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UnderGround Forums >> Cant Stomach Lentz/Nunes, why watch MMA?


1/21/13 7:28 PM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 

Didn't try nearly hard enough to finish.

If there weren't guys like say Joe Lauzon aggressively finishing fight after fight with grappling (MMA grappling 101 imo, I might have started to take your OP seriously.

Position before submissions is terribly boring, whether it requires skill or not.

According to fightmetric, he had 8 passes and 0 sub attempts. He wasn't exactly landing bombs either.

Safety blankets are boring as shit to watch. Try to finish the fuckin fight.

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4211


He had the back a few times, did try for the RNC, just didnt get that far. So he isnt Joe Lauzon. This is what im taking about. How many Joe Lauzon's can there be? You seriously expect any fighter in MMA that takes the fight to the ground to be able to be as exciting/good as J-Lau? Not very realistic. You dont have those expectations in other sports, you can just watch the games as sports and not constantly be demanding to be entertained every minute of the games.

Position before submission is a fundamental of grappling. You dont expect football teams to go for the td every single play, you accept the run the ball and pass for small gains. You dont expect boxers to go for the KO every punch, you accept that they jab and feel out the other opponent and try to figure their opponent out by boxing and not brawling. But you expect grapplers in MMA to put sumission before position. Not very realistic. There are some like Sato, Imanari, Mir that can pull crazy subs out of nowhere but those are the exceptions and that's what makes them exciting. Lets not forget that guys that put submission before position often get beat by sound positional guys.

So, yeah, why not just watch spors where safety blanketting is prohibited like....boxing. You'll never have to worry about lack of submisson attempts, ever.
1/21/13 7:35 PM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - 
Bentleysuper8 - 
Wasa-B - 
orcus - 

"(there isnt a sport which has 100% let it all hang out anyhow but in MMA, seems the majority of fans demand it)."

To be fair, the sport's roots are no time limit fights where you had to submit or KO your opponent, otherwise you didn't win.

Even now, since the goal of the match is still to KO or submit your opponent, it's understandable to see a failure to do so as not a true win.

 


I prefer kos's and subs too, I think the comparison to no time limit is also unfair....to be fair and I don't think you have to finish someone in order to consider yourself the true victor...Cain didn't finish jds right? In judo, the goal is still ippon but its just not feasible to get it all the time and everyone in judo knows that. In BJJ, the goal is still a sub but even Marcelo can't do it all the time....

But the powers that be in judo are constantly changing the rules to thwart the point fighters and to encourage the finishers. Not saying all the rule changes are good (they certainly aren;t very welcome by most fighters) but if judo wants to remain an Olympic sport they feel they have to change the rules to keep it dynamic. In the UFC it's money driven. I wouldn't be very excited to lay down money to see Lentz out wrestle someone.

There are already rounds, standups, bonuses for KO/sub/fight of the night.

As far as where you put your money, that's up to you as a customer. But as far as expectations go for an MMA match, how can you expect grappling not to play a part ? That's the whole question. What is MMA without grappling? Boxing or kickboxing or karate or any other standup So if you were to lay money down on a boxing/K1 card, you can definately play to your expectation not to see anyone out wrestle the other. Its silly to not expect out wrestling someone to not play a part in any MMA event/match. Its MMA, not Ultimate Kickboxing. There's also Shootboxing (S-Cup) or Shan Shou (what Cung did) where its kickboxing plus clinch and tds but no ground.

There is a difference between exciting grappling and boring grappling.

The most annoying thing about people who defend blankets is the supposition they put out that grappling *must* have 0 sub attempts over 15 minutes, or else we shouldn't watch MMA, because that's part of it.

Believe it or not, finishing is part of grappling.

See my post above.


The most ignorant thing about trying to talk to "MMA fans" about MMA is how they put words into you're mouth too. I said grapplers must have 0 sub attempts over minutes where? I said grappling is part of MMA. And if you understood it, if you understood taking someone's back doesnt automatically mean you get the RNC. But since Lauzon is exciting, every other fighter in the game should be the same. Do you not recognize when someone has someone's back and they are trying to set up or open the RNC but are unsuccessful? You do realize in grappling, you cant always get what you want, yeah?

Do you ever watch BJJ? Do you expect they spaz out and demand they are this close to a sub everytime they get mount or take the back?

