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UnderGround Forums >> Rampage: Jon Jones' oblique kick should be banned


1/22/13 6:10 PM
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T Bag
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BTW someone should post a gif of the kick that Rampage complained of to the ref (it's in the JBJ highlight video posted by CRE). You'll see that the kick lands a full 3 inches above the knee regardless.
1/22/13 6:38 PM
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HandyDarsh
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superCalo -  Slamming guys on their head should be banned too cause that can really really hurt. Phone Post

hahah BUT HES GOOD AT THOSE

1/22/13 6:41 PM
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andyman011
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knuckleballs - It should be outlawed.... as well as the spiking of the head that rampage did against Ninja Rua.
Spiking is outlawed unless they are being held in a sub. If you are held by an armbar and go to spike someone you can do it because they have to be intelligent enough to let go, they got themselves into it Phone Post
1/22/13 6:42 PM
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NeoSpartan
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If the oblique kick is wrong, I don't wanna be right
- Me & Mr. Jones
1/22/13 7:00 PM
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Severnsmustache
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It's a fight.. I've met Rampage on several occasions and he has been nothing but a dismissive asshole to me. Phone Post
1/22/13 7:17 PM
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MdGeist
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tbi0904 - 
Billytk - Have to agree with Rampage here that is a dirty kick (which MOST honorable fighters don't use) and is Way more dangerous then a lot of the strikes that are banned

If that were true there would be an epidemic of blown out knees in savate. I think most people think the point of the kick is to damage the knee, which would be incorrect. The point of the kick is to disrupt the balance and timing of an opponent. It's not a pretty visual to be sure but neither is suplexing or powerboming an opponent on their neck/head.

There isn't an epidemic of blown out knees because under most Savate rules, you can't deliver a chase kick to the knee joint. Under some rule sets, you are forbidden from directing any kind of kick from the knee down.

Your right about the kick not being intended to damage the opponent. The chase kick is primarily intended to block a kick or to prevent your opponent from lifting his leg to deliver a kick because you are forbidden from blocking a kick with your shin or knee in Savate.

I'm not sure if kicks to the knee joint in MMA should be banned in more states but I would understand if they didn't want to allow them. I think the California and Quebec athletic comm. are the only ones to ban that kicks, but the rule isn't enforced because most refs. don't know or don't remember during the fight.

1/22/13 7:52 PM
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Kings21
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Didnt read the whole thread but goddamn, how is Rampage one to talk about shots hitting the back of the head when he made millions of people think they watched someone die when he slammed Arona on his head.

Rampage complaining about shit is starting to turn into a weird version of a sitcom. Every time I see him complain about something new I expect some stupid song to start playing followed by "Thats Rampage! What will he complain about next?!" doo dee doo dee doo.
1/22/13 8:07 PM
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dahosse
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Fuck off. This is martial arts 101. If you don't want to get caught like that, quit plodding forward flat-footed with a bunch of weight on your front leg. Countering the oblique kick is literally no more difficult than checking a roundhouse to the leg. Quit looking your opponent in the eyes, figure out where you need to look to encompass his whole frame, and react to the strikes being thrown against you.

This is my number 1 problem with athletes taking over the sport- many of them are incredible specimens with incredible physical skill and only a very rudimentary understanding of actual fighting. Try to catch a skilled fighter like Martin kampmann with an oblique kick and watch him change his angle and drill you in the face.

Quit trying to be faster and stronger than your opponent, and try being an actual better fighter for 2 seconds. Phone Post
1/22/13 8:08 PM
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andyman011
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Kings21 - Didnt read the whole thread but goddamn, how is Rampage one to talk about shots hitting the back of the head when he made millions of people think they watched someone die when he slammed Arona on his head.

Rampage complaining about shit is starting to turn into a weird version of a sitcom. Every time I see him complain about something new I expect some stupid song to start playing followed by "Thats Rampage! What will he complain about next?!" doo dee doo dee doo.
Everyone acts like its entirely rampage fault. He knew rampage loves to slam people, why would you hold onto a triangle and not let go when you're hoisted above pages head. Look at struve he let go before being slammed Phone Post
1/22/13 8:20 PM
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rumble_fish
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Wow, the hate for Rampage is unreal. Tell me do you guys actually disagree with what was said or disagree solely because Rampage was the one who said it?

I'd like to see some research done on whether or not that kick can really blow out someone's knee. If it's found that it can indeed cause that kind of damage, I'd want the kick banned. How much would it suck to see a good fighter lose a year of his fight life due to a kick like that?

I see a lot of people comparing it to slams... Well, slams are hard to pull off and they are as cool as fuck to watch. That shitty oblique kick reminds me of 12 year olds kicking each other in the shin on the schoolyard.
1/22/13 8:24 PM
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dahosse
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rumble_fish - Wow, the hate for Rampage is unreal. Tell me do you guys actually disagree with what was said or disagree solely because Rampage was the one who said it?

