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GeekGround >> Who wins? Hulk Vs Juggernaut


2/1/13 10:37 PM
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SKARHEAD
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orcus - 

 

If Juggernaut is as fragile as orcus and others claim, why did Skarr have to use other means to beat him,
 
There are degrees between "fragile" and "literally invulnerable".
 
tricking him into a sucker punch and then eventually using the bullshit ring out tactics Hulk ALWAYS has to use?
 
This isn't a ring out tactic:
 
 photo gut.jpg
 photo knees.jpg
 
 
 
 
 factor in what EVERY version of the Marvel handbook has explicitly stated, it becomes obvious that the consensus version of Juggernaut at full strength is supposed to be truly invulnerable,
 
False. This is the extent of what every version of OHOTMU said regarding his toughness: " the mystical energy of Cyttorak gives the Juggernaut an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. The Juggernaut can shield himself even further from injury by mentally surrounding himself with a force field. Enveloped by his force field, the Juggernaut has survived the fiery explosion of a truck transporting a huge quantity of oil without any injury whatsoever."
 
Nothing there suggests he is truly invulnerable. 
 
Of course Hulk WINS... he's the hero.
 
It works both ways. Hulk loses to or struggles with characters he should easily one-shot because, as the protagonist, he needs to be in danger to create the story. This is a guy who survives nuclear explosions and moves tectonic plates, there "should" be almost no one who can even put up a fight, much less hurt him.

Nope. Juggernaut was under the impression that he and Hulk were allies. His guard and his mental forcefield were down. They just got finished trouncing the Avengers together as Mentallo had Hulk under mental control....and THIS is the reason Mentallo was the one to actually finish and KO Juggernaut moments later, not Hulk himself.

AGAIN....Hulk NEEDING the HELP of an OUTSIDE character w/ powers SPECIFICALLY attuned to beat Juggernaut...getting dropped from ONE punch when his guard and shield is down doesn't mean shit...Juggernaut was overpowering fading Hulk in a very similar manner in their 1st appearance and had him of the floor and BLOODY when he fought THE most powerful verion of Hulk ever (WWHULK).

If Hulk was so much more powerful he would have just finished and KO'd Juggernaut himself after dropping him there....which would make ZERO sense...which is why Mentallo,k of course, did it for him....as usual. Just ask Proff X, Jean greay, or Hulk's Akido Instructor...Hulk cannot and never will get it done with his fists alone.


Juggernaut , however, absolutely did put Hulk is a vise-like headlock that Hulk could not escape...and literally KHTFO...with ease....and Hulk was out for a loooooooooooong time. This we know.


Anyway WWHulk vs Juggernaut should have settled this....best and strongest version of Hulk ever should have EASILY stomped Juggernaut just like the rest of the MU right ? Opps...someone forgot to tell Cain....Cuz suddenly Hulk looked REEEEEAL ordinary...Cain was unimpressed...and soon enough Hulk was beaten bloody, stopped in his tracks, absused, and forced to use cheap, unharmful, non smashing tactics and battlefield removal before fleeing the scene before and completely unharmed Juggernat came back.


So much for the baddest version of Hulk ever. Just another day in the park for Juggernaut.
2/1/13 11:46 PM
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MarkRobinson
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SKARHEAD -
Leigh - Some good points but here are counter ones - if you want to appeal to authority with the Marvel Handbook, remember than Stan Lee said Hulk wins. And don't forget Orcus' point about Juggs own creator having his forcefield easily overloaded (I haven't seen it, so don't know the details).

At full power, Thor has beat him down. Thor was actually handicapped, cos he had the Donald Blake curse. Probably a different discussion, as this about Hulk, who's powerset is much similar to Juggs

There's at least 2 examples of Hulk's own editorial/creative team stating that Juggernaut would win...in Hulk's own book in Hulk's own letters column.
I'd also like to add that in another hulk editorial column, it was stated that Thor is stronger than hulk.

Boom Phone Post
2/2/13 12:07 AM
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Stronghold
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WWHulk got his neck snapped by Tombs, too. That still didn't finish him. All he wanted to do was kill everyone.
2/2/13 12:18 AM
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CharlesLewis
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I think the Peter David issues with Prof Hulk vs Juggs are a wash... both guys caught the other by surprise, Prof Hulk was explicitly NOT as strong as savage hulk was, and in the case of the panels above, yeah Mentallo and his powers were mucking things up. That is literally the ONLY panel of Cain being hit or hurt. If one shot would do it, why did Hulk get KTFO only an issue prior?