Fininsing is part of grappling, ive mentioned that is the goal of BJJ. I also mentioned its not always possible to get it, even for guys like Marcelo. As far as trying to finish, my opinion is that you just cant recognize what's going on when they're grappling very much and/or just demand to be entertained too much over being able to understand the game and appreciating it for what it is.
1/21/13 7:37 PM
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FinestScotch
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Wasa-B - 
FinestScotch - 

Didn't try nearly hard enough to finish.

If there weren't guys like say Joe Lauzon aggressively finishing fight after fight with grappling (MMA grappling 101 imo, I might have started to take your OP seriously.

Position before submissions is terribly boring, whether it requires skill or not.

According to fightmetric, he had 8 passes and 0 sub attempts. He wasn't exactly landing bombs either.

Safety blankets are boring as shit to watch. Try to finish the fuckin fight.

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4211


He had the back a few times, did try for the RNC, just didnt get that far. So he isnt Joe Lauzon. This is what im taking about. How many Joe Lauzon's can there be? You seriously expect any fighter in MMA that takes the fight to the ground to be able to be as exciting/good as J-Lau? Not very realistic. You dont have those expectations in other sports, you can just watch the games as sports and not constantly be demanding to be entertained every minute of the games.

Position before submission is a fundamental of grappling. You dont expect football teams to go for the td every single play, you accept the run the ball and pass for small gains. You dont expect boxers to go for the KO every punch, you accept that they jab and feel out the other opponent and try to figure their opponent out by boxing and not brawling. But you expect grapplers in MMA to put sumission before position. Not very realistic. There are some like Sato, Imanari, Mir that can pull crazy subs out of nowhere but those are the exceptions and that's what makes them exciting. Lets not forget that guys that put submission before position often get beat by sound positional guys.

So, yeah, why not just watch spors where safety blanketting is prohibited like....boxing. You'll never have to worry about lack of submisson attempts, ever.

You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports.

This is fundamentally retarded... "They have boring parts so we should too!"

Other sports constantly adjust rules that boring teams abuse in favor of more exciting matches.

What Lentz did was the ground equivalent of what Guida almost did standing to Maynard; the absolute bare requirement to get the W - 1 half-assed RNC isn't good enough. If this was all there was to see in MMA, then I would absolutely not watch it.

I don't have a problem with grappling, but someone with 12 minutes of ground time, no real punishing striking and 1 half assed RNC attempt should have the rules force them to get way more takedowns for a win, at the very least.

1/21/13 7:38 PM
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Wasa-B
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One of the most exciting series of grappling was when Karo, Nick and Diego were top guys in the WW div. All of their fights with each other had crazy grappling exchanges and scrambles. But anyone that understands grappling knows that you dont get those all the time. Crazy scrambling is a part of grappling and is a its the equivalent of trading in boxing or striking. Its fun to watch but naive to expect it all the time. And if that's all you can appreciate, its not that controversial to say you're not really a true fan of boxing if all you like is brawling and trading. That's not boxing, that's a part of it.
1/21/13 7:43 PM
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Wasa-B
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"You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports."

Running the ball is a fundamental part of football. Even the most retarded rednecked NFL fans understand this. There is nothing to defend about it, its part of the sport.

Equating that to "They have boring parts so we should too!" is unsuprisingly missing the entire point. You dont have to defend fundamentals of the game. You dont have to like it but you have to expect and accept it. And if you cant, why watch a sport in which you cannot accept the fundamentals of? Why watch boxing if you cannot accept the boxing aspect of it and only want to see trading and brawling? There's always toughman, they dont box, they brawl.
1/21/13 7:46 PM
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Wasa-B
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Glovegate - 

People are paying for it, they're allowed to complain.

Don't like it?  Don't read their posts.


Sure they can complain. They can also be called out on being stupid.

I'm only try to help them. If they cant stomatch a fundamental part of something they pay $ for, why not save the $ and spend it elsewhere.
1/21/13 7:46 PM
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MdGeist
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Lentz/Nunes was not an exciting fight by any stretch of the imagination. OP wants to make it seem like if you can't watch a boring grind fest like Nunes/Lentz, than you don't appreaciate grappling, which is totally ignorant.

I can appreciate an exciting grappling exchange where both fighters are taking risks, looking for subs., reversals, transitions to dominant positions, engaging in scrambels to get top position, etc.... Lentz/Nunes delivered none of that.