I'd like to see some research done on whether or not that kick can really blow out someone's knee. If it's found that it can indeed cause that kind of damage, I'd want the kick banned. How much would it suck to see a good fighter lose a year of his fight life due to a kick like that?

I see a lot of people comparing it to slams... Well, slams are hard to pull off and they are as cool as fuck to watch. That shitty oblique kick reminds me of 12 year olds kicking each other in the shin on the schoolyard.
Dude, a fully torqued armbar can blow out an elbow. You may say you can tap and avoid the injury, but you can also learn how to avoid getting caught flush with an oblique kick. Fighting is damaging your opponent. Avoiding damage is part of fighting. Defending against attacks is part of fighting. We're not hating on rampage, we're hating on continually restricting allowed techniques because some fighters don't want to try and learn how to deal with certain attacks. Phone Post
1/22/13 8:53 PM
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Kings21
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andyman011 - 
Kings21 - Didnt read the whole thread but goddamn, how is Rampage one to talk about shots hitting the back of the head when he made millions of people think they watched someone die when he slammed Arona on his head.

Rampage complaining about shit is starting to turn into a weird version of a sitcom. Every time I see him complain about something new I expect some stupid song to start playing followed by "Thats Rampage! What will he complain about next?!" doo dee doo dee doo.
Everyone acts like its entirely rampage fault. He knew rampage loves to slam people, why would you hold onto a triangle and not let go when you're hoisted above pages head. Look at struve he let go before being slammed Phone Post

Lol I'm not saying Arona shouldnt have let go of the triangle, I just think its rediculous for Rampage to bitch about a spinning elbow glancing the back of the head (and come ot think about it, the only JBJ spinning elbow I recall hitting the back of someones head was the one that floored Bonnar) when he slammed the dude pretty much back of the head first. Rampage just likes to complain about stuff. JBJ cant kick his knee but if someone had kneebarred him he would be ok with it? GTFO with that. A fight is a fight and a technique to stop your opponent is a technique and it doesnt matter if its a kick to the knee or something that takes a little more to set up.
1/22/13 9:10 PM
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clem
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fucktards, i have had my left knee blown out twice. once from an oblique kick the other from my foot catching 3rd base and my body at a full clip going the other direction. Kicking the knee that way is small joint manipulation on trt x hgh.. it is dirty and more unsportsmanlike than spitting on the opponents corner, if not of the worst commit-able fighter offenses. I'd take 100 eye pokes and 1000 nut shots over an obli-kick to the knee. guarantee, anyone tries that shit on anderson silva and he'll slap their ass with their own head. its cheap and its the sign of a desperate and unsure young boy. and i'm not discounting his abilities as a fighter, but that move in particular regardless of the fighter is indisputable imo.
1/22/13 9:11 PM
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Willin
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dahosse -
rumble_fish - Wow, the hate for Rampage is unreal. Tell me do you guys actually disagree with what was said or disagree solely because Rampage was the one who said it?

I'd like to see some research done on whether or not that kick can really blow out someone's knee. If it's found that it can indeed cause that kind of damage, I'd want the kick banned. How much would it suck to see a good fighter lose a year of his fight life due to a kick like that?

I see a lot of people comparing it to slams... Well, slams are hard to pull off and they are as cool as fuck to watch. That shitty oblique kick reminds me of 12 year olds kicking each other in the shin on the schoolyard.
Dude, a fully torqued armbar can blow out an elbow. You may say you can tap and avoid the injury, but you can also learn how to avoid getting caught flush with an oblique kick. Fighting is damaging your opponent. Avoiding damage is part of fighting. Defending against attacks is part of fighting. We're not hating on rampage, we're hating on continually restricting allowed techniques because some fighters don't want to try and learn how to deal with certain attacks. Phone Post
Dude, bro! Teach us your deadly ways, sensei!

As someone just noted above the move is even restricted under some Savate rule-sets due to the risk of injury. Savate has no takedowns. MMA does so guys will ALWAYS have more weight on their front foot, heightening the risk of injury. If you want to see fights where it's allowed and guys stand on their back leg all fight then go watch muay thai.

To say that a hyperextended knee isn't prone to causing suregery-requiring injury is pure foolishness. Phone Post
1/22/13 9:30 PM
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dahosse
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I don't know why I even fucking try. Goodnight, gents. I'm out. Phone Post
1/22/13 9:46 PM
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FingerorMoon
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dahosse -  Fuck off. This is martial arts 101. If you don't want to get caught like that, quit plodding forward flat-footed with a bunch of weight on your front leg. Countering the oblique kick is literally no more difficult than checking a roundhouse to the leg. Quit looking your opponent in the eyes, figure out where you need to look to encompass his whole frame, and react to the strikes being thrown against you.

