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UnderGround Forums >> Mir vs Barnett, more accomplished?


1/16/13 6:52 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Edited: 01/16/13 6:55 PM
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Also, best Randy was 42-44 year old Randy, regardless of when his physical prime was


that wasn't the best Randy that was Randy in the weakest division he's ever competed (2004-2007 UFC HW).
1/16/13 6:57 PM
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chokeyou
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knuckleballs - They are both great HWs.

I thnk Mir has done more, due to better competition.

PRIDE FIGHTING CHAMPIONSHIP says...

"YOU ARE A NOOB!!!!!"
1/17/13 2:47 AM
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Wasa-B
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orcus - 
eljamaiquino - 
Jons Forsberg - Barnett. The best fighter in his prime that Mir beat was Sylvia. Josh beat Nogueira and Randy.
Josh used steroids to beat Randy, has failed more roid tests than anyone else in MMA history. In fact his win over Randy caused the ACs to create the rule allowing them to change a win to a No Contest. Mir has finished both Nog & Crocop, both of whom beat Josh. Phone Post

Also, best Randy was 42-44 year old Randy, regardless of when his physical prime was. The Randy that smashed Gonzaga and manhandled Tim Sylvia would have smashed Barnett, roids or no roids.

And Barnett's win over Nog was hardly decisive, and he lost the rematch. 


The Randy that smashed Gonzaga pho sho but I think Tim was pretty hurt vs Randy as much as i love Randy.

The Randy that beat Tito and Chuck is also prime Handy.
1/17/13 3:27 AM
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orcus
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"But nobody yet has pointed out to any of Mir's wins that were actually better than any of Josh's. It just comes down to Josh went 1-1 with the Pride version of Big Nog and Mir went 2-0 with the UFC version of Big Nog."

It seems more like you're discussing who is better rather than who has accomplished more.

Josh's biggest accomplishments are winning the UFC title and promptly being stripped for roiding, and winning a controversial split decision over #3 ranked Nog (who beat him unanimously in the rematch). 

Mir's biggest accomplishments are snapping a roiding Tim Sylvia's arm in 30 seconds for the UFC title, putting the first loss on Tim's 16-0 record (almost all of those wins by KO); being the first guy ever to KO #2 ranked Nogueira for the interim title; being the only guy ever to submit Nogueira (by snapping his arm); and if you want to go back that far, yet another arm-snapping, this one over ADCC and Mundials champion Roberto Traven. His sub wins are more stunning -- literally Barnett's best sub performance is almost-but-not-quite kneebarring Nog -- and he twice won a UFC title by walking through the beltholder in under a round.

Even comparing KOs they are about even with Barnett KOing a shot Rizzo while Mir KO'd a shot Crocop.

Barnett is a much more consistent fighter and I think he would beat Mir, but as far as accomplishments go all he has is being more consistent. 

"The Randy that beat Tito and Chuck is also prime Handy."

Yeah, I just wanted to highlight the times he manhandled really big guys, one of them an exceptional grappler himself.

1/17/13 3:38 PM
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MuchRespec'
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Josh also won the open weight KoP title and a BJJ world title. And Superbrawl 13, that was extremely impressive at the time versus that field (included several future UFC HWs and a future UFC HW champ in addition to Josh).

I consider those accomplishments (though i realize many on this board these days will not - because they're noobs lol). And he was a two-time Grand Prix finalist (Pride and Strikeforce).

That 2006 Pride GP roster eclipsed the HW pool in the UFC in '06 (the year Frank lost to both Vera and PDP). That year big Tim defended his title against Jeff Monson (and AA of course), yet Monson isn't even considered a 'good' win for Josh (18 months later).

The Strikeforce GP wasn't Carwin, Cain and Dos Santos granted but Bigfoot, Fedor, Kharitonov, Werdum and 'Reem (not even to mention Josh himself and of course Cormier) was a stacked tournament by any standards. The UFC agreed enough to sign half of them.

They may have happened outside the UFC but those tournaments were legit. Josh didn't win either but making the finals in both, IMO that's accomplishment.

And I'm not disagreeing that this discussion is veering all over the place; nobody's really defined 'accomplishment' and mostly I'm just responding to posts.

