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UnderGround Forums >> Cant Stomach Lentz/Nunes, why watch MMA?


1/21/13 9:40 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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Wasa-B - Judo has also been heavily, heavily criticized for their rule changes as well. Same with wrestling. There is nothing more stupid than that pick a ball thing. WTF?

Sure by the judokas/wrestlers the rules affected and a small hardcore fanbase on the internet. They didnt change the rules because they were bored and had nothing to do, interest was dropping, the crowds were getting smaller and tv was showing less attention. Without an audience, no sport can survive


1/21/13 9:42 PM
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beast66
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HandyDarsh - 

if someone says a fitch or lentz fight wasnt the most exciting thing they've seen, there's always gunna be somone claiming youre not a real fan....

quite defensive fans I must say. Strikers are a part of mediocre fights as well...it doesnt make you a fake fan to admit it.

just my 2 cents


People do not say it was not the most exciting fight they turn it into a personal attack. I enjoyed that fight a lot when was Diego Nunes ever completely dominated ? The answer is never.
Lentz was able to impose his gameplan and it worked perfectly. He did constantly advance his position, did throw some heavy shots on the ground did damage to Nunes and won the fight.
That is after all the purpose of a fight to win
1/21/13 10:01 PM
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KingD87
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I watch MMA because of fights like Hendo/Shogun. Phone Post
1/21/13 10:11 PM
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FearTheClown
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Is this 2010 again? Sure we went through all this after Lentz had that fight with Andre Winner

1/21/13 10:30 PM
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BlueNamer
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i'm a huge nba fan. i don't like every basketball game i watch and i'm not obligated to.

complaining about a sport you watch is your prerogative as a viewer, you are the consumer. you would bitch about a pair of jeans that you bought that you didn't like, wouldn't you?

that being said, i enjoyed that fight more than most lentz fights. he controlled the shit out of him - but don't lie to yourself here. it would have been more exciting if nunes scrambled out and got the ko! (nunes' fault)
1/22/13 12:03 AM
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Wasa-B
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HandyDarsh - 

if someone says a fitch or lentz fight wasnt the most exciting thing they've seen, there's always gunna be somone claiming youre not a real fan....

quite defensive fans I must say. Strikers are a part of mediocre fights as well...it doesnt make you a fake fan to admit it.

just my 2 cents


The title of the thread is "Cant Stomach Lentz/Nunes..." Not "Didnt Find Lentz/Nunes the Most Exciting Thing You Ever Saw..."

I didnt find it particularly exciting either. But I dont tune into MMA to be excited every second of every fight like any other sports fan of other sports dont.
1/22/13 12:05 AM
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Wasa-B
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BlueNamer - i'm a huge nba fan. i don't like every basketball game i watch and i'm not obligated to.

complaining about a sport you watch is your prerogative as a viewer, you are the consumer. you would bitch about a pair of jeans that you bought that you didn't like, wouldn't you?

that being said, i enjoyed that fight more than most lentz fights. he controlled the shit out of him - but don't lie to yourself here. it would have been more exciting if nunes scrambled out and got the ko! (nunes' fault)

I bet you dont expect every game to be game of the century either though and dont bitch if you dont see tons of 360 dunks in the first quarter.

As for this fight, I was expecting Nunes to do what you said, so when Lentz dominated him the way he did, i found that interesting though not particularly exciting. It told me Nunes has some ways to go still to be the man.
1/22/13 12:09 AM
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Wasa-B
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Gokudamus stole my name - 
Wasa-B - Judo has also been heavily, heavily criticized for their rule changes as well. Same with wrestling. There is nothing more stupid than that pick a ball thing. WTF?

Sure by the judokas/wrestlers the rules affected and a small hardcore fanbase on the internet. They didnt change the rules because they were bored and had nothing to do, interest was dropping, the crowds were getting smaller and tv was showing less attention. Without an audience, no sport can survive



So if the actual competitors complain about it, isnt that significant? I would say its not just the hardcore fans of the internet either because thats pretty much all judo and wrestling have. Its not a pop/mainstream sport. They may get casual viewers that happen to be watching NBC when its on the Olympics but im sure the majority of judo/wrestling fans all think the rules changes are lame.

