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S&C UnderGround >> MMA Conditioning


2/5/13 6:01 AM
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Primal
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In for later Phone Post
2/5/13 10:22 AM
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El_Varaco
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2/5/13 11:45 AM
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HULC
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"Having the maximal strength ability to overcome such things is paramount. And the higher your maximal strength, the greater a margin for error you have."

That's true, but you can make much the same argument in favour of any physical attribute.

The problem is that training for any one thing invariably detracts from the amount of energy and time you have to train for all the other attributes you need. So at some point you have to make a decision about what sort of training gives you the best cost/reward ratio for improving in your sport, and beyond a certain point continuing to try and increase your max strength becomes a very poor choice in MMA.
2/5/13 8:11 PM
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banco
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HULC - 
banco - 
Leigh -  Strength is awesome and the more you have, the better. However, at some point you will be busting your arse for little/no gains and your energy will be better spent on cardio or practising your sport. Phone Post

I think part of the problem with MMA fighters is they tend to come to strength training late. If you are a talented football player there's a decent chance you'll spend your high school years doing a sensible s and c program (particularly if you go to o0ne of the schools that take football very seriously).

American football is a very different sport to MMA though. Training for that will give you more strength than you really need, whilst at the same time actively sabotaging your cardio. Bob Sapp is the archetype of the type of athlete that type of training turns out.

I don't think it's that different. In the end for both sports you want to increase the main barbell lifts (squats, deadlifts etc.). Running backs (at least the good ones) have great cardio) so depends on the position.

But my broader point is if you get to the end of high school and you can't squat double bodyweight etc. you are way behind where you could have been with some sensible training and that training wouldn't have taken up much time.
2/5/13 8:48 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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HULC - "Having the maximal strength ability to overcome such things is paramount. And the higher your maximal strength, the greater a margin for error you have."

That's true, but you can make much the same argument in favour of any physical attribute.

The problem is that training for any one thing invariably detracts from the amount of energy and time you have to train for all the other attributes you need. So at some point you have to make a decision about what sort of training gives you the best cost/reward ratio for improving in your sport, and beyond a certain point continuing to try and increase your max strength becomes a very poor choice in MMA.

True, but then again, considering the fucktarded training I see so many pro fighters do, how much is really in terms of actually cutting into recovery or other things, and how much is actually just talking in terms of doing something better?

For example, there was a so-called "training expert" on here (I won't name names, but they basically spammed the fuck outta the board till Wiggy and a few other red names called them on it) whose idea of upper body training was to have the fighter do a classic agility ladder drill, but in the pushup position, substituting the hands for the feet.

Why? What the blue fuck does doing agility ladder drills with your hands do for MMA? Muscular endurance? You should be getting that from your drilling and sparring. Strength? Highly doubtful, as the demonstrated movement had a ROM of about 6 inches, and was done with such high reps as to go beyond the threshold of strength into the realm of strength endurance. Speed? Since speed is decidedly task specific, I have no fucking clue how this drill builds any sort of speed for MMA.

It's the same for a lot of so-called "training." For example, why the fuck should a (high amateur or pro) MMA fighter be doing any of the following:

- met-con circuits with barbells, kettlebells, etc? Shouldn't your conditioning be coming from your own practices?
- ANYTHING resembling a Crossfit WOD. Last time I checked, DFW doesn't sign fighters based off of their Fran times.
- jumping out of a goddamn pool?

The fact is, most fighters waste a TON of time, effort, energy, and recovery potential doing stupid shit that has no place in a good S&C program. Yet, they keep doing it.
2/6/13 11:10 AM
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m.g
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CS,

I agree there is a lot of crap and nonsense in the S&C world. There way too many athletes who are doing exercises and exercise routine which have very little to do with skill development for their sport.

Now my personal opinion is most S&C exercises are not very helpful in regards to making an athlete better at his or her sport. In fact I am in agreement with renown boxing coach Freddy Roach that S&C is highly overrated. S&C in general and many S&C coaches seem to have their priorities mixed up and really don't really understand what makes an athlete better at their sport, whether it is mma or basketball or whatever.

