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S&C UnderGround >> MMA Conditioning


1/25/13 4:32 PM
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Leigh
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I'm interested, will message now :) Phone Post
1/25/13 5:10 PM
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Wiggy
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Damn, it's been too long since I've come back to this thread. This is one of the most fun threads I've been on in a *long* time!

Anyway...various points in no particular order:

Chocolate Shatner-

Dude, you're in Japan? Where at? Do you know forum member SILK (doesn't really post here or the OG that much anymore)? He's in Tokyo and training a number of athletes and teams. We don't know each other outside of the forum, do we? I'm shit with linking up names to forum handles sometimes...lol.

But I'm going to have to agree with what you were saying referencing Japanese athletics. I don't have any direct experience by any means, but SILK has relayed almost the same exact information to me. Of course, he's had a hard time penetrating various elements of the culture with more modern S&C knowledge (too many still stuck in the 'old way' of doing things), but he's told me many stories of sport coaches that flat out beat the shit out of their athletes. Olympic sports teams back at full-speed practice just weeks after the games were over, track athletes doing actual track drills at full-speed many months before their first meets of the season, and so on. Can make it a real bitch when trying to implement a solid S&C program.

In fact, at one point I asked him if the stereotype of the Japanese culture overworking their people (think the office worker who puts in entirely too many hours) held any merit, and if it more or less applied to the sports world, and he answered 'yes' on both counts.

Point is that as the old saying goes, too much of a good thing is a bad thing - which was the point I was originally trying to make. (Neo, I know you got what I meant.) "Hard drilling" is a great idea AS LONG AS you're in shape enough to be able to handle it and you don't take it overboard. If you're not and/or you do, you're asking to get yourself fucked up for the long-term, IMO.

Neo-

Don't STFU - I can't be the only smartass around here. Jeez. HA! ;-)

You make a good point about complexes vs sprawl + hip heists. Anyone that knows me and knows my stuff knows how heavily I use complexes in my programs (though I like to think I use them differently than most...that's another subject, though). However, it still boils down to your competitive level, what type of shape you're in, and how much skills training you're doing.

For instance, I had a long (and pretty badass) phone conversation with forum member ash1 today about the body's energy systems. One of the things we talked about was the role of alactic-aerobic and lactic-aerobic (i.e. - training the alactic or lactic systems within the context of an aerobic workout/time period) training in an overall program. Which as an aside, could turn into a pretty interesting side discussion re the drills mentioned in the OP - at what point do they become lactic-aerobic vs just intense aerobic training? But that's a thread hijack...

Point being that if someone was wanted to be fairly competitive and did a lot of skills work, then the hard drilling, stuff you mentioned, or even just adding such drills in an effort to perform alactic-aerobic or lactic-aerobic training is a perfect fit. If someone wants to be fairly competitive, yet doesn't get to do as much skills work, then they'll have to concentrate on their S&C workouts more heavily for improved condition, but utilizing such drills would be appropriate. On the other hand, if someone only trained/competed recreationally, then properly designed complexes would be just as appropriate as anything.

Nowaydo-

Ab-so-freakin-lutely.

Leigh-

So you're not even doing low intensity aerobic training anymore?

Taku-

Email will be sent immediately!

Wiggy
1/25/13 6:23 PM
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Leigh
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No, well I do but in the form of sparring Phone Post
1/25/13 7:09 PM
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Wiggy
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Leigh -  No, well I do but in the form of sparring Phone Post

Are you doing additional sparring compared to what you once would have done? In other words, are you doing additional sparring in place of aerobic work?

How much skills work (on average) per week are you doing compared to how much sparring are you doing? Do you have any fights lined up anytime soon?

(Asking to get a sort of baseline idea of what a very active fighter with a lot of skills work schedule looks like - esp w/a full-time job, commute, and such.)

Are you still doing any strength training? IIRC, you were at one time only doing strength training once/week. Is that still the case?

Thanks for the input.
1/25/13 7:50 PM
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neongreenlights
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Awesome thread!
1/26/13 2:55 AM
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Leigh
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Wiggy,

Yes, I replaced my two weekly runs with sparring sessions. We pad right up and do 1 hour MMA, no rest periods. Its is specifically a cardio session

I don't do a lot of skillwork any more, just sparring. My routine looks somwthing like:

Mon: AM cardio, PM MMA, jiujitsu
Wed: AM strength maintenance, PM wrestling
Fri: AM cardio, PM MMA, jiujitsu

This has been my routine for years. It can get changed up due to circumstances, for example I've been going to our sister gym for different sparring and some coaching on Thursdays cos I have a fight in 3 weeks. This means juggling stuff.

