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UnderGround Forums >> Cant Stomach Lentz/Nunes, why watch MMA?


1/20/13 2:55 PM
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Wasa-B
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Midway into the 2nd round and Lentz is all over Nunes and dominating him. Everytime anyone dominates a flashy striker with grappling, the fucking "blanket," "wrestlefucking," yada calls come out. Well, seriously, why are you watching MMA if you cannot stomach grappling? Why are you forgetting that grappling is the foundation of MMA?

So Lentz didnt finish Nunes with a flying armbar or rolling omoplata. Why, in MMA, do we expect such flashy finishes all the time? They dont happen in all of the individual combat sports like BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, judo, etc. 360 reverse dunks dont happen every 5 min in the NBA. Grand slams dont happen every game in MLB. End to end rushes dont happen much in NFL. What is it about MMA where the fans simply cannot watch and appreciate a normal MMA bout?

Like, if you just wanna watch striking, why not watch boxing or kickboxing where grappling is not allowed? That question also gets thrown around a lot too but its a legit question: if you dont like to watch grappling, why not watch something where there is no grappling?

Many of you are also criticizing Lentz for not finishing Nunes. Well, what i saw was td after td, all sorts of positional advances and attempts from Lentz and all sorts of GNP where he got position: full guard, half guard, taking the back, etc, etc. You do know that it aint exactly a cake walk to finish a Nova Uniao guy on the ground cuz they pretty good with BJJ right?

Lentz's performance was MMA grappling 101.
1/20/13 2:56 PM
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Wasa-B
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I like Nunes btw, but he trains with Aldo and it makes you appreciate a guy like Aldo that much more - Aldo is simply one of the best in the sport. But Nunes knows what has to be done to defend tds, stay out of the clinch and get back to his feet. He simply could not do that. That is on him.
1/20/13 2:58 PM
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quick
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You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw.
1/20/13 3:00 PM
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GriffinQ
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Agreed completely

I LIKE watching performances like that. They don't have super tense moments or crazy techniques, but one person dominating another and doing everything they can to break them... It's a big part of why I love combat sports Phone Post
1/20/13 3:02 PM
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Wasa-B
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quick - You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw.

I can appreciate that view as well which is why i used "stomach" and not so much "cant find Lentz exciting...." Exciting is in the eye of the beholder, but what Lentz did is fundamental MMA.

Everyone like those who let it all hang but its unrealistic to expect every fighter to be like that. Im sure you an appreciate teams or athletes in other sports who arent completely like that (there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it).
1/20/13 3:02 PM
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mrgoodarmbar
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as long as they're not using it to stall...
1/20/13 3:03 PM
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Wasa-B
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mrgoodarmbar - as long as they're not using it to stall...

Thats the thing though, most "fans" still do not understand, just because you have someone on the ground does not mean you should automatically finish them within a few minutes. People have no patience in watching the ground game. And Lentz was working all the way all day - all over Nunes in position and GNP.

And again, do people really think dominating a Nova Uniao guy on the ground is a cake?
1/20/13 3:34 PM
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orcus
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"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 

1/20/13 3:41 PM
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Wasa-B
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orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....
1/20/13 3:42 PM
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Wasa-B
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Also, Nunez came out of r1 completely drained and demoralized....how was Lents not doing something right there?
1/20/13 3:45 PM
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Wasa-B
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Enjoyed Lentz making the Brazilian crowd boo too....too bad ur boy couldn't stop pretty much anything Lentz was doing
1/20/13 3:49 PM
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Wasa-B
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Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-)

I dont necessarily love watching Fitch fight but as what i consider a "true MMA fan," I will always be interested in watching top guys vs other top guys and seeing who can do what to the other.
1/20/13 3:50 PM
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KZTT_FawkingxD
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Wasa-B - I like Nunes btw, but he trains with Aldo and it makes you appreciate a guy like Aldo that much more - Aldo is simply one of the best in the sport. But Nunes knows what has to be done to defend tds, stay out of the clinch and get back to his feet. He simply could not do that. That is on him.
No longer trains with Aldo. He moves away from nova uniao, due to the attention being focused on Aldo Phone Post
1/20/13 3:55 PM
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in_different
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Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-)

Don't be.

I'm a fan of wrestling. Seeing one guy impose his gameplan so perfectly is fascinating. We look at it through a different set of eyes than most fans. You just have to temper your expectations and appreciate what they are doing. There have been so many excellent moments in mma the past 2 year, I feel fans are desensitized a bit.
1/20/13 3:57 PM
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Wasa-B
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KZTT_FawkingxD - 
Wasa-B - I like Nunes btw, but he trains with Aldo and it makes you appreciate a guy like Aldo that much more - Aldo is simply one of the best in the sport. But Nunes knows what has to be done to defend tds, stay out of the clinch and get back to his feet. He simply could not do that. That is on him.
No longer trains with Aldo. He moves away from nova uniao, due to the attention being focused on Aldo Phone Post

Thanks for that. Chael also mentioned that he is only a purple belt in BJJ and that i believe his background is kickboxing not bjj as i thought.