Blame should be placed on both fighters, mainly on Lentz for initiating the grind fest, but Nunes was playing it safe just as much as Lentz was: keeping his guard closed most of the fight and not releasing it to sacrifice half guard to try to get a sweep or throwing up his legs to at least threaten with a sub. to get a reaction out of Lentz.

Now Lentz really made that fight boring as shit. He really made no attempt to pass to side-control or mount, or to launch any kind of siginificant offense on the ground, but he did just enough to prevent the ref. from standing them up. What was EXTREMELY aggrivating was when every time Nunes would try to wall-walk to his feet, Lentz would hook his leg and just hang on so he slowly drag him back down with his weight. 

Nothing dynamic about that grappling exchange, just a good old fashioned wrestle fuck.

 
1/21/13 7:47 PM
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Wasa-B
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Btw, Lentz/Nunes wasnt PPV either.
1/21/13 7:49 PM
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FinestScotch
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Wasa-B - "You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports."

Running the ball is a fundamental part of football. Even the most retarded rednecked NFL fans understand this. There is nothing to defend about it, its part of the sport.

Equating that to "They have boring parts so we should too!" is unsuprisingly missing the entire point. You dont have to defend fundamentals of the game. You dont have to like it but you have to expect and accept it. And if you cant, why watch a sport in which you cannot accept the fundamentals of? Why watch boxing if you cannot accept the boxing aspect of it and only want to see trading and brawling? There's always toughman, they dont box, they brawl.

12 minutes ground control

8 passes

1 RNC so bad fightmetric didn't score it

Terrible GnP

 

Rules need to be in place to make that more difficult to achieve.

1/21/13 7:51 PM
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Wasa-B
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MdGeist - 

Lentz/Nunes was not an exciting fight by any stretch of the imagination. OP wants to make it seem like if you can't watch a boring grind fest like Nunes/Lentz, than you don't appreaciate grappling, which is totally ignorant.

I can appreciate an exciting grappling exchange where both fighters are taking risks, looking for subs., reversals, transitions to dominant positions, engaging in scrambels to get top position, etc.... Lentz/Nunes delivered none of that.

Blame should be placed on both fighters, mainly on Lentz for initiating the grind fest, but Nunes was playing it safe just as much as Lentz was: keeping his guard closed most of the fight and not releasing it to sacrifice half guard to try to get a sweep or throwing up his legs to at least threaten with a sub. to get a reaction out of Lentz.

Now Lentz really made that fight boring as shit. He really made no attempt to pass to side-control or mount, or to launch any kind of siginificant offense on the ground, but he did just enough to prevent the ref. from standing them up. What was EXTREMELY aggrivating was when every time Nunes would try to wall-walk to his feet, Lentz would hook his leg and just hang on so he slowly drag him back down with his weight. 

Nothing dynamic about that grappling exchange, just a good old fashioned wrestle fuck.

 

" He really made no attempt to pass to side-control or mount,"

- Flat out incorrect.

"What was EXTREMELY aggrivating was when every time Nunes would try to wall-walk to his feet, Lentz would hook his leg and just hang on so he slowly drag him back down with his weight."

- This is exactly my point. You expected the grappler to let the striker up, huh? You found that a grappler was trying to counter bottom guy's attempt to stand back up EXTREMELY aggrivating? There are sports that do not allow the fight to go to the ground to begin with you know....so you dont have to be extremely aggrivated.
1/21/13 7:55 PM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - "You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports."

Running the ball is a fundamental part of football. Even the most retarded rednecked NFL fans understand this. There is nothing to defend about it, its part of the sport.

Equating that to "They have boring parts so we should too!" is unsuprisingly missing the entire point. You dont have to defend fundamentals of the game. You dont have to like it but you have to expect and accept it. And if you cant, why watch a sport in which you cannot accept the fundamentals of? Why watch boxing if you cannot accept the boxing aspect of it and only want to see trading and brawling? There's always toughman, they dont box, they brawl.

12 minutes ground control

8 passes

1 RNC so bad fightmetric didn't score it

Terrible GnP

 

Rules need to be in place to make that more difficult to achieve.


I think you're meaning to say rules need to be put in place to avoid fights like that and make them more spectacular right? How about givng the fighters 20 seconds on the ground and you get stood up then? How about no tds at all?
1/21/13 7:57 PM
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Wasa-B
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Wasa-B - 
Glovegate - 

People are paying for it, they're allowed to complain.