I've just downloaded Joel's bioforce, which is the same as ithlete, to help manage my recovery Phone Post
1/26/13 3:15 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Wiggy, sorry, dont know SILK. I live in Nagano, about 3 hours from Tokyo. He's dead on too, and where I live its ten times worse. I had a thread about it on the judo forum after the Olympics. I seriously wish that I could beat some sense into local coaches, buttheir ready made excuses are infinite.
1/26/13 8:20 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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To wit, Wiggy (sorry, last post was on my tablet, I hate typing on that fucker),

yeah, a lot of Japanese coaches are stuck in the old ways it isn't even funny. I mean, coaches who think that it is not only good, but that the best way to train a JHS or HS athlete is to have them train 5-6 days a week, 2-3 hours a day, 48-50 weeks a year in the sport. Not cross-training, not off season lifting, I mean hard practices 50 weeks a year. The only time they give the kids off is for the New Year holiday (and even then, many coaches schedule a "shugyo" intense training to start off the new year "right"), a week at Obon (a mid-summer festival for the dead), and about two weeks in the end of March/beginning of April(the end of one academic school year and the start of the next).

I am not shitting you when I have seen in my town over the past month baseball teams practicing in inches of snow. Never mind the fixation these coaches have on baseball players doing "conditioning" consisting of 3 and 4 kilometer runs in their baseball practice uniforms before starting practice.

Or better yet, combat sports where, due to an old-fashioned Japanese idea of challenging environment making a tougher warrior, dojos that are unheated, so players are doing their practices in (literally) freezing cold rooms? Because you know, nothing is better for the body than trying to do intense muscular contractions such as takedowns or kicks or punches when the muscles are at a balmy 0 degrees Centigrade, and you can't feel your fucking toes on the mat (which may or may not have a slight sheen from frost if some douchebag left a window open overnight).

Even in weightlifting, I see things on a regular basis that makes me cringe. A TKD player who went to a local "expert" on getting stronger for TKD. So what did the trainer assign for him to do?

Barbell Curls.

No shit. The kid did more barbell curls than squats.

But, as I'm sure SILK can tell you, if you use our better knowledge to beat the Japanese at "their" games, then 99 times out of 100 you will get one of the pat excuses.

For example, in judo. Now, I started judo in 2001. With time off due to moving around the USA, I've actually only had about 8 years of judo experience, combined with 1 year of BJJ, and almost a year with Greg Jackson back in 2003. Yet, I was taking players who had tons more experience than me, higher rank than me, from more prestigious backgrounds than me (hey, my first three years of judo were on an Army base, not Waseda University or the Japan Sports Science University like some of the people I have faced here), and was whipping their asses on the ground. When I allowed myself to use "wrestling judo," I was stalemating a lot of them on their feet as well.

Was my success due to my training methods, or from working with world class training partners such as I was lucky enough to learn from at Greg's? Or perhaps it was due to my tactical thinking and application of judo techniques to fit my individual build and mindset? Or was it due to my taking advantage of a gigantic hole in my opponent's games?

Nope. It was because "I am strong." Now, when this is said, it's a putdown at best in Japan. As if my strength came through just God given genetics, and not through 22 years of busting my ass under pile after pile of iron.

I have tried so many times to show how a few simple changes to the training protocols of the teams would make players better, healthier, etc. But, it's a very steep uphill fight, I'll be honest.
1/26/13 2:07 PM
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Taku
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Hey gang...Anyone who shot me an e-mail, I have hit you back. Keep in mind that what I sent out is just an overview. I also have a "Players Manual" that I put together. I give it to my athletes so that they can get an understanding of the goals and methods of our program.