This is my number 1 problem with athletes taking over the sport- many of them are incredible specimens with incredible physical skill and only a very rudimentary understanding of actual fighting. Try to catch a skilled fighter like Martin kampmann with an oblique kick and watch him change his angle and drill you in the face.

Quit trying to be faster and stronger than your opponent, and try being an actual better fighter for 2 seconds. Phone Post


dahosse is kicked this thread in the knee and destroyed it.
1/22/13 9:49 PM
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rumble_fish
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dahosse - 
rumble_fish - Wow, the hate for Rampage is unreal. Tell me do you guys actually disagree with what was said or disagree solely because Rampage was the one who said it?

I'd like to see some research done on whether or not that kick can really blow out someone's knee. If it's found that it can indeed cause that kind of damage, I'd want the kick banned. How much would it suck to see a good fighter lose a year of his fight life due to a kick like that?

I see a lot of people comparing it to slams... Well, slams are hard to pull off and they are as cool as fuck to watch. That shitty oblique kick reminds me of 12 year olds kicking each other in the shin on the schoolyard.
Dude, a fully torqued armbar can blow out an elbow. You may say you can tap and avoid the injury, but you can also learn how to avoid getting caught flush with an oblique kick. Fighting is damaging your opponent. Avoiding damage is part of fighting. Defending against attacks is part of fighting. We're not hating on rampage, we're hating on continually restricting allowed techniques because some fighters don't want to try and learn how to deal with certain attacks. Phone Post

Haha I'd like to know your reaction when they proposed to make groin shots illegal. Look man, I'm all for keeping the "purity" of fighting alive but some moves are just not worth having around. The kick is borderline dirty, and only a handful of guys actually use it so I think it's a fair compromise to get rid of it.
1/22/13 9:54 PM
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stonepony
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Willin -  Comparing the Arona slam to the below-the-knee oblique kick is daft. The slam has counters and many ways to even prevent being put in that situation. Not to mention most humans can't execute it effectively due to the brute power required.

The oblique is very difficult to counter in MMA due to the speed of it and because of the weight placed on the front foot to shoot takedowns or sprawl for the recipient. Hyperextending knees and risking injury ain't worth it. Phone Post

It is a ridiculous comparison. That head-butt could have killed Arona, and it wasn't legal according to the rules. Leg kicks are legal.
1/22/13 9:58 PM
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Willin
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stonepony -
Willin -  Comparing the Arona slam to the below-the-knee oblique kick is daft. The slam has counters and many ways to even prevent being put in that situation. Not to mention most humans can't execute it effectively due to the brute power required.

The oblique is very difficult to counter in MMA due to the speed of it and because of the weight placed on the front foot to shoot takedowns or sprawl for the recipient. Hyperextending knees and risking injury ain't worth it. Phone Post

It is a ridiculous comparison. That head-butt could have killed Arona, and it wasn't legal according to the rules. Leg kicks are legal.
Now you be trollin. The headbutt was clearly momentum and not intented. Phone Post
1/22/13 9:59 PM
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stonepony
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If Jones should be criticized for kicking Quinton's leg, then Quinton should be banned from the sport for smashing Wanderlie in to seizures after he was already asleep.
1/22/13 10:01 PM
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stonepony
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Willin - 
stonepony -
Willin -  Comparing the Arona slam to the below-the-knee oblique kick is daft. The slam has counters and many ways to even prevent being put in that situation. Not to mention most humans can't execute it effectively due to the brute power required.

The oblique is very difficult to counter in MMA due to the speed of it and because of the weight placed on the front foot to shoot takedowns or sprawl for the recipient. Hyperextending knees and risking injury ain't worth it. Phone Post

It is a ridiculous comparison. That head-butt could have killed Arona, and it wasn't legal according to the rules. Leg kicks are legal.
Now you be trollin. The headbutt was clearly momentum and not intented. Phone Post

It's not that he meant to head-butt him, it's just that the motion of his head directly toward Arona's head forced them to collide unintentionally... Arona's head was just, in the way, or something.

He didn't mean to smash Wanderlei's brains out while he was asleep and helpless, it was momentum, or, it was the Ref's fault.
1/22/13 10:19 PM
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Willin
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stonepony -
Willin - 
stonepony -
Willin -  Comparing the Arona slam to the below-the-knee oblique kick is daft. The slam has counters and many ways to even prevent being put in that situation. Not to mention most humans can't execute it effectively due to the brute power required.

The oblique is very difficult to counter in MMA due to the speed of it and because of the weight placed on the front foot to shoot takedowns or sprawl for the recipient. Hyperextending knees and risking injury ain't worth it. Phone Post

It is a ridiculous comparison. That head-butt could have killed Arona, and it wasn't legal according to the rules. Leg kicks are legal.
Now you be trollin. The headbutt was clearly momentum and not intented. Phone Post

It's not that he meant to head-butt him, it's just that the motion of his head directly toward Arona's head forced them to collide unintentionally... Arona's head was just, in the way, or something.