Don't like it?  Don't read their posts.


Sure they can complain. They can also be called out on being stupid.

I'm only try to help them. If they cant stomatch a fundamental part of something they pay $ for, why not save the $ and spend it elsewhere.

Because complaining to people you're paying for a product often elicits action from said people.

Complaining that people are complaining about the things you don't complain about on a net forum, does nothing.

Who's stupid now?


You're the stupid, stupid head.

Yeah, im into hip hop music and pay for it, but what's up with all the rhyming and beats?
1/21/13 7:59 PM
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Wasa-B
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When I pay to watch a fight, I expect, no I demand that if bottom guy is trying to wall-walk to his feet, that top guy just lets him up. I paid for my goddam PPV, this is how it should go.
1/21/13 8:02 PM
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MostUGersAreGhey
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quick - You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw.

Voted Up!
1/21/13 8:04 PM
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caposa
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I appreciate dominating grappling performances but I can't pretend I was on the edge of my seat while watching that one. Boring fights are boring fights. I think everyone here prefers an impressive KO or submission over a Lentz/Nunes type win, but under the scoring criteria it is a legitimate way to win. You can always change the channel.

1/21/13 8:14 PM
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FinestScotch
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Wasa-B - 
FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - "You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports."

Running the ball is a fundamental part of football. Even the most retarded rednecked NFL fans understand this. There is nothing to defend about it, its part of the sport.

Equating that to "They have boring parts so we should too!" is unsuprisingly missing the entire point. You dont have to defend fundamentals of the game. You dont have to like it but you have to expect and accept it. And if you cant, why watch a sport in which you cannot accept the fundamentals of? Why watch boxing if you cannot accept the boxing aspect of it and only want to see trading and brawling? There's always toughman, they dont box, they brawl.

12 minutes ground control

8 passes

1 RNC so bad fightmetric didn't score it

Terrible GnP

 

Rules need to be in place to make that more difficult to achieve.


I think you're meaning to say rules need to be put in place to avoid fights like that and make them more spectacular right? How about givng the fighters 20 seconds on the ground and you get stood up then? How about no tds at all?

How about no over 4 minutes ground control in round 2 with no standup from the ref?

Definitely not 20 seconds, but definitely not 4 minutes, either.

1/21/13 8:37 PM
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Pro Ice
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TTT

1/21/13 8:37 PM
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MdGeist
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Wasa-B - 
MdGeist - 

Lentz/Nunes was not an exciting fight by any stretch of the imagination. OP wants to make it seem like if you can't watch a boring grind fest like Nunes/Lentz, than you don't appreaciate grappling, which is totally ignorant.

I can appreciate an exciting grappling exchange where both fighters are taking risks, looking for subs., reversals, transitions to dominant positions, engaging in scrambels to get top position, etc.... Lentz/Nunes delivered none of that.

Blame should be placed on both fighters, mainly on Lentz for initiating the grind fest, but Nunes was playing it safe just as much as Lentz was: keeping his guard closed most of the fight and not releasing it to sacrifice half guard to try to get a sweep or throwing up his legs to at least threaten with a sub. to get a reaction out of Lentz.

Now Lentz really made that fight boring as shit. He really made no attempt to pass to side-control or mount, or to launch any kind of siginificant offense on the ground, but he did just enough to prevent the ref. from standing them up. What was EXTREMELY aggrivating was when every time Nunes would try to wall-walk to his feet, Lentz would hook his leg and just hang on so he slowly drag him back down with his weight. 

Nothing dynamic about that grappling exchange, just a good old fashioned wrestle fuck.

 

" He really made no attempt to pass to side-control or mount,"

- Flat out incorrect.

"What was EXTREMELY aggrivating was when every time Nunes would try to wall-walk to his feet, Lentz would hook his leg and just hang on so he slowly drag him back down with his weight."

- This is exactly my point. You expected the grappler to let the striker up, huh? You found that a grappler was trying to counter bottom guy's attempt to stand back up EXTREMELY aggrivating? There are sports that do not allow the fight to go to the ground to begin with you know....so you dont have to be extremely aggrivated.

I didn't expect Lentz to do anything on the feet than what he does best but I expected Nunes to be more crafty in breaking out of those takedown attempts on the fence which he failed at which was aggravating. He would have been better off scooting himself away from the cage tightening his guard, tieing up the arms, and forcing a stand-up.