With the UFC, they do not have a problem with popularity. And they have not changed the rules of the sport lately either. But they've always had a huge chunk of their fanbase that dont really enjoy the sport when people arent brawling or doing flying armbars.
1/22/13 12:13 AM
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Wasa-B
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FinestScotch - 
Wasa-B - 
FinestScotch - 

Didn't try nearly hard enough to finish.

If there weren't guys like say Joe Lauzon aggressively finishing fight after fight with grappling (MMA grappling 101 imo, I might have started to take your OP seriously.

Position before submissions is terribly boring, whether it requires skill or not.

According to fightmetric, he had 8 passes and 0 sub attempts. He wasn't exactly landing bombs either.

Safety blankets are boring as shit to watch. Try to finish the fuckin fight.

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4211


He had the back a few times, did try for the RNC, just didnt get that far. So he isnt Joe Lauzon. This is what im taking about. How many Joe Lauzon's can there be? You seriously expect any fighter in MMA that takes the fight to the ground to be able to be as exciting/good as J-Lau? Not very realistic. You dont have those expectations in other sports, you can just watch the games as sports and not constantly be demanding to be entertained every minute of the games.

Position before submission is a fundamental of grappling. You dont expect football teams to go for the td every single play, you accept the run the ball and pass for small gains. You dont expect boxers to go for the KO every punch, you accept that they jab and feel out the other opponent and try to figure their opponent out by boxing and not brawling. But you expect grapplers in MMA to put sumission before position. Not very realistic. There are some like Sato, Imanari, Mir that can pull crazy subs out of nowhere but those are the exceptions and that's what makes them exciting. Lets not forget that guys that put submission before position often get beat by sound positional guys.

So, yeah, why not just watch spors where safety blanketting is prohibited like....boxing. You'll never have to worry about lack of submisson attempts, ever.

You're defending the most boring aspect of MMA by comparing it to the most boring parts of other sports.

This is fundamentally retarded... "They have boring parts so we should too!"

Other sports constantly adjust rules that boring teams abuse in favor of more exciting matches.

What Lentz did was the ground equivalent of what Guida almost did standing to Maynard; the absolute bare requirement to get the W - 1 half-assed RNC isn't good enough. If this was all there was to see in MMA, then I would absolutely not watch it.

I don't have a problem with grappling, but someone with 12 minutes of ground time, no real punishing striking and 1 half assed RNC attempt should have the rules force them to get way more takedowns for a win, at the very least.


Comparing this fight to Gray/Guida is ridiculously lazy.

Guida dominated Gray from start to finish?

Guida won and won all 3 rounds on each judge's card?
1/22/13 12:25 AM
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BlueNamer
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Wasa-B - 
BlueNamer - i'm a huge nba fan. i don't like every basketball game i watch and i'm not obligated to.

complaining about a sport you watch is your prerogative as a viewer, you are the consumer. you would bitch about a pair of jeans that you bought that you didn't like, wouldn't you?

that being said, i enjoyed that fight more than most lentz fights. he controlled the shit out of him - but don't lie to yourself here. it would have been more exciting if nunes scrambled out and got the ko! (nunes' fault)

I bet you dont expect every game to be game of the century either though and dont bitch if you dont see tons of 360 dunks in the first quarter.

As for this fight, I was expecting Nunes to do what you said, so when Lentz dominated him the way he did, i found that interesting though not particularly exciting. It told me Nunes has some ways to go still to be the man.

i concur. i did not hate this fight and i enjoy 90% of mma fights. but i'm also not shocked in the slightest to see people complaining about lentz again. i'm just simply stating that whatever the reason people find to bitch about something (which they will) sometimes you just have to remember that people are fucking morons and i guess it's ultimately up to them as the consumer how they voice their opinions. that's all.
1/22/13 12:30 AM
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Wasa-B
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BlueNamer - 
Wasa-B - 
BlueNamer - i'm a huge nba fan. i don't like every basketball game i watch and i'm not obligated to.

complaining about a sport you watch is your prerogative as a viewer, you are the consumer. you would bitch about a pair of jeans that you bought that you didn't like, wouldn't you?

that being said, i enjoyed that fight more than most lentz fights. he controlled the shit out of him - but don't lie to yourself here. it would have been more exciting if nunes scrambled out and got the ko! (nunes' fault)

I bet you dont expect every game to be game of the century either though and dont bitch if you dont see tons of 360 dunks in the first quarter.

