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UnderGround Forums >> Disappointed Pros are quiet about TLI


1/20/13 12:15 AM
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rundymc
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Wait... are we talking pros as in ALL pros?! As opposed to pros connected to Lloyd?

That's hilarious. Come on guys. While the case is fucked up, it isn't important news to most people. Your average reaction on hearing Irvin has a past rape case is "Oh really? And he hasn't put out a statement in his defense? That's fucked. Guess I'm not hot on TLI anymore."

While Lloyd is a big figure in the BJJ community, he just isn't a very important person otherwise. You hear his name come out of Joe Rogan's mouth when a BETA guy fights, and that's pretty much the extent of it.

Yes, it's good to get the word out on a rapist who's managed to make a lot of money in the martial arts while hiding his past. But let's not expect every high profile guy in the same industry as him to speak out on it.

Btw Tom, saw you walking past the Starbucks yesterday. I thought I was seeing shit, fucking Tom Lawlor walking around Singapore, had to google you lol. Get a polo T that fits man ;)
1/20/13 12:28 AM
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Tom Lawlor
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rundymc - Wait... are we talking pros as in ALL pros?! As opposed to pros connected to Lloyd?

That's hilarious. Come on guys. While the case is fucked up, it isn't important news to most people. Your average reaction on hearing Irvin has a past rape case is "Oh really? And he hasn't put out a statement in his defense? That's fucked. Guess I'm not hot on TLI anymore."

While Lloyd is a big figure in the BJJ community, he just isn't a very important person otherwise. You hear his name come out of Joe Rogan's mouth when a BETA guy fights, and that's pretty much the extent of it.

Yes, it's good to get the word out on a rapist who's managed to make a lot of money in the martial arts while hiding his past. But let's not expect every high profile guy in the same industry as him to speak out on it.

Btw Tom, saw you walking past the Starbucks yesterday. I thought I was seeing shit, fucking Tom Lawlor walking around Singapore, had to google you lol. Get a polo T that fits man ;)

it was a t-shirt man! and the XL's here are like a boys large in the U.S., oh yeah plus I was probably wearing a backpack that was pulling the shirt tighter!

 

 

1/20/13 1:41 AM
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rundymc
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Tom Lawlor - 
rundymc - Wait... are we talking pros as in ALL pros?! As opposed to pros connected to Lloyd?

That's hilarious. Come on guys. While the case is fucked up, it isn't important news to most people. Your average reaction on hearing Irvin has a past rape case is "Oh really? And he hasn't put out a statement in his defense? That's fucked. Guess I'm not hot on TLI anymore."

While Lloyd is a big figure in the BJJ community, he just isn't a very important person otherwise. You hear his name come out of Joe Rogan's mouth when a BETA guy fights, and that's pretty much the extent of it.

Yes, it's good to get the word out on a rapist who's managed to make a lot of money in the martial arts while hiding his past. But let's not expect every high profile guy in the same industry as him to speak out on it.

Btw Tom, saw you walking past the Starbucks yesterday. I thought I was seeing shit, fucking Tom Lawlor walking around Singapore, had to google you lol. Get a polo T that fits man ;)

it was a t-shirt man! and the XL's here are like a boys large in the U.S., oh yeah plus I was probably wearing a backpack that was pulling the shirt tighter!

 

 


lol, you're right, there was a backpack. Fine you're excused for that fashion mis-step. Enjoy Singapore, hope you can find something interesting to do past training with all this rain the last few days.
1/20/13 1:52 AM
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Synado
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Tom Lawlor - 
Smith1234 - I get it that people say not all fighters should speak out against this. But neither do random posters have to speak out against it.

Yet we are. There are tons of people livid about the Ohio HS football team, but specific to this thread there are a ton of us livid at Lloyd and Avellan for that matter.

Pro fighters should be speaking out against this not because they are pro fighters. But because they are human beings like the rest of us.

The participation rate of pros is close to zero. Fans much higher. Why? Phone Post
Is the participation rate really that high? There are an infinite number of posters on the UG who aren't fighters compared to the ones that are. You guys act like every UFC fighter is a member of this board and peruses the internet looking for the best chance to speak out against Lloyd Irvin.

