur (if you don't know about this, look it up. Seriously.)


Where as Frank's entire pre-wreck career was a string of wins over washed up HWs (because the real HW stars were making much better money in Japan - but all those guys weren't from Vegas and personal friends with the Zuffa brass). Petey from retirement. Gray Tank. MW Traven.

All that lead up to his biggest win; Tim Sylvia. Admit it; Frank is who he is because he outsmarted big Tim, got him to follow him to the mat and broke his arm over his cup.

Good on him. Then the wreck, then a string of losses to guys like PDP and Brandon Vera...

Since all that Josh has wins over Aleks, Sergei, UG favorite Hunt (who was 5-1 at the time). Also has a win over Big Nog (who was closer to his prime than the one in the UFC).

So like I said several pages back the entire arguement in favor of Frank is that he got beat up by Carwin and JDS and beat the ghost of Mirko.

Who Josh dropped 3 to (literally half his losses). And to this day I can't understand how he lost any of those fights but he did and at the time it didn't look so bad (because Cro was still a killer) but then he comes to the states, looks like shit and makes everybody he ever fought look worse for it because he's getting finished by guys like Gonzaga (who Randy smashed). And Frank Mir -lol.
1/16/13 4:28 PM
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knuckleballs
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They are both great HWs.

I thnk Mir has done more, due to better competition.
1/16/13 4:35 PM
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MuchRespec'
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But nobody yet has pointed out to any of Mir's wins that were actually better than any of Josh's.

It just comes down to Josh went 1-1 with the Pride version of Big Nog and Mir went 2-0 with the UFC version of Big Nog.

Who literally nobody will argue was the same fighter (and was quite frankly handling Frank until he got stupid and keylocked). But a good win for Frank to battle through that beating and secure the lock.

And Mirko, who's looked even worse than Nogi since leaving Pride.

So everybody's basically saying Frank due to org bias. Even though Josh fought in Pride which had the better HW roster at the time.

And btw this is exactly what I expected and said in my very first post.

Josh's record is better too. Man I'd love to see these guys fight...
1/16/13 4:47 PM
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FingerorMoon
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MuchRespec' - LOL @ "I'm not a noob, you're a noob, noob!"

Somebody tell me when Josh popped hot the second time, honestly when did that happen?

Everybody knows about the Affliction event where the Zuffa sent Armando Garcia to ambush Barnett at his training camp way before the scheduled medicals.

Armando Garcia who went to work for Zuffa right afterwards but I'm sure that's just a coincedence and not some shady dealings amoung fight promoters. Certainly not the kind of people who would tamper with samples (which is what Barnett has said all along), but yeah let's believe what the Vegas gangsters say, right?

And I don't claim to know; in fact I don't give a shit, I just want to see the guy fight. And when I watched him fight Randy, he won. And as I stated, my opinion has always been that The Natural is anything but. And KR before him, I believe that guy was juiced to the gills, but never failed a test and was a UFC HW champ. Coleman too, never failed a test, so what?

The fact is nobody really knows the circumstances but everybody is very quick to parrot the Zuffa PR. This is a group of proven liars, time and again, yet everybody takes their word for it in this case... because why? Because Barnett rubs people the wrong way?

And what's funny is I realize I must seem like an uber Barnett fan. The guys has put on some pretty good fights but I don't rock his t-shirts or anything. Though I do rock an old TQ Randy shirt. Saku, Hendo, Wand, Fedor, Genki even and old Guy Mezger shirt (who I studied with in the late 90s). I'm really big fans of all those guys.

With Josh I just get worn out by hearing the same public hatchet job get repeated over and over again when the fact is; everybody's just repeating what they were told by a group of known liars.

And Randy was never in 'contract dispute', he retired and then sometime later un-retired and tried to get a fight with Fedor. Zuffa took him to court stating that he was still under contact with them and apparantly he was and so went back to the UFC and fought several more times.

Why would they not trash his repuation when he was still under contract and still one of their biggest PPV draws?

Versus a 20 year old Barnett who they expected to lose, but won, and happened to be on the last fight of his contact. The champion and a free agent who wanted more money than they wanted to pay him. So he goes to Japan for a fat payday and the UFC discredits him, strips him of the title, calls him a cheater since they put Randy in the very next title fight vs Ricco.

And what's funny is that I was rooting for Randy to beat both Josh and Ricco. Whatever, he dropped to 205 and had another epic run before eventually returning to HW and winning the title again (against another guy busted for Roids who the UFC treated amazingly different than Josh in the ever polarizing Tim Sylvia).

3 drug test failures.

http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=4361589

On July 21, in a story that quickly has become to the MMA media what the moon landing was to Walter Cronkite, Josh Barnett was revealed to have failed his third drug test. In 2001, he raised eyebrows in Nevada when he tested positive for performance-enhancing agents before a fight with Bobby Hoffman. Because it was an informal survey of a possible drug problem in the sport, Barnett escaped penalty. In 2002, he was stripped and suspended after coming up hot for three different anabolic agents before a fight with Randy Couture. It would be Barnett's last fight in the States for nearly five years.


1/16/13 4:52 PM
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MuchRespec'
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Thank you! An 'informal survey' before the second Hoffman fight... and not actually against the rules yet...

But I stand by everyting else I've put on this thread.
1/16/13 5:37 PM
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MuchRespec'
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So what you are saying is a guy like, I dunno name one, Eddie Alvarez... Tatsuya Kawajiri... Joachim Hansen... will never be as good as, I dunno name one, Alex Caceres... Leonard Garcia... Nam Phan...

Due to org bias, right? Am I close?
1/16/13 5:41 PM
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MuchRespec'
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Let's just engage in some rampant speculation; who's made more money professionally do you guys suppose?

The guy who fought internationally for 15 yrs in addition to professional wrestling?

Or the guy who moonlights as a bouncer at a Vegas titty-bar?

One guy kicks it with famous actresses and the other with hookers.

Are these accomplishments? Or is it all about being Dana's boy?

I'm just asking questions here.
1/16/13 5:45 PM
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chokeyou
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MuchRespec' - Let's just engage in some rampant speculation; who's made more money professionally do you guys suppose?

The guy who fought internationally for 15 yrs in addition to professional wrestling?

Or the guy who moonlights as a bouncer at a Vegas titty-bar?

One guy kicks it with famous actresses and the other with hookers.

Are these accomplishments? Or is it all about being Dana's boy?

I'm just asking questions here.

lol
1/16/13 6:50 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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eljamaiquino - 
Jons Forsberg - Barnett. The best fighter in his prime that Mir beat was Sylvia. Josh beat Nogueira and Randy.
Josh used steroids to beat Randy, has failed more roid tests than anyone else in MMA history. In fact his win over Randy caused the ACs to create the rule allowing them to change a win to a No Contest. Mir has finished both Nog & Crocop, both of whom beat Josh. Phone Post

Randy does HGH by his own admssion and Mir's on TRT. They're all on something you're arguing a technicality. Barnett > Mir all day, those disagreeing didn't follow Barnett's career before strikeforce simple as that.

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