And yes, Lentz made very little attempts to pass to side control or full mount except once when he took the back briefly but Nunes escaped. He was perfectly content to pin Nunes's side against the cage in guard/hal-guard and dropping weak GNP and not jeapardize any control.

Lentz took absolutely no risk in that fight to pass to more dominant positions or to launch any significant offense on the ground and that is why that fight sucked.

1/21/13 8:49 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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"You dont expect football teams to go for the td every single play, you accept the run the ball and pass for small gains."

Of course not, a football teams job is to win period. However NFL does and has changed rules to make it more exciting.

No sport has simply said "learn to appreciate it or stop watching". Olympic wrestling has gone through a billion rule changes the past decade to make it more exciting, judo has aswell, olympic boxing keeps changing scoring and rules

1/21/13 8:57 PM
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Wasa-B
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Gokudamus stole my name - "You dont expect football teams to go for the td every single play, you accept the run the ball and pass for small gains."

Of course not, a football teams job is to win period. However NFL does and has changed rules to make it more exciting.

No sport has simply said "learn to appreciate it or stop watching". Olympic wrestling has gone through a billion rule changes the past decade to make it more exciting, judo has aswell, olympic boxing keeps changing scoring and rules


That's cause no other sport has the expectations of it or the lack of understanding that this one does.

As for rule changes, what more can they do with the already 5 min rounds with sometimes standups from sidemount?
1/21/13 8:59 PM
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Wasa-B
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Judo has also been heavily, heavily criticized for their rule changes as well. Same with wrestling. There is nothing more stupid than that pick a ball thing. WTF?
1/21/13 9:02 PM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - 
FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - "You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports."

Running the ball is a fundamental part of football. Even the most retarded rednecked NFL fans understand this. There is nothing to defend about it, its part of the sport.

Equating that to "They have boring parts so we should too!" is unsuprisingly missing the entire point. You dont have to defend fundamentals of the game. You dont have to like it but you have to expect and accept it. And if you cant, why watch a sport in which you cannot accept the fundamentals of? Why watch boxing if you cannot accept the boxing aspect of it and only want to see trading and brawling? There's always toughman, they dont box, they brawl.

12 minutes ground control

8 passes

1 RNC so bad fightmetric didn't score it

Terrible GnP

 

Rules need to be in place to make that more difficult to achieve.


I think you're meaning to say rules need to be put in place to avoid fights like that and make them more spectacular right? How about givng the fighters 20 seconds on the ground and you get stood up then? How about no tds at all?

How about no over 4 minutes ground control in round 2 with no standup from the ref?

Definitely not 20 seconds, but definitely not 4 minutes, either.


I dont really follow, sorry. They should put a time limit of the time you can spend on the ground even if you get td after td? I understand standups are a necessary evil but you also realize that having standups and even rounds at all do "water" down pure MMA/NHB? Im not advocating no rounds or standups but i think its gone plenty far enough with 5 min rounds with standups and depending on the ref, they can be ridiculously quick. Okami got stood up from sidecontrol.
1/21/13 9:04 PM
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12SixElbow
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Everyone likes different things.

 

1/21/13 9:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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Glovegate - 

Hip hop wouldn't be music without rhyming and beats, it would be poetry I guess.

 

They're paying, they're allowed to complain.  Paying customers complaints are usually met with action.

You're angry that people don't like the things you like.  Nobody cares.  Your complaints are falling on deaf ears and you're gaining nothing but vote downs.

Welcome to the internet, now get the fuck out.


Nobody paid for Lentz/Nunes, it wasnt PPV.

So what kind of action do you suggest? No tds?

Is it about wanting people to like what I like? This isnt art. This is a sport that should be allowed to be what it is. Nobody cares...but you and the rest of this people on this thread entering the discussion. Vote downs, im gonna go cry and get the fuck out now.

MMA wouldnt be MMA without wrestling and grappling. Thats my point homie. Welcome to MMA.
1/21/13 9:09 PM
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Wasa-B
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12SixElbow - 

Everyone likes different things.

 


I didnt particularly like this fight so much. I like Lauzon. I like Aoki, I like Werdum. I like Anderson, Fedor, Hendo, etc.

I just dont expect every fighter to be able to be as good or exciting as them or every fight on a card to be fight of the night.

Im not saying Lentz is my fav fighter or even exciting. But its just naive to not expect fights like this in this sport.

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