The truth is most UFC fighters don't come on this board because of attitudes like this, questioning fighters morality because they aren't speaking out on a situation in which its possible they don't know all the facts. The only people who maybe you should be looking for statements from are the ones who are directly in contact with TLI. Even then, those people don't owe you anything in the way of an explanation if they don't want to give one. Phone Post

Making valid points will get you nowhere here Mr. Lawlor!
1/20/13 3:48 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Brian J DSouza - 

Winston Wolf, are you hoping to get a job out of Zuffa from this thread? Is that where your anger is coming from?

DojoJay, have you seen how Tom Callos and Chloe were attacked by many people for speaking out? Do you think that the UFC fighters I cited (Frank Shamrock and Ronda Rousey) don't support the victims of sexual abuse? 

There are a lot of books written about abuse in the library, and many experts within their respective fields. Instead of lashing out on an internet thread, those who are concerned--really concerned--can spend months or years learning and understanding the issues, and applying themselves in useful ways to bring about change.

Trying to recruit (or in this case, shame) a (minor, in the case of most UFC fighters) celebrity into a "cause of the minute" will not have results in the short-term or long-term. 


no i gave up hope of a Zuffa job years ago.My anger is coming from people trying to rationalize a rapist piece of shit who admitted to wanting to rape a 17 year old student of his.Now his students raped another girl and bragged about it. and u gotta be kdding Tom looks like a hero from his posts People adress him as Mr. out of respect
1/20/13 3:50 AM
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Winston Wolf
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BigSleep - 
Brian J DSouza - 

Winston Wolf, are you hoping to get a job out of Zuffa from this thread? Is that where your anger is coming from?

DojoJay, have you seen how Tom Callos and Chloe were attacked by many people for speaking out? Do you think that the UFC fighters I cited (Frank Shamrock and Ronda Rousey) don't support the victims of sexual abuse? 

There are a lot of books written about abuse in the library, and many experts within their respective fields. Instead of lashing out on an internet thread, those who are concerned--really concerned--can spend months or years learning and understanding the issues, and applying themselves in useful ways to bring about change.

Trying to recruit (or in this case, shame) a (minor, in the case of most UFC fighters) celebrity into a "cause of the minute" will not have results in the short-term or long-term. 


Off base all the way through this post. Weird question to ask WW. Peopl can still read books and do other things AND ask fighters to speak out.

Recruiting others to speak out is a great way to get results/attention/action in both the short term and the long term.

The question for you is what are you trying to achieve here?

sounds to me u want to sweep this scumbag under the rug Sounds to me like ur sticking up for him
1/20/13 4:04 AM
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effinggoof
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If anyone should speak out about pedo priests, it's catholics.

If anyone should have spoken out about Sandusky, it was the Penn State people.

Honest cops should be the first to speak out against dirty cops.

Likewise, if anyone should speak out against the rapist Lloyd Irvin, it's the grappling and MMA community.

I would like to personally thank the greennamers like Helwig and Rev John ( sorry to those others I missed) who have conspicuously spoken out against TLI.

1/20/13 4:12 AM
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Winston Wolf
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effinggoof - If anyone should speak out about pedo priests, it's catholics.

If anyone should have spoken out about Sandusky, it was the Penn State people.

Honest cops should be the first to speak out against dirty cops.

Likewise, if anyone should speak out against the rapist Lloyd Irvin, it's the grappling and MMA community.

I would like to personally thank the greennamers like Helwig and Rev John ( sorry to those others I missed) who have conspicuously spoken out against TLI.


agreed
1/20/13 4:21 AM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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Edited: 01/20/13 4:22 AM
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I don't hold anyone not connected to Too Limp Irvin to be accountable for speaking out in this situation.  Tom Lawlor is a class act, and a solid person, from what I've seen of his postings and read about him.  I'm grateful that he and other pro-fighters, past/present/future, take the time to interact with fans of the sport.

I also understand that most of those who are officially affiliated with "Master" Irvin have hitched their horse to his wagon (although they probably feel like they've hitched their wagon to his horse, that's how MLM's work) and feel they have to much too lose by publicly separating.  I applaud BETA Academy, it takes real courage to stand up and make a public severance.

Everyone else fears that by publicly separating or denouncing TLI, they will draw attention to the fact that they WERE associated with TLI.  They'd much rather slip quietly out the back and forget they ever knew him.  We also need to consider that coming from a competitive team or an official organization, it would give "Master" Irvin an opportunity to claim that this is a witch-hunt motivated by jealousy or other forms of self-interest.