As for this fight, I was expecting Nunes to do what you said, so when Lentz dominated him the way he did, i found that interesting though not particularly exciting. It told me Nunes has some ways to go still to be the man.

i concur. i did not hate this fight and i enjoy 90% of mma fights. but i'm also not shocked in the slightest to see people complaining about lentz again. i'm just simply stating that whatever the reason people find to bitch about something (which they will) sometimes you just have to remember that people are fucking morons and i guess it's ultimately up to them as the consumer how they voice their opinions. that's all.

The difference is the casual fans who would bitch about a bball game in the NBA not being exciting enough will probably tune out of the sport or only watch if they get together with their boys at the bar so not be there particularly to watch the game cuz they're into it the sport, but just happen to be there cause a couple of their other friends want to watch and everyone wants to drink.

That's a big chunk of how dudes get together and watch sports.

The difference is, those casual NBA fans will not take to the NBA forums to bitch about how boring this and that game was. They dont care, they were just there to drink. There seems to be a lot of MMA fans who follow MMA and watch it alot but bitch constantly about every fight that involves grappling that didnt end up in a finish or fight of the millenium.

So if such a fundamental part of the game causes them so much grief, im not telling them to not watch it, im wondering why they watch it.

I think it really is similar to running the ball in football. There is no real football fan that gets irrate about teams doing so.
1/22/13 12:38 AM
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BlueNamer
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Wasa-B - 
BlueNamer - 
Wasa-B - 
BlueNamer - i'm a huge nba fan. i don't like every basketball game i watch and i'm not obligated to.

complaining about a sport you watch is your prerogative as a viewer, you are the consumer. you would bitch about a pair of jeans that you bought that you didn't like, wouldn't you?

that being said, i enjoyed that fight more than most lentz fights. he controlled the shit out of him - but don't lie to yourself here. it would have been more exciting if nunes scrambled out and got the ko! (nunes' fault)

I bet you dont expect every game to be game of the century either though and dont bitch if you dont see tons of 360 dunks in the first quarter.

As for this fight, I was expecting Nunes to do what you said, so when Lentz dominated him the way he did, i found that interesting though not particularly exciting. It told me Nunes has some ways to go still to be the man.

i concur. i did not hate this fight and i enjoy 90% of mma fights. but i'm also not shocked in the slightest to see people complaining about lentz again. i'm just simply stating that whatever the reason people find to bitch about something (which they will) sometimes you just have to remember that people are fucking morons and i guess it's ultimately up to them as the consumer how they voice their opinions. that's all.

The difference is the casual fans who would bitch about a bball game in the NBA not being exciting enough will probably tune out of the sport or only watch if they get together with their boys at the bar so not be there particularly to watch the game cuz they're into it the sport, but just happen to be there cause a couple of their other friends want to watch and everyone wants to drink.

That's a big chunk of how dudes get together and watch sports.

The difference is, those casual NBA fans will not take to the NBA forums to bitch about how boring this and that game was. They dont care, they were just there to drink. There seems to be a lot of MMA fans who follow MMA and watch it alot but bitch constantly about every fight that involves grappling that didnt end up in a finish or fight of the millenium.

So if such a fundamental part of the game causes them so much grief, im not telling them to not watch it, im wondering why they watch it.

I think it really is similar to running the ball in football. There is no real football fan that gets irrate about teams doing so.

yeah you're right. i'll just boil it down to two bullet points.