TAKU

1/26/13 5:48 PM
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BshMstr
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sub'd.
1/28/13 12:45 PM
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NeoSpartan
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Bump for later
1/28/13 1:21 PM
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Taku
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Edited: 01/28/13 1:22 PM
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Warning: (slight thread deviation)

Hey C.S.,

Funny you should say that (about whipping up on the Japanese Judoka's). I am not great at judo, BJJ etc (I have dabbled). Years ago I went to a Judo school with a lot of folks from Japan. I rolled with some Black-belts that were smaller and less athletic then I am and was able to tap them out with pure strength etc. For example they would turtle, and I would eventually break them down and secure a choke etc. later they told me I was not allowed to do what I did, because I was a beginner and had not been shown those moves yet.

Now to be honest, when I rolled with someone my size and strength, they would usually either tap me outright, or I would run out of gas and just end up giving up (did not want to puke on people LOL).

Just a snap-hot of my own experience. One point being..People will often say strength does not matter in grappling sports and that technique will win. However (as I mentioned above) I have bested many people who were weaker or less athletic then I am just on pure effort (having far less actual technique or experience under my belt).

TAKU

1/28/13 1:50 PM
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HULC
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Taku - 

Warning: (slight thread deviation)

Hey C.S.,

Funny you should say that (about whipping up on the Japanese Judoka's). I am not great at judo, BJJ etc (I have dabbled). Years ago I went to a Judo school with a lot of folks from Japan. I rolled with some Black-belts that were smaller and less athletic then I am and was able to tap them out with pure strength etc. For example they would turtle, and I would eventually break them down and secure a choke etc. later they told me I was not allowed to do what I did, because I was a beginner and had not been shown those moves yet.

Now to be honest, when I rolled with someone my size and strength, they would usually either tap me outright, or I would run out of gas and just end up giving up (did not want to puke on people LOL).

Just a snap-hot of my own experience. One point being..People will often say strength does not matter in grappling sports and that technique will win. However (as I mentioned above) I have bested many people who were weaker or less athletic then I am just on pure effort (having far less actual technique or experience under my belt).

TAKU


I think strength is hugely important in grappling. I trained in Judo for a short while, gained 1 belt and then had a bike accident that screwed up my knee for a while and put an end to it.

Anyway, i'm naturally agile and quite strong for my size. During groundwork practice i would often just pull people onto their hands and knees and then drive my hips into the back of their heads, pushing their heads towards their knees, then search for some sort of choke with my hands. People had a torrid time getting out of that, and i very rarely got tapped unless i was against someone significantly larger or more skilful than me. That was almost entirely down to physical attributes with very little technical skill involved.
1/28/13 2:27 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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I was always under the impression that when the japanese say "you are strong" it means you are good

Whereas if the brazilians call you strong, its a backhanded compliment saying you are using "too much" strength (wich i never understood but thats another topic)

1/29/13 4:40 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Gokudamus, the Japanese use of "you are strong" is, like many other Japanese comments, double edged, and one that is more clear when the comment is rendered in Japanese.

The way it is commonly used, it is a backhanded comment, basically meaning similar to the Brazillian use you mentioned. You must have used too much power, obviously! So, you are strong.

TAKU,

I agree that there are players who have whipped my ass around here. Then again, when I started at 21 and have the injury history I have, I should be getting my ass whipped by a lot more players than I was (I've shifted away from judo due to the new rules, and gone back to training with some Shooto guys around here).

I guess part of my view on technique is defined a bit by size. There are some things that "little guys" can do that "big guys" can't, and vise versa. To use the recent UFC, the fact is that no matter how skilled or well trained, there is shit that a Frank Mir or Brock Lesnar cannot do, that a guy like John Dodson can do easily (for one example, in 2004 when I was training at Jackson's and John was a fresh out of high school kid, I saw him do a totally cold standing backflip on the mats. Meanwhile, Brock Lesnar damn near killed himself doing a back flipping move in a wrestling match, when he had the advantage of jumping off the top rope and having the spring of the rope to assist him). Meanwhile, the reverse is also true. There is no fucking way Dodson is going to do some of the shit Mir or Lesnar can pull off.

And yes, I do agree, that athletic ability will often narrow the gap between someone with great technique and someone with less technique.
1/29/13 8:03 AM
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Crw
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1/29/13 11:42 PM
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NeoSpartan
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I wrote a long post and something fucked up, oh well.
Gist of it is:

After reading your responses about 20x I FINALLY get what you were saying Wiggy. I think I'm so gung-ho about drilling and what not because at the point I am at personally it's paramount to my success. At a certain point I MAY need something easier on my body that can replicate the same metabolic/energy system demands without beating me up as much. Also I should be able to reap more rewards (like Leigh) from actually fighting consistently.