Nunes is not bad at tdd though, i think like Chael said, he lacks some focus.
1/20/13 3:58 PM
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Wasa-B
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in_different - 
Othello - I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a huge John Fitch fan ;-)

Don't be.

I'm a fan of wrestling. Seeing one guy impose his gameplan so perfectly is fascinating. We look at it through a different set of eyes than most fans. You just have to temper your expectations and appreciate what they are doing. There have been so many excellent moments in mma the past 2 year, I feel fans are desensitized a bit.

Also interesting how the wrestler implements that against a dangerous striker or a top BJJ guy. make fights. Most people only like the flash.
1/20/13 3:58 PM
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orcus
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Wasa-B - 
orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....

Yes, but I think much of the time (not referring to this fight since I didn't see it), it's pretty apparent when a guy is really going for a finish and when he isn't.

Even in your example of how you can't always "let it all hang out", one could say well, if you're trying to finish and you're not getting anywhere, don't you kind of HAVE to let it all hang out? In other words, how are you increasing your effort to get the finish if your more conservative approach does not appear to be getting you there? Can you really say that a guy who doesn't ramp up his aggression and redouble his finishing efforts is actually trying to finish?

Some of this is devil's advocate, but I think it's mostly true as well. I don't blame guys for holding something back so that they don't leave an opening for an opponent or don't gas themselves out or whatever, but let's call a a spade a spade. Many guys would be happy to get a finish but aren't going to put themselves out there trying to get one, and are just as happy with the decision win (no matter how much they say they "want a knockout").

1/20/13 4:07 PM
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Wasa-B
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orcus - 
Wasa-B - 
orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....

Yes, but I think much of the time (not referring to this fight since I didn't see it), it's pretty apparent when a guy is really going for a finish and when he isn't.

Even in your example of how you can't always "let it all hang out", one could say well, if you're trying to finish and you're not getting anywhere, don't you kind of HAVE to let it all hang out? In other words, how are you increasing your effort to get the finish if your more conservative approach does not appear to be getting you there? Can you really say that a guy who doesn't ramp up his aggression and redouble his finishing efforts is actually trying to finish?

Some of this is devil's advocate, but I think it's mostly true as well. I don't blame guys for holding something back so that they don't leave an opening for an opponent or don't gas themselves out or whatever, but let's call a a spade a spade. Many guys would be happy to get a finish but aren't going to put themselves out there trying to get one, and are just as happy with the decision win (no matter how much they say they "want a knockout").


Lentz was consistently trying to improve position, and got all sorts of them, and was pounding as much as he could given the position imo.

Now here is where the "all hang out" stuff, like, should you be expected to give up mount and just wail away to go for the finish even though its likely you might get 1 decent shot maybe but that the guy will cover up and hip escape and buck you off? That's letting it all hang out.

Or just brawl and go for the kill and leave yourself open ala Wand/Leben? Thats def letting it all hang.

"In other words, how are you increasing your effort to get the finish if your more conservative approach does not appear to be getting you there? Can you really say that a guy who doesn't ramp up his aggression and redouble his finishing efforts is actually trying to finish?"

You know you can be TRYING to pass guard or TRYING to set up a sub but simply being thwarted at doing so. I think this is something most people miss. Like in every fight, GSP is trying to do that....but i do agree where he is being thwarted in the submission game, he could amp up his GNP to soften/open/damage his opponent more. Thing is, against Condit for example, he was giving GSP as good as he was getting (if not more) in reverse GNP and kept GSP busy with defending sweeps and stuff too...im sure you saw that....so often 2 guys are just in a battle where neither is able to get a distinct advantage or dominate the other, but though both are TRYING.
1/20/13 4:11 PM
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Wasa-B
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"Many guys would be happy to get a finish but aren't going to put themselves out there trying to get one, and are just as happy with the decision win (no matter how much they say they "want a knockout")."

Yes, agree and i dont think there is anything wrong with that. If you have a distinct lead, you can still go for the finish should it present itself but it doesnt make sense to put yourself in danger and risk a distinct lead, a lead you made for yourself...it should be up to the other guy to let it all hang in that position since they have nothing to lose.

Diego does that.

Anderson is able to find the finish always but only because he is that good.

Fedor always went for the finish esp later in his career but then again also to his detriment. All 3 of his losses were due to him being over aggressive and could have been avoided if he was more tactful imo (the way he lost to Werdum/Hendo esp).
1/20/13 5:34 PM
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nowaydo
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Agree with you 100%!

When guys like Rampage complain about fighting wrestlers/grapplers, I think "why the hell don't you just become a boxer or kickboxer?"
...The answer is...he'd get his butt kicked!
1/21/13 6:09 PM
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Bentleysuper8
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Wasa-B - 
orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....

But the powers that be in judo are constantly changing the rules to thwart the point fighters and to encourage the finishers. Not saying all the rule changes are good (they certainly aren;t very welcome by most fighters) but if judo wants to remain an Olympic sport they feel they have to change the rules to keep it dynamic. In the UFC it's money driven. I wouldn't be very excited to lay down money to see Lentz out wrestle someone.
1/21/13 7:09 PM
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Wasa-B
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Bentleysuper8 - 
Wasa-B - 
orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....