-people are fucking morons.
-mma fans are the most fickle fans on the planet.

i'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. i guess i'm just saying i wouldn't lose sleep over it. that's the only thing that's on the forums anyways - constant bitching. if it doesnt' start out that way, it ends that way.
1/22/13 12:51 AM
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Wasa-B
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BlueNamer - 
Wasa-B - 
BlueNamer - 
Wasa-B - 
BlueNamer - i'm a huge nba fan. i don't like every basketball game i watch and i'm not obligated to.

complaining about a sport you watch is your prerogative as a viewer, you are the consumer. you would bitch about a pair of jeans that you bought that you didn't like, wouldn't you?

that being said, i enjoyed that fight more than most lentz fights. he controlled the shit out of him - but don't lie to yourself here. it would have been more exciting if nunes scrambled out and got the ko! (nunes' fault)

I bet you dont expect every game to be game of the century either though and dont bitch if you dont see tons of 360 dunks in the first quarter.

As for this fight, I was expecting Nunes to do what you said, so when Lentz dominated him the way he did, i found that interesting though not particularly exciting. It told me Nunes has some ways to go still to be the man.

i concur. i did not hate this fight and i enjoy 90% of mma fights. but i'm also not shocked in the slightest to see people complaining about lentz again. i'm just simply stating that whatever the reason people find to bitch about something (which they will) sometimes you just have to remember that people are fucking morons and i guess it's ultimately up to them as the consumer how they voice their opinions. that's all.

The difference is the casual fans who would bitch about a bball game in the NBA not being exciting enough will probably tune out of the sport or only watch if they get together with their boys at the bar so not be there particularly to watch the game cuz they're into it the sport, but just happen to be there cause a couple of their other friends want to watch and everyone wants to drink.

That's a big chunk of how dudes get together and watch sports.

The difference is, those casual NBA fans will not take to the NBA forums to bitch about how boring this and that game was. They dont care, they were just there to drink. There seems to be a lot of MMA fans who follow MMA and watch it alot but bitch constantly about every fight that involves grappling that didnt end up in a finish or fight of the millenium.

So if such a fundamental part of the game causes them so much grief, im not telling them to not watch it, im wondering why they watch it.

I think it really is similar to running the ball in football. There is no real football fan that gets irrate about teams doing so.

yeah you're right. i'll just boil it down to two bullet points.

-people are fucking morons.
-mma fans are the most fickle fans on the planet.

i'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. i guess i'm just saying i wouldn't lose sleep over it. that's the only thing that's on the forums anyways - constant bitching. if it doesnt' start out that way, it ends that way.

Yeah, people bitch like mad about each card too...they sure arent stacked as they used to be, def not up with the Pride cards but there's a dam good card this weekend with MM/Dodson and its free on TV.

I'll add that its my assertion that MMA fans are not just the most fickly but the worst fans of any sport too.
1/22/13 5:38 AM
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5 o clock shadow
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Lentz could do the same thing to Jon Jones and everyone would be complaining, "He just wrestle-fucked him!"

The odds were definitely stacked in Nunes favor when the fight began (is it me or are the Brazil cards especially lopsided?) Nunes was a top 10 fighter in the world coming into this fight, and Lentz shocked everyone by not letting Nunes get into the fight even one bit. Florian got his title shot after his fight with Nunes and that fight was much closer.

Lentz had a terrible fight with Winner, no doubt about it, but his fight with Nunes is not even comparable. Lentz didn't do the bare minimum to edge out a close decision. He dominated from beginning to end. Of course, even I would like to see a finish -especially if a fighter is dominating so much. Cain vs. Dos Santos II would have been more satisfying with a finish. Hopefully dominant fighters can start finishing guys more often instead of being satisfied with just getting a W.

For those of you who say that all of Lentz's fights are boring, you haven't followed him at all. He has multiple fights of the night (with Charles Oliveria and Evan Dunham iircc), a thrilling come from behind submission of Waylan Lowe, a submission of Robert Emerson (who is notoriously hard to submit), and an exciting debut against "Tractor" Oliveria. He also has a dominant TKO victory over the underratted Eiji Mitsuoka.

fos
1/22/13 5:57 AM
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UGCTT_mousetrap
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quick - You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw.
. Phone Post
1/22/13 1:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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UGCTT_mousetrap - 
quick - You can appreciate what he is doing and still find it boring. Personally I'm more a fan of guys who let it all hang out win, lose, or draw.
. Phone Post

Not sure if i commented on this one already but its a good point and there's a good distinction between appreciating or understanding what's going on and not being able to stomach it which to me means, you cant accept what you're seeing. There is nothing wrong with finding anything boring. That is completely subjective. However, Im still wondering why so many fans are so into a sport where such a fundamental part of the game turns them off.