That's why I think anyone who has been publicly associated with Too Limp Irvin needs to stand up and make their opinion heard, but those who are part of the larger BJJ community should speak with their feet and their pocketbooks.  

I'm still holding out faith in David Avellan and Leo Dalla, for example.  They need to stand up for what's morally correct in this circumstance if they want to retain the respect of the BJJ community, a community that they've worked so hard to build.  Otherwise, they are silently agreeing with "Master" Irvin's behavior in attempting to increase his revenue through the immoral activities in his past.

"Silence becomes cowardice when the occassion demands speaking out the whole truth and acting accordingly"  - Mohandas Gandhi

1/20/13 5:07 AM
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Out To Lunch
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Tom Lawlor - 
Smith1234 - I get it that people say not all fighters should speak out against this. But neither do random posters have to speak out against it.

Yet we are. There are tons of people livid about the Ohio HS football team, but specific to this thread there are a ton of us livid at Lloyd and Avellan for that matter.

Pro fighters should be speaking out against this not because they are pro fighters. But because they are human beings like the rest of us.

The participation rate of pros is close to zero. Fans much higher. Why? Phone Post
Is the participation rate really that high? There are an infinite number of posters on the UG who aren't fighters compared to the ones that are. You guys act like every UFC fighter is a member of this board and peruses the internet looking for the best chance to speak out against Lloyd Irvin.

The truth is most UFC fighters don't come on this board because of attitudes like this, questioning fighters morality because they aren't speaking out on a situation in which its possible they don't know all the facts. The only people who maybe you should be looking for statements from are the ones who are directly in contact with TLI. Even then, those people don't owe you anything in the way of an explanation if they don't want to give one. Phone Post

+1
1/20/13 5:26 AM
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Elevate
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Forrest Gimp - 
Tom Lawlor -  Rape is a terrible offense and if it was indeed a gang rape attempt then Lloyd screwed up bigtime.
There you happy? Not quite sure what you are trying to accomplish but if just because someone is involved in the same sport as someone else doesn't mean everyone in that sport needs to comment on the matter.

By your logic whenever a McDonalds worker rapes someone then every McDonalds worker should make a statement on it.

I think we can agree almost no fighter is supporting rape just because they haven't been blasting TLi on twitter/fb/UG/etc Phone Post

In this particular case, the "CEO of McDonald's" wanted to particate in a gang-rape (did participate according to the victim). Two top representatives high up in the "McDonald's hierarchy" were caught on security-camera raping a fellow student lower down in the "McDonald's hierarchy". In addition, a "McDonald's manager" said the 1990 victim was probably a dirty whore that got a train run on her, and another evangelist Avellan has come off less than spectacular. So I wouldn't call them regular "McDonald's workers". In fact, some of them are rather prominent figures in a sport. If that doesn't require some form of counter-balance, I don't know what does - thank god for Gracies and Ryan Hall.

No, that's not true. Comparing Lloyd to the CEO of McDonalds would be saying that Lloyd is the CEO of MMA.

A better example would be everything you said scaled down to a single McDonalds building in Maryland and then people like Winston Wolf are expecting McDonalds managers/workers from across the US to speak out against that one building.

1/20/13 5:29 AM
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Elevate
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Edited: 01/20/13 5:31 AM
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<blockquote>Winston Wolf - <blockquote>Brian J DSouza - <p><br /> <strong>Winston Wolf,</strong> are you hoping to get a job out of Zuffa from this thread? Is that where your anger is coming from?</p><br /><p><br /> <strong>DojoJay,</strong> have you seen how Tom Callos and Chloe were attacked by many people for speaking out? Do you think that the UFC fighters I cited (Frank Shamrock and Ronda Rousey) don't support the victims of sexual abuse? </p><br /><p><br /> There are a lot of books written about abuse in the library, and many experts within their respective fields. Instead of lashing out on an internet thread, those who are concerned--really concerned--can spend months or years learning and understanding the issues, and applying themselves in useful ways to bring about change.</p><br /><p><br /> Trying to recruit (or in this case, shame) a (minor, in the case of most UFC fighters) celebrity into a "cause of the minute" will not have results in the short-term or long-term. </p></blockquote><br />no i gave up hope of a Zuffa job years ago.My anger is coming from people trying to rationalize a rapist piece of shit who admitted to wanting to rape a 17 year old student of his.Now his students raped another girl and bragged about it. and u gotta be kdding Tom looks like a hero from his posts People adress him as Mr. out of respect</blockquote><br />


A student of his? She was a fellow college student and he was still a college student.