Physical attributes such as strength are important but what is more important is the specific skills and movements of the sport. If the skill is lacking or low then logically the athlete should spend their time developing it and building it up instead of doing most of the crap many S&C coaches would have their athletes do. An athlete would gain more if they worked specifically on perfecting their skill then trying to build their physical attributes. Of course it is true that condition are always changing in real life so that execution of a given skill is affected. But that is the whole point of skill development. One want to be able apply their skills efficiently and effectively even as conditions change. A skilful athlete should know how to adjust, adapt, and even improvise if necessary if they can't than they are not a skilful as they need to be.
2/6/13 4:36 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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we aren't disagreeing here. I think any athlete should spend the lion's share of their time developing the skills of their particular endeavor. That being said, if players are following a well thought out and tailored S&C program, then they would have plenty of time and energy for skill training and practice.

My own personal programs call for no more than about 2.5 hours a week TOTAL S&C. That's for me, who is no professional athlete, and only can spend about another 2 hours a week on skill training for MMA.

For a pro fighter? Then the S&C program should be about 1.5 hours a week MAX. The rest of their training time should be spent drilling, skilling, and recovering.
2/6/13 4:46 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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A perfect situation would call for the trainer and the fighter's coach to work together to plan something out. I would personally ask for three non-consecutive days in which sparring intensity would be lowered, while skills would be coached "around" the S&C. Something like this:

Monday: Early morning- Massage, ART, whatever. Remember, this guy is going to put his body through hell. Should try and help it with recovery.

Morning- Upper body striking training. Boxing, bagwork, pad work. Leave this to the coach.

Mid-afternoon: Squat based HEAVY leg training. 45 minutes

Evening: Per coach's ideas, but best to stay away from anything super-heavy leg intensive.

Tuesday: Coach

Wednesday: Skill work of takedowns/ground work, lifting of HEAVY presses (bench, shoulder)

Thursday: per Coach

Friday: HEAVY back work (deadlifts, rows, etc), skill work of either striking or groundwork

Saturday: per coach

Sunday: Porn.
2/6/13 4:48 PM
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m.g
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CS,

I agree with you 100%
2/6/13 5:30 PM
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Taku
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C.S.

AWESOME post brother. I agree 100%. I see so much garbage training going on in the MMA world it makes me sick to my stomach. These so called experts have the athletes doing too much stuff and too much completely useless stuff. As I often say, these guys are trying to stuff 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag.

I could probably fill a book with all the junk exercises that are done in the name of sports performance and or sports spcificity.

Face Palm.

TAKU

2/7/13 4:33 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Thanks TAKU. You and I don't totally jive on our training philosophies, but we do overlap quite a bit.
2/7/13 4:53 AM
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Leigh
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"I could probably fill a book with all the junk exercises that are done in the name of sports performance and or sports spcificity."

Many books have already been written that are full of this junk
2/7/13 8:02 AM
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pitchfork
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In for great discussion Phone Post
2/7/13 11:01 PM
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HULC
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Chocolate Shatner - 
HULC - "Having the maximal strength ability to overcome such things is paramount. And the higher your maximal strength, the greater a margin for error you have."

That's true, but you can make much the same argument in favour of any physical attribute.

The problem is that training for any one thing invariably detracts from the amount of energy and time you have to train for all the other attributes you need. So at some point you have to make a decision about what sort of training gives you the best cost/reward ratio for improving in your sport, and beyond a certain point continuing to try and increase your max strength becomes a very poor choice in MMA.

True, but then again, considering the fucktarded training I see so many pro fighters do, how much is really in terms of actually cutting into recovery or other things, and how much is actually just talking in terms of doing something better?

For example, there was a so-called "training expert" on here (I won't name names, but they basically spammed the fuck outta the board till Wiggy and a few other red names called them on it) whose idea of upper body training was to have the fighter do a classic agility ladder drill, but in the pushup position, substituting the hands for the feet.

Why? What the blue fuck does doing agility ladder drills with your hands do for MMA? Muscular endurance? You should be getting that from your drilling and sparring. Strength? Highly doubtful, as the demonstrated movement had a ROM of about 6 inches, and was done with such high reps as to go beyond the threshold of strength into the realm of strength endurance. Speed? Since speed is decidedly task specific, I have no fucking clue how this drill builds any sort of speed for MMA.

It's the same for a lot of so-called "training." For example, why the fuck should a (high amateur or pro) MMA fighter be doing any of the following:

- met-con circuits with barbells, kettlebells, etc? Shouldn't your conditioning be coming from your own practices?
- ANYTHING resembling a Crossfit WOD. Last time I checked, DFW doesn't sign fighters based off of their Fran times.
- jumping out of a goddamn pool?