Perhaps this is a poor example but I see it like lifting weights: If your 1rep max is 155, then starting the 20 rep squat program with 65lbs isn't doing very much for you. But if you can squat 315, starting with 225 might actually be worthwhile. There's a time and a place for everything, just because you THINK you're intermediate might not mean that you're intermediate.

Right now I still have a ton of things to ingrain before I can really reap the rewards of utilizing them consistently throughout practice. So for me HARD drilling, mobility/stretching twice a day, and using the weight room to balance my physique has been an incredible boon to my athletic abilities. I actually was losing weight trying to do outside conditioning, on top of lifting, and on top of training really hard. When I minimized the outside conditioning, didn't use such aggressive progressions in strength training and primarily focused on movement efficiency and prehab I actually began to put on a little muscle with very little change in my diet.

I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I'm more aware now that this sort of thing oscillates so I may change my opinion a year from now.
2/2/13 1:40 PM
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m.g
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Strength matters in Judo (and any other sport).

But the issue really isn't whether strength matters as much as the proper and appropriate use of strength.

Since the amount of energy and strength used in any sport counts, it only makes sense to the appropriate amount to get the job done; anything less wouldn't be insufficient and anything more would be a waste. It is all about be efficient and economical.

Of course strength can be used to overtake someone, especially if you're stronger than that person. BUT strength as the final element only works if you're stronger than the opposition.


Strength is good. But if it becomes too much of a factor for your wins then you have to question how efficient and economical you are as a fighter (or sportsman).
2/2/13 2:44 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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But is there truly an upper limit to what is effective strength for any sportsman? Note, I'm not saying size, as that can be clearly shown to have deleterios effects in many instances (the least of which in MMA would be outgrowing a weight class).

I'm talking strength. The fact is, endurance is often a factor of strength, in that the lower percent of maximal strength an action is, the less endurance it takes to complete.

For example, on here, I've heard the common fallacy that "oh, since I fight/compete at 200 pounds (as an example), then there should be no need for me to be able to bench/squat/deadlift/etc more than 200 pounds."

Nothing could be further from the truth. For one, every action you do in the ring or cage takes some of your strength. It takes strength to keep on your toes, even if you're just backpedaling and giving your opponent the finger. It takes strength to do even the easiest shrimp escape, or sink a choke. The lower a percent of an athlete's maximal strength is needed to complete these tasks, the longer and harder they can go, and the later and later they will be "explosive."

Now, some purists will point to texts and state that, if properly executed, most techniques take little strength, to the point that even a small woman could perform them on a large man (you know, like Ronda Rousey could choke out Brock Lesnar).

This is perhaps true (although there comes a logical point where it isn't. Lesnar just might have enough bicep strength to resist a Rousey armbar, lift her up, and spike her on her head repeatedly until she lets go or is KOed). But the fact is that, in competition just as in life, the perfect situation rarely comes up. You can prepare for it, but you also need to be able to "make it work" when the positions are not perfect, when your leverages aren't exactly correct, when your footing isn't exactly solid or tight.

This is where maximal strength training is nesessary and required. Because the higher your maximal strength, the larger a margin of error you have on either side of that theoretical perfect position, to make things work.
2/2/13 2:51 PM
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Leigh
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Strength is awesome and the more you have, the better. However, at some point you will be busting your arse for little/no gains and your energy will be better spent on cardio or practising your sport. Phone Post
2/2/13 9:35 PM
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m.g
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CS,

First off, in regards to sports and physical activities, strength isn't the issue. The issue is efficiency. It all about performing a given physical skill without wasting time, energy or effort.


Secondly, in the context of sports and physical activity techniques are simply movements. And the essence of good technique is efficiency and economy of movement that comes from leverage, proper positioning, angles, footing etc. Without those things technique really isn't technique; it is wasteful movement. This is true for any sport/physical activity. The techniques found in ANY sport is a prime example of efficiency.

If a person compensates the lack of technique with too much strength (or any other physical quality that derives from strength)then the person simply is not moving in a very efficient or economical way.