Have you actually looked into the whole thing or are you just talking out of your ass?
1/20/13 5:41 AM
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MurdochIRL
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Jared Weiner and Wilson Reis have decided to dissolve BJJ United's relationship with TLI. I hope other affiliate schools are also discussing if they want to support Lloyd and his business practices. Ryan's letter is priceless in this regard.

It will be interesting to see how fighter's sponsors and the "MMA millionaire" marketing group responds to this scandal or should i say scadals.

Much respect to Tom Callos, Ryan Hall, the Gracie Boys, Hillary Williams, Jared and Wilson and many more who have taken to social media to discuss this and bigger issues in the community. Phone Post
1/20/13 5:52 AM
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Arecsa
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Lack of comments from anybody in the UFC who are normally outspoken on everything (Joe, Dana etc) is disappointing. Rape jokes are not on but an actual rape is fine I guess.
1/20/13 5:55 AM
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Tom Lawlor
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anyone know what this article means? I did a quick internet search to try to find out more...

 

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=2&xmldoc=19921276414SE2d862_11237.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006&SizeDisp=7

1/20/13 5:57 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Elevate - <blockquote>Winston Wolf - <blockquote>Brian J DSouza - <p><br /> <strong>Winston Wolf,</strong> are you hoping to get a job out of Zuffa from this thread? Is that where your anger is coming from?</p><br /><p><br /> <strong>DojoJay,</strong> have you seen how Tom Callos and Chloe were attacked by many people for speaking out? Do you think that the UFC fighters I cited (Frank Shamrock and Ronda Rousey) don't support the victims of sexual abuse? </p><br /><p><br /> There are a lot of books written about abuse in the library, and many experts within their respective fields. Instead of lashing out on an internet thread, those who are concerned--really concerned--can spend months or years learning and understanding the issues, and applying themselves in useful ways to bring about change.</p><br /><p><br /> Trying to recruit (or in this case, shame) a (minor, in the case of most UFC fighters) celebrity into a "cause of the minute" will not have results in the short-term or long-term. </p></blockquote><br />no i gave up hope of a Zuffa job years ago.My anger is coming from people trying to rationalize a rapist piece of shit who admitted to wanting to rape a 17 year old student of his.Now his students raped another girl and bragged about it. and u gotta be kdding Tom looks like a hero from his posts People adress him as Mr. out of respect</blockquote><br />


A student of his? She was a fellow college student and he was still a college student.

Have you actually looked into the whole thing or are you just talking out of your ass?

the girl raped NYE was his student raped by other students
1/20/13 6:08 AM
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Forrest Gimp
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Elevate - 
Forrest Gimp - 
Tom Lawlor -  Rape is a terrible offense and if it was indeed a gang rape attempt then Lloyd screwed up bigtime.
There you happy? Not quite sure what you are trying to accomplish but if just because someone is involved in the same sport as someone else doesn't mean everyone in that sport needs to comment on the matter.

By your logic whenever a McDonalds worker rapes someone then every McDonalds worker should make a statement on it.

I think we can agree almost no fighter is supporting rape just because they haven't been blasting TLi on twitter/fb/UG/etc Phone Post

In this particular case, the "CEO of McDonald's" wanted to particate in a gang-rape (did participate according to the victim). Two top representatives high up in the "McDonald's hierarchy" were caught on security-camera raping a fellow student lower down in the "McDonald's hierarchy". In addition, a "McDonald's manager" said the 1990 victim was probably a dirty whore that got a train run on her, and another evangelist Avellan has come off less than spectacular. So I wouldn't call them regular "McDonald's workers". In fact, some of them are rather prominent figures in a sport. If that doesn't require some form of counter-balance, I don't know what does - thank god for Gracies and Ryan Hall.

No, that's not true. Comparing Lloyd to the CEO of McDonalds would be saying that Lloyd is the CEO of MMA.