And challenging the notion that anything outside the UFC is shit, at HW that's pretty much never been the case until right now (that there's really nothign left).

And that entire notion (again IMO) really revolves around K-1 killer CroCop being an animal in Japan and then showing up in the UFC in '07 looking nothing short of disinterested.

My stance is this; Josh has a better record (more wins for the same amount of losses), more titles and more quality wins on his record. Also his losses aren't as bad as Frank's (Josh's losses are to better fighters than Frank's losses).

I'm just not seeing the arguement that Frank has 'better wins' or has competed against 'better competition', as far as I'm concerned neither is true. And I'm not seeing anybody provide any evidence to support either assertion.

Other than CroCop and Nogi, who (much like Josh and Frank at this point IMO) were on the decline by the time they made it to the UFC (and even so Nogi won the HW strap too).

I also disagree that the Randy who lost to Barnett wasn't at his best, that was the Randy that beat Vitor and Pedro. I don't disagree that Randy's run at LHW was a lot of fun to watch but that HW run beating Gonzaga and broke-back-Timmay (a run that also included a loss to Nogi) I don't consider more impressive than his first UFC title.

LOL all arguements lead back to Big Nog...
1/17/13 3:53 PM
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Morgz
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Just curious...which BJJ world title did Josh win?

I remember he entered (and won) a gi only tournament about 2 years ago...I can't remeber what it was, but for somre reason I was thinkint it was a grappler's quest event.  I also believe Paulson promoted him to black belt shortly after.   Not being a dick here, I really don't know about the BJJ world title he won...can you fill me in?  Was it an IBJJF worlds at some point?

 

Also...if we are going to include non MMA accoplishments:  Mir was a high school state champion wrestler.  Also a blue belt IBJJF Pans champ.

Josh is an accomplished Pro Wrestler.  I don't suppose there any "championships" that are earned there, but he is definitly a legit Pro Wrestling Performer, and that is no joke.

1/17/13 4:10 PM
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Olive Garden Table For One
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Frank Mir turned Tim Sylvia from a monster rampaging through the UFC to a fast tapping, cautious fighter for the rest of his career. The post-Mir Sylvia is a shell of the man Frank snapped the fight out of. 

 

1/17/13 4:43 PM
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FullyLoadedFists
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MuchRespec' - Josh also won the open weight KoP title and a BJJ world title. And Superbrawl 13, that was extremely impressive at the time versus that field (included several future UFC HWs and a future UFC HW champ in addition to Josh).

I consider those accomplishments (though i realize many on this board these days will not - because they're noobs lol). And he was a two-time Grand Prix finalist (Pride and Strikeforce).

That 2006 Pride GP roster eclipsed the HW pool in the UFC in '06 (the year Frank lost to both Vera and PDP). That year big Tim defended his title against Jeff Monson (and AA of course), yet Monson isn't even considered a 'good' win for Josh (18 months later).

The Strikeforce GP wasn't Carwin, Cain and Dos Santos granted but Bigfoot, Fedor, Kharitonov, Werdum and 'Reem (not even to mention Josh himself and of course Cormier) was a stacked tournament by any standards. The UFC agreed enough to sign half of them.

They may have happened outside the UFC but those tournaments were legit. Josh didn't win either but making the finals in both, IMO that's accomplishment.

And I'm not disagreeing that this discussion is veering all over the place; nobody's really defined 'accomplishment' and mostly I'm just responding to posts.

And challenging the notion that anything outside the UFC is shit, at HW that's pretty much never been the case until right now (that there's really nothign left).

And that entire notion (again IMO) really revolves around K-1 killer CroCop being an animal in Japan and then showing up in the UFC in '07 looking nothing short of disinterested.

My stance is this; Josh has a better record (more wins for the same amount of losses), more titles and more quality wins on his record. Also his losses aren't as bad as Frank's (Josh's losses are to better fighters than Frank's losses).

I'm just not seeing the arguement that Frank has 'better wins' or has competed against 'better competition', as far as I'm concerned neither is true. And I'm not seeing anybody provide any evidence to support either assertion.