The fact is, most fighters waste a TON of time, effort, energy, and recovery potential doing stupid shit that has no place in a good S&C program. Yet, they keep doing it.

I'm in complete agreement.
2/7/13 11:43 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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Sub Phone Post
2/8/13 4:44 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Leigh - "I could probably fill a book with all the junk exercises that are done in the name of sports performance and or sports spcificity."

Many books have already been written that are full of this junk

True, but TAKU wouldn't then turn around and try to sell it to the ignorant masses as the next "fitness revolution."
2/8/13 8:31 AM
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ArtisticStrength
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. Phone Post
2/8/13 4:08 PM
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HULC
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banco - 
HULC - 
banco - 
Leigh -  Strength is awesome and the more you have, the better. However, at some point you will be busting your arse for little/no gains and your energy will be better spent on cardio or practising your sport. Phone Post

I think part of the problem with MMA fighters is they tend to come to strength training late. If you are a talented football player there's a decent chance you'll spend your high school years doing a sensible s and c program (particularly if you go to o0ne of the schools that take football very seriously).

American football is a very different sport to MMA though. Training for that will give you more strength than you really need, whilst at the same time actively sabotaging your cardio. Bob Sapp is the archetype of the type of athlete that type of training turns out.

I don't think it's that different. In the end for both sports you want to increase the main barbell lifts (squats, deadlifts etc.). Running backs (at least the good ones) have great cardio) so depends on the position.

But my broader point is if you get to the end of high school and you can't squat double bodyweight etc. you are way behind where you could have been with some sensible training and that training wouldn't have taken up much time.

In American football strength and power are far higher up the list of priorities than they are in MMA. And the need for good cardio (by this i mean the ability maintain a high work rate for more than a few seconds) is almost non-existent in AF.

Regarding weights, you haven't really substantiated your point. Joe Calzaghe became only the second boxer to reitre as an undefeated champion in the sports entire history, and he never touched weights. The Diaz brothers do well enough in MMA and i doubt whether either can squat double their bodyweight. In both cases their fighting styles relied more on volume than strength, and their training reflected this.

Again, i think the training for AF and MMA are miles apart and have very little in common.
2/8/13 6:25 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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actually, acording to Calzaghe's wikipedia entry, Joe isn't the second, he's in fact the 10th. He would also be the third "undisputed" world champ to retire undefeated.
2/8/13 11:32 PM
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Taku
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Leigh said "Many books have already been written that are full of this junk"

That totally made me LOL...Thanks.

C.S. If we sat down in a room together and chatted, we would probably agree on a lot more than we would disagree.

TAKU

2/9/13 5:25 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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taku, I totally agree. If you're ever in the Land of the Rising Sun, the first bottle of sake is on me. Or, if you're feeling homesick, there's a pub in town that serves Guiness and makes halfway decent fish and chips.
2/9/13 7:02 AM
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HULC
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Chocolate Shatner - actually, acording to Calzaghe's wikipedia entry, Joe isn't the second, he's in fact the 10th. He would also be the third "undisputed" world champ to retire undefeated.

Not according to the wiki page i just read. Rocky Marciano was the first, so if Calzaghe was the third, then who was the second?
2/9/13 9:09 AM
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glock4life
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Subbed

2/9/13 6:43 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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HULC - 
Chocolate Shatner - actually, acording to Calzaghe's wikipedia entry, Joe isn't the second, he's in fact the 10th. He would also be the third "undisputed" world champ to retire undefeated.

Not according to the wiki page i just read. Rocky Marciano was the first, so if Calzaghe was the third, then who was the second?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Calzaghe#Retirement

On 5 February 2009, Joe Calzaghe announced his retirement from professional boxing, finishing with a record of 46–0 and becoming only the twelfth World Champion boxer, after Rocky Marciano, Ji Won Kim, Terry Marsh, Pichit Sitbangprachan, Edwin Valero, Harry Simon, Ricardo Lopez, Michael Loewe and Sven Ottke, to retire as an undefeated World Champion.[65]
2/9/13 7:41 PM
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Taku
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C.S.

You're on brother! Must be in my genes...But I loves me some good Fish & Chips Mmmmmmmmm

TAKU


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