But the powers that be in judo are constantly changing the rules to thwart the point fighters and to encourage the finishers. Not saying all the rule changes are good (they certainly aren;t very welcome by most fighters) but if judo wants to remain an Olympic sport they feel they have to change the rules to keep it dynamic. In the UFC it's money driven. I wouldn't be very excited to lay down money to see Lentz out wrestle someone.

There are already rounds, standups, bonuses for KO/sub/fight of the night.

As far as where you put your money, that's up to you as a customer. But as far as expectations go for an MMA match, how can you expect grappling not to play a part ? That's the whole question. What is MMA without grappling? Boxing or kickboxing or karate or any other standup So if you were to lay money down on a boxing/K1 card, you can definately play to your expectation not to see anyone out wrestle the other. Its silly to not expect out wrestling someone to not play a part in any MMA event/match. Its MMA, not Ultimate Kickboxing. There's also Shootboxing (S-Cup) or Shan Shou (what Cung did) where its kickboxing plus clinch and tds but no ground.
1/21/13 7:11 PM
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Dogman
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Edited: 01/21/13 7:12 PM
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Great thread OP...VTFU!!!
1/21/13 7:28 PM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 

Didn't try nearly hard enough to finish.

If there weren't guys like say Joe Lauzon aggressively finishing fight after fight with grappling (MMA grappling 101 imo, I might have started to take your OP seriously.

Position before submissions is terribly boring, whether it requires skill or not.

According to fightmetric, he had 8 passes and 0 sub attempts. He wasn't exactly landing bombs either.

Safety blankets are boring as shit to watch. Try to finish the fuckin fight.

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4211


He had the back a few times, did try for the RNC, just didnt get that far. So he isnt Joe Lauzon. This is what im taking about. How many Joe Lauzon's can there be? You seriously expect any fighter in MMA that takes the fight to the ground to be able to be as exciting/good as J-Lau? Not very realistic. You dont have those expectations in other sports, you can just watch the games as sports and not constantly be demanding to be entertained every minute of the games.

Position before submission is a fundamental of grappling. You dont expect football teams to go for the td every single play, you accept the run the ball and pass for small gains. You dont expect boxers to go for the KO every punch, you accept that they jab and feel out the other opponent and try to figure their opponent out by boxing and not brawling. But you expect grapplers in MMA to put sumission before position. Not very realistic. There are some like Sato, Imanari, Mir that can pull crazy subs out of nowhere but those are the exceptions and that's what makes them exciting. Lets not forget that guys that put submission before position often get beat by sound positional guys.

So, yeah, why not just watch spors where safety blanketting is prohibited like....boxing. You'll never have to worry about lack of submisson attempts, ever.
1/21/13 7:35 PM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - 
Bentleysuper8 - 
Wasa-B - 
orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....

But the powers that be in judo are constantly changing the rules to thwart the point fighters and to encourage the finishers. Not saying all the rule changes are good (they certainly aren;t very welcome by most fighters) but if judo wants to remain an Olympic sport they feel they have to change the rules to keep it dynamic. In the UFC it's money driven. I wouldn't be very excited to lay down money to see Lentz out wrestle someone.

There are already rounds, standups, bonuses for KO/sub/fight of the night.

As far as where you put your money, that's up to you as a customer. But as far as expectations go for an MMA match, how can you expect grappling not to play a part ? That's the whole question. What is MMA without grappling? Boxing or kickboxing or karate or any other standup So if you were to lay money down on a boxing/K1 card, you can definately play to your expectation not to see anyone out wrestle the other. Its silly to not expect out wrestling someone to not play a part in any MMA event/match. Its MMA, not Ultimate Kickboxing. There's also Shootboxing (S-Cup) or Shan Shou (what Cung did) where its kickboxing plus clinch and tds but no ground.

There is a difference between exciting grappling and boring grappling.

The most annoying thing about people who defend blankets is the supposition they put out that grappling *must* have 0 sub attempts over 15 minutes, or else we shouldn't watch MMA, because that's part of it.

Believe it or not, finishing is part of grappling.

See my post above.


The most ignorant thing about trying to talk to "MMA fans" about MMA is how they put words into you're mouth too. I said grapplers must have 0 sub attempts over minutes where? I said grappling is part of MMA. And if you understood it, if you understood taking someone's back doesnt automatically mean you get the RNC. But since Lauzon is exciting, every other fighter in the game should be the same. Do you not recognize when someone has someone's back and they are trying to set up or open the RNC but are unsuccessful? You do realize in grappling, you cant always get what you want, yeah?

Do you ever watch BJJ? Do you expect they spaz out and demand they are this close to a sub everytime they get mount or take the back?

Fininsing is part of grappling, ive mentioned that is the goal of BJJ. I also mentioned its not always possible to get it, even for guys like Marcelo. As far as trying to finish, my opinion is that you just cant recognize what's going on when they're grappling very much and/or just demand to be entertained too much over being able to understand the game and appreciating it for what it is.

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