He didn't mean to smash Wanderlei's brains out while he was asleep and helpless, it was momentum, or, it was the Ref's fault.
You need to work on your logician skills. None of this is relevant to Rampage's point, you're just making ad hominem attacks at Rampage. Phone Post
1/22/13 10:49 PM
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SmackyBear
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Willin - 
octowussy -
Willin -  Comparing the Arona slam to the below-the-knee oblique kick is daft. The slam has counters and many ways to even prevent being put in that situation. Not to mention most humans can't execute it effectively due to the brute power required.

The oblique is very difficult to counter in MMA due to the speed of it and because of the weight placed on the front foot to shoot takedowns or sprawl for the recipient. Hyperextending knees and risking injury ain't worth it. Phone Post

It's MMA -- everything bears some risk.

Get back to me when this actually causes an injury.
Should we allow strikes to the rear base of the skull until we see injuries as well? It's blatantly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain that a knee being hyperextended in the wrong direction is terrible for fighters and isn't worth the career risk.

Once again muay thai has absolutely zero threat of takedowns so it is a lot easier to prevent and counter obliques. Muay thai guys have their front legs lifted up a LOT. In MMA guys have a lot more weight on their front foot for wrestling offense/defense. It increases the susceptibility to obliques greatly and isn't worth the risk. Phone Post

The link is dead now, but this is the published minutes from an ABC rules committee when they were discussing linear strikes to the knee:

2. Discussion of Linear Strikes to the Knee Joint

Based on a letter from Nelson "Doc" Hamilton, the committee discussed this issue which seemed to garner attention due to UFC 97 and its Anderson Silva-Thales Leites fight. Profato opened by stating that he thought linear strikes to the knee joint should be banned and Mazzulli agreed. Foster stated that contestants skill levels are progressing annually and that we need to protect the contestants.

Lembo suggested that this maneuver be banned in the amateurs, but allowed in the pro ranks. Lembo stated that this type of kick is difficult to land and is able to be defended by checking or movement. Lembo stated that kicks to the side of the knee joint seem to cause worse injuries. Lembo added that we allow strikes to the head and eyes which could cause worse injuries.

Dr. Wulkan stated that from a purely medical standpoint, kicks to the side of the knee joint while the leg is planted are more dangerous and could cause worse injuries. Dr. Wulkan stated that the leg usually must be straight, not bent to increase more serious injury risk from linear knee joint strikes. Dr. Wulkan stated that other types of kicks can be thrown with more power and cause more damage.

Erickson asked what combative sports disallow this maneuver. It was noted that these kicks are not allowed in kick boxing but that is due to the fact that kicks below the waist are not allowed.

Kizer stated that there are ways to defend this offensive technique which occurs directly in front of the competitor. Kizer read from a statement from a NAC consulting orthopedic physician who stated that he did not see the need to ban this technique and saw other allowable techniques which could be more damaging from an injury standpoint.

Foster stated that Anderson Silva is an anomaly. Foster stated there is not enough data on this rarely utilized technique. Kizer reminded that each Commission can require more restrictive rules if desired and Foster stressed the need for uniformity. The Committee unanimously agreed that it be suggested that linear strikes to the knee joint be banned in the amateurs but remain unchanged at this point in time in the pros.


So the doctor on the committee, who presumably has a functioning brain, said they weren't especially dangerous compared to other kicks. And the orthopedist Kizer talked to said the same thing.
1/22/13 10:58 PM
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hogh20
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Willin - 
OnlyTheStrongSurvive - This is a kick that looks way worse than it is. The goal of the kick isn't to blow out your opponents knees anyways.

Why does Rampage have to complain about everything? He seems like a very unhappy person Phone Post
It's a kick intended to maintain range. Front kicks, obliques to the thigh, and jabs can all do the same things. There's no reason guys knees should be getting bent in the opposite direction when those alternatives exist.

Also saying side kicks are equally prone to damaging the knee is retarded. The vast majority of the time a leg will swing to the side when struck with a side kick. An oblique kick below the knee is cheap as hell and it torques a vital joint in the opposite direction it's intended to move. Phone Post

Kind of like every joint lock, arm bar, knee bar, toe hold I know of. Might as well ban submissions that aren't chokes. They push the joint in the opposite direction its intended to move.
1/22/13 11:32 PM
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Diesel67
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Gee whiz, people could get hurt in a fight.  Everybody playing a contact sport knows he can sustain a career-ending injury at any time.  If he does, he moves on to Plan B.  That said, how many knees actually got blown out from a kick to the kneecap?


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