Can you really call yourself a boxing fan if you're only into the Ward/Gatti type fights? If you only find brawling exciting and not the actual boxing?

Can you call yourself a BJJ fan if the only thing you find exciting is the submission or the crazy scrambles?

Or better yet, why would you want to be a fan of either if that's all you want to see?
1/22/13 1:15 PM
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Wasa-B
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DanGold - For me, it's trying to finish that's important. If you can't finish a guy, that's one thing. If you're passing guard at will and your coach (mentioning no names, but a coach who looks like a penis) tells you not to pass guard then that sucks and is bullshit.

No one said finishing is unimportant. I just think there is a ridiculously unrealistic demand that each fighter be trying to finish at all times of the fight. Others have mentioned hating the MMA "matches" as opposed to the "fight," but fighting still takes tactics and strategy and always has. MMA is a sport and MMA contests are still matches. I wouldnt say Lentz was pursuing the finish like crazy but I dont think a fighter that is dominating so much is obligated to. Its considered quite stupid in any other or sport to put yourself in a risky situation and potentially be finished yourself when you have a substantial lead. Of course, that's exciting for some of the fans but most fans of other sports simply do not expect the competitors to do that. MMA is the only one where a dominating performance is considered pussified because you didnt risk it all to get the finish.

I would also say that Lentz did more than enough just to be prevented from being stood up. I would also say he was trying to advance position and did and that he was GNPing pretty well with the given position but that his GNP isnt great and that not all fighters have great GNP like Munoz, Fedor, etc and its unrealstic to expect all of them to have that kind of punching power. You also cannot always generate that much power with given positions in GNP without giving the position up, which is what most are expecting. Again - unrealistic.

Igor Vovchanin was another who could generate pretty big GNP power simply from arm punches. He just happened to be one of the hardest punchers this sport has seen.

But yeah, finishing is important.
1/22/13 1:29 PM
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Brigham
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Lentz did fuckin awesome Phone Post
1/22/13 1:32 PM
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Wasa-B
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5 o clock shadow - Lentz could do the same thing to Jon Jones and everyone would be complaining, "He just wrestle-fucked him!"

The odds were definitely stacked in Nunes favor when the fight began (is it me or are the Brazil cards especially lopsided?) Nunes was a top 10 fighter in the world coming into this fight, and Lentz shocked everyone by not letting Nunes get into the fight even one bit. Florian got his title shot after his fight with Nunes and that fight was much closer.

Lentz had a terrible fight with Winner, no doubt about it, but his fight with Nunes is not even comparable. Lentz didn't do the bare minimum to edge out a close decision. He dominated from beginning to end. Of course, even I would like to see a finish -especially if a fighter is dominating so much. Cain vs. Dos Santos II would have been more satisfying with a finish. Hopefully dominant fighters can start finishing guys more often instead of being satisfied with just getting a W.

For those of you who say that all of Lentz's fights are boring, you haven't followed him at all. He has multiple fights of the night (with Charles Oliveria and Evan Dunham iircc), a thrilling come from behind submission of Waylan Lowe, a submission of Robert Emerson (who is notoriously hard to submit), and an exciting debut against "Tractor" Oliveria. He also has a dominant TKO victory over the underratted Eiji Mitsuoka.

fos

Yeah, im surprised more people werent giving Lentz credit for a pretty decent upset in such dominating fashion. Call me an elitist but I find those circumstances and results in this sport interesting (without going to the extent to say the fight was super exciting but it def kept my interest).