A better example would be everything you said scaled down to a single McDonalds building in Maryland and then people like Winston Wolf are expecting McDonalds managers/workers from across the US to speak out against that one building.


That is not a better example.
1/20/13 6:37 AM
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Forrest Gimp
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Tom Lawlor - 

anyone know what this article means? I did a quick internet search to try to find out more...

 

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=2&xmldoc=19921276414SE2d862_11237.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006&SizeDisp=7


Probably got as much from it as you did - her "big brother" (mentor or whatever?) from school that was with her in the rape-apartment present during the rape, says he was hearing no screams or cries, came out and testified she'd told him she was raped by several men but couldn't remember what Gatling had to do with it. And a bunch of legal maneuvers I don't understand. I'd like to know if big brother took her to the "party", who were at the party, and if big brother knows Gatling from before. And what all that legal stuff means.
1/20/13 6:41 AM
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Tom Lawlor
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By reading it, I don't think her "big brother" was there, but that she confided in him later that she didn't know what Gatling had to do with it. 

1/20/13 6:54 AM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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Tom Lawlor - 

By reading it, I don't think her "big brother" was there, but that she confided in him later that she didn't know what Gatling had to do with it. 


"The defense proffered that Neighbors would also testify that, although he was present at the time of the alleged rapes, he did not hear screams or crying."
1/20/13 8:46 AM
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Tom Lawlor
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Gokudamus stole my name -
Tom Lawlor - 

By reading it, I don't think her "big brother" was there, but that she confided in him later that she didn't know what Gatling had to do with it. 


"The defense proffered that Neighbors would also testify that, although he was present at the time of the alleged rapes, he did not hear screams or crying."
Whoops, I stand corrected. Interesting that he was her "big brother", was there and didn't stop it, nor did he stand trial for anything it seems. Not sure what, if anything, it adds or detracts. Phone Post
1/20/13 8:48 AM
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Smith1234
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effinggoof - If anyone should speak out about pedo priests, it's catholics.

If anyone should have spoken out about Sandusky, it was the Penn State people.

Honest cops should be the first to speak out against dirty cops.

Likewise, if anyone should speak out against the rapist Lloyd Irvin, it's the grappling and MMA community.

I would like to personally thank the greennamers like Helwig and Rev John ( sorry to those others I missed) who have conspicuously spoken out against TLI.


Well said

1/20/13 9:07 AM
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Brian J DSouza
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Edited: 01/20/13 9:17 AM
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BigSleep -

Recruiting others to speak out is a great way to get results/attention/action in both the short term and the long term.

The question for you is what are you trying to achieve here?

 

You think rapists are going to stop terrorizing others because someone (semi) famous makes a public announcment? What UFC fighter Ronda Rousey did had a DIRECT effect because she took DIRECT action against someone who was a known abuser/molester.

There's a lot of social factors, the legal system, the support system for victims, and yes, the way the media reports/treats victims.

Those are the issues where someone--even anonymous internet posters--could have an effect if they put in actual work.

Now you're back to attacking random people like a lynch mob, without really thinking about anything nor are you solving any issue or problem that caused the rapes in the first place.

Nowhere on these forums or anywhere else do I defend Lloyd Irvin. I ask him to come out and admit responsibility for what happened in 1989. You can write into your local newspaper, post on Bullshido.com (about fake martial artists), volunteer at your local shelter (where a lot of victims end up, sadly) and do many other things.

Pro fighters aren't supermen or superwomen. They have their own problems. In the next UFC, around 50% of the fighters will lose. The rest, you should know about...

Also, edited to add that I can think of at least ONE pro MMA fighter who will be giving a self-defense seminar free to women. So some pro MMA fighters have been trying to help in a constructive way.

 

1/20/13 9:26 AM
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Winston Wolf
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ur not defending him but ur here trying to get us to stop He deserves the lynch mob who the hell u kidding.what random people we attacking ? its Lloyd and his team of rapists ( not entire team but select few scumbags ) How bout this ? I dont need u to post on this thread.Honestly u sound like your trying to rationalize what he did
1/20/13 9:27 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Edited: 01/20/13 10:16 AM
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Tom glad to see u post here.I dont agree with everything you said but respect your opinion which holds more weight than mine

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