Other than CroCop and Nogi, who (much like Josh and Frank at this point IMO) were on the decline by the time they made it to the UFC (and even so Nogi won the HW strap too).

I also disagree that the Randy who lost to Barnett wasn't at his best, that was the Randy that beat Vitor and Pedro. I don't disagree that Randy's run at LHW was a lot of fun to watch but that HW run beating Gonzaga and broke-back-Timmay (a run that also included a loss to Nogi) I don't consider more impressive than his first UFC title.

LOL all arguements lead back to Big Nog...
THIS! Phone Post
1/17/13 5:10 PM
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MuchRespec'
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Good stuff Morgz, I didn't know Frank had even wrestled, I'm assuming state champ in Nevada? Not exactly California or Iowa or Oklahoma but I agree it's an accomplishment.

A blue belt pan am title... I'm not a bjj guy but that doesn't sound terribly impressive, what with different standards for promotion and all the politics in bjj. But it definitely *is* an accomplishment, just not sure how big.

But pro-wrestling i have the hardest time with. I recognize that it's tough as hell but it's still kinda bogus (just my opinion). But in fairness i say that because I just don't find it very entertaining, I've no doubt Josh has made a huge pile of money while entertaining millions of people...

And honestly I don't know anything about BJJ competition (I find it boring too if I'm being honest), but Josh winning some 'world' title was reported here on the UG so I'm sure somebody knows. In all honestly you could tell me it was this or that title and I wouldn't know the difference.

Honestly I'm just playing devil's advocate in a lot of respects here. All I *really* want is to see Frank and Josh fight in the cage, that's real talk.

I agree with Loopz that Big Tim wasn't the same after getting his arm snapped. But I do think that getting heel-hooked by Arlovski and ultimately actually getting the belt back were also factors in Tim becoming the 'wall-n-stall' phenomenon.
1/17/13 5:26 PM
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Olive Garden Table For One
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The Arlovski leglock was the first example of Timid Tim. The Sylvia that fought Mir wanted to fight on with a broken arm, and Herb saved him from himself. Fast forward to the Arlovski and Nog fights and Tim was tapping as soon as he smelled the sub coming. 

There has never been a time where I would take Mir head to head over Barnett. Josh has better striking, wrestling and most importantly: conditioning. I'll call subs and strength/power even. Josh is a bit quicker.

It would probably be a dull fight. Frank wouldn't be able to get Josh to the ground and would be outstruck. Josh wouldn't need to offensive wrestle. He could just pick Mir apart until Frank's tank went to E

1/17/13 5:32 PM
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TAC
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I was helping a friend of mine move about a year ago. We found his old brackets from the 1998 High School Nationals (wrestling). Sure enough, Francis Mir was on there. The brackets weren't filled out so I don't know how he did. My friend went 3-2 I think. Opposite side of the bracket from Mir.

Just thought I'd throw that out since you didn't know Mir wrestled
1/17/13 5:43 PM
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TheRaider
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The guy with the better ushiro-geri (Barnett).
1/17/13 5:46 PM
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And Wagners Cut
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Joshua J King - Mir has had a fucking rough career. The kind not many get back on top during. He did. That dude got his neck stomped on,his leg snapped,snapped Timmy's arm,got dinosaur hog fucked by that dinosaur hog of man Lesnar,after he tapped him out while he was getting dinosaur hog fucked by Lesnar the first time,punched Cup Chiek clear across the cage and dashed over to throw 2 strikes before realizing to throw on a choke in like 11.4 seconds,CinderBlock fist wouldn't trade with him in the center of the cage so he got the front and back of his head beat in the clinch with some of the largest and simultaneously fastest hands I've ever seen in Shane Carwin,TKO staph Nog and got beat up by nog only to engage in some of the most beautiful BJJ transitions ive ever seen in a heavyweight match and snap Big Nog's arm like he was opening a pickle jar and then it took the phenom JDS 2 rounds to TKO a still very much no ko'd Mir,when his fanboys here were debating the order In which he was to decapitate the rest of the UFC HW division.

Yeah,Mir is not a Legend. Whatevs. Phone Post
Great post Phone Post
1/17/13 6:47 PM
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KingD87
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Obviously Mir. Phone Post

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