Also, I would also say there are only a few guys that are able to finish with such high frequency against top competition and it also depends on their too. Like Cain's is to grind and put the opponent thru attrition. He and Lentz are not dynamic strikers like Anderson or Aldo. Even JDS with his big punching power cannot finish all the time and its not wise to over exert yourself constantly trying to finish if you are unable since that can leave you gassed and vulnerable when you have a lead like JDS' fights with Big Country and Carwin (iirc he put the beat down on both but couldnt finish and had to pace his offense after it became apparent those 2 were able to survive).

I do think Cain could work on his subs when he has his opponents grinded out on the ground but I think he also prefers to keep top position and not commit himself to certain positions that he may be reversed so no, he doesnt "let it all hang out" and I think at times wisely so. Similar to how GSP didnt put his hooks in against Serra and go roll for roll against an elite BJJ guy but kept top position to sustain a good GNP offense. Not exactly the same as Lentz/Nunes, Lentz had numerous advantageous positions, he just wasnt able to capitalize on them. I would say that his BJJ is then not excellent or elite but then again, how many fighters are? Even Damian Maia and Jacare have been unable to put guys away with plenty of ground time. Shinya Aoki is probably one of the best guys at capitalizing on opponents once he has them on the ground but I dont hear many people calling for him to be in the UFC ironically.

And good point on Lentz's other fights. Most of these fans are quick to paint a guy over a single fight they choose to paint a fighter's entire career with. Guida is another. His Gray fight was absolutely pittiful but that was more the exception than the norm. Someone on this thread even compared Clay/Gray to this Lentz fight.
1/22/13 1:54 PM
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Smellde Gluve
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Personally I'm a bit wobbly on this matter. In general I think you should do whatever you have to within the rules to win you the fight.

I was bored by this Lentz fight.

I wasn't bored by Condit's strategy vs Diaz.

I won't be bored by GSP taking Diaz down the whole fight.

I'm not sure what it is that makes me appreciate wrestling and other nonfinishing strategies in some fights and in others I just get bored.

Maybe it is when I have nothing invested in a fighter and I don't know much about them that I get bored by it as in the case with this Lentz fight.

 

1/22/13 2:18 PM
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aka_rtotheoh
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Im all for the fighters doing whatever it takes to get the W. Phone Post
1/22/13 2:20 PM
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Winston Wolf
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OP is correct
1/22/13 2:20 PM
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Winston Wolf
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and vtfu
1/22/13 3:14 PM
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Wasa-B
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Smellde Gluve - 

Personally I'm a bit wobbly on this matter. In general I think you should do whatever you have to within the rules to win you the fight.

I was bored by this Lentz fight.

I wasn't bored by Condit's strategy vs Diaz.

I won't be bored by GSP taking Diaz down the whole fight.

I'm not sure what it is that makes me appreciate wrestling and other nonfinishing strategies in some fights and in others I just get bored.

Maybe it is when I have nothing invested in a fighter and I don't know much about them that I get bored by it as in the case with this Lentz fight.

 


Its more the people that "cant stomach" or cant accept or whine for this type of to be banned from the sport that Im taking issue with.

Finding stuff boring or exciting is again, quite subective. I just think that if you're gonna watch MMA, you should accept MMA for what it is, something that fundemantally involves grappling which will not always end up in a finish (whether striking or grappling).
1/22/13 3:16 PM
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Smellde Gluve
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Wasa-B - 
Smellde Gluve - 

Personally I'm a bit wobbly on this matter. In general I think you should do whatever you have to within the rules to win you the fight.

I was bored by this Lentz fight.

I wasn't bored by Condit's strategy vs Diaz.

I won't be bored by GSP taking Diaz down the whole fight.

I'm not sure what it is that makes me appreciate wrestling and other nonfinishing strategies in some fights and in others I just get bored.

Maybe it is when I have nothing invested in a fighter and I don't know much about them that I get bored by it as in the case with this Lentz fight.

 


Its more the people that "cant stomach" or cant accept or whine for this type of to be banned from the sport that Im taking issue with.

Finding stuff boring or exciting is again, quite subective. I just think that if you're gonna watch MMA, you should accept MMA for what it is, something that fundemantally involves grappling which will not always end up in a finish (whether striking or grappling).

I agree with you.


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