Again strength matters but if the amount of strength used doesn't suit or fit the amount of strength necessary then that's a classic example of waste. It is like digging a hole in the ground or shovelling snow or moving furniture. One could do those activities using strength, and logically strength is necessary for those activities, BUT think of how much energy and effort is wasted when techique (again technique is all about maximizing the use of leverage, proper position, angles, footing etc) is thrown out the window or minimized and strength becomes the prime factor.

Think of it like this: humans build and rely on machines for a reason. Machines are relied upon do alot of things because machines are designed to use elements of physics to get the work done. Ultimately machines are more efficient at the things they are designed to do then people which is why we use them.

The human body is essentially a living machine that works best when it performs actions and activities using leverage, proper positioning, footinf, angles etc.



2/2/13 10:09 PM
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banco
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Leigh -  Strength is awesome and the more you have, the better. However, at some point you will be busting your arse for little/no gains and your energy will be better spent on cardio or practising your sport. Phone Post

I think part of the problem with MMA fighters is they tend to come to strength training late. If you are a talented football player there's a decent chance you'll spend your high school years doing a sensible s and c program (particularly if you go to o0ne of the schools that take football very seriously).
2/4/13 2:39 PM
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HULC
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banco - 
Leigh -  Strength is awesome and the more you have, the better. However, at some point you will be busting your arse for little/no gains and your energy will be better spent on cardio or practising your sport. Phone Post

I think part of the problem with MMA fighters is they tend to come to strength training late. If you are a talented football player there's a decent chance you'll spend your high school years doing a sensible s and c program (particularly if you go to o0ne of the schools that take football very seriously).

American football is a very different sport to MMA though. Training for that will give you more strength than you really need, whilst at the same time actively sabotaging your cardio. Bob Sapp is the archetype of the type of athlete that type of training turns out.
2/4/13 4:38 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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m.g - CS,

First off, in regards to sports and physical activities, strength isn't the issue. The issue is efficiency. It all about performing a given physical skill without wasting time, energy or effort.


Secondly, in the context of sports and physical activity techniques are simply movements. And the essence of good technique is efficiency and economy of movement that comes from leverage, proper positioning, angles, footing etc. Without those things technique really isn't technique; it is wasteful movement. This is true for any sport/physical activity. The techniques found in ANY sport is a prime example of efficiency.

If a person compensates the lack of technique with too much strength (or any other physical quality that derives from strength)then the person simply is not moving in a very efficient or economical way.

Again strength matters but if the amount of strength used doesn't suit or fit the amount of strength necessary then that's a classic example of waste. It is like digging a hole in the ground or shovelling snow or moving furniture. One could do those activities using strength, and logically strength is necessary for those activities, BUT think of how much energy and effort is wasted when techique (again technique is all about maximizing the use of leverage, proper position, angles, footing etc) is thrown out the window or minimized and strength becomes the prime factor.

Think of it like this: humans build and rely on machines for a reason. Machines are relied upon do alot of things because machines are designed to use elements of physics to get the work done. Ultimately machines are more efficient at the things they are designed to do then people which is why we use them.

The human body is essentially a living machine that works best when it performs actions and activities using leverage, proper positioning, footinf, angles etc.




Dude, you're not disagreeing with me in the least. As I stated, with proper technique, the amount of strength needed for many things in MMA or any sport is relatively small. Hell, with proper technique, a 180 pound man can win a football lineman's blocking challenge against a 300 pound man. I know, I was the 180 pounder.

That being said, for strength to be minimized, foot placement, leverages, and technique must be perfect. Even a misplacement of an inch or two can dramatically increase the amount of force needed to achieve a desired result.

This is where achieving a high level of maximal strength is advantageous, and perhaps even necessary. Because in a sport like MMA, things are so fluid, conditions are always ever changing, and your opponent is always moving in such a manner that a true setup of a "perfect technique" is a mathematical anomaly. Even in the 1/10th of a second between someone starting a technique and completing it, conditions could change. Their arms could slip a few inches because of sweat. Their opponent could shift their left foot and hip causing the center of gravity to shift, their own foot could twist a quarter turn on that dumbass vinyl sponsor logo creating a different torque. All of these could dramatically increase the amount of force needed to complete something.

Having the maximal strength ability to overcome such things is paramount. And the higher your maximal strength, the greater a margin for error you have.
2/5/13 5:29 AM
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NeoSpartan
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I love this thread so much

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