 

Anyway it was 1-1 at BEST

2/2/13 12:33 AM
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CharlesLewis
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Thor IS stronger than Hulk... at first.

2/2/13 1:34 AM
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Eazy08
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Hulk wins if he knocks off juggernauts helmet
2/2/13 2:52 AM
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Leigh
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Thanks for the scan Charles. Will be cool if you can post the comic

Maybe this is the anomoly and the propellor is correct? I guess it depends which is shown more consistently Phone Post
2/2/13 2:54 AM
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Leigh
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SKARHEAD -
Leigh - 
JackFunk -
CharlesLewis - 


Classic Juggs wins all day, every day. That said, Marvel's writers LIVE to find ways to depower him so he would likely lose in any modern comic.


I agree, classic Juggs with force field should not be beaten with physical force.


There has to be a limit. He can't just be infinitely invulnerable, that doesn't make sense Phone Post

There is a limit...but it's far beyond what someone like Hulk or Thor could ever produce...Too Apocalypse giving Hulk Celestial powerup to do it.



And don't give me this Hulk can get stronger for ever and ever if he's mad enough.


No. There's DEFINITELY a limit there. Hulk can only get so mad....and he can get as mad as he wants for a week straight....he will NEVER beat Galactus or a Celestial arm wrestling. Isn't going to max out Cytorrak either.
I never said hulk can get stronger for ever. He clearly can't and has been over powered numerous times. You need to improve your reading comprehension Phone Post
2/2/13 2:56 AM
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Leigh
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SKARHEAD -
Leigh - How would Juggernaut do it? He doesn't have explosive power, we don't even know how strong he is. What are his greatest strength feats? KOing people is not a strength feat, nor does it make sense when you do not move very fast.

As I stated, neither should be able to hurt the other with punches. You can make the argument that comic physics isn't in play here and we have to suspend logic but in that case, they have both hurt each other with punches in the comics. In that case, who ever gets the first shot off will probably win

Hulk has stopped Juggs with one shot before, I don't think the reverse is true. Juggernaut is more likely to throw first in a random encounter cos that's what he does - punch first and ask questions later

lol


What do you mean they shouldn't be able to hurt each other w/ punches ? What part of Hulk getting beaten BLOODY and KTFO did you miss ?


Without the forcefield Hulk and Juggernaut are basically equal, down to strength levels and suped up healing factors...however when Juggernaut chooses to mentally activate his forcefield he enjoys a level of unvulnerability that Hulk's punches and Thor's hammer cannot penetrate. Accept it.
Your reading is now so bad you must be trolling. I'm not even responding to this - you may like repeating yourself over and over but I do not. Re-read my posts Phone Post
2/2/13 7:23 AM
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CharlesLewis
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2/2/13 7:29 AM
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CharlesLewis
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they get teleported away, that's the whole fight

2/2/13 9:39 AM
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Stronghold
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Unlimited power + a low IQ and no real heart nor ambition = still a loser. We'll see if the Russian can do any better with it.
2/2/13 9:41 AM
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The_Pundits_Fluffer_III
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MarkRobinson - 
The_Pundits_Fluffer_III - 

Speaking of canon. Do you guys remember this? Stan Lee said it was the most canon marvel comic of ALL TIME and no other marvel comics could ever cancel it out.

 


Is this Colossus kissing geriatric Jean Grey?

 

lol

 

 

nice! 


lmao now that you mention it, it  does look kinda like Jean Grey.

2/2/13 9:47 AM
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SKARHEAD
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LOL...I thought it was Jean Grey as well
2/2/13 10:02 AM
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Leigh
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Thanks for posting, Charles. That was a great showing for Juggernaut. He said he was powered up - is that true?

Writer error, Thor doesn't need to breathe Phone Post
2/2/13 12:41 PM
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orcus
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"Re: OHOTMU, I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the more extensive entry went on to describe his unstoppability as such that "even focused plasma beams could slow but not halt his forward movement" which pretty strongly implies that he's invulnerable to them, unless he's walking forward into his death."

That's in reference purely to his unstoppability, and is in the same entry as what I posted regarding his durability. Why would plasma beams be the yardstick for invulnerability? It would be very easy for them to say "Juggernaut is invulnerable" but they don't, and the peak episode they reference is surviving a fuel truck explosion.

"btw, here's the infamous "propeller" issue. A giant piece of metal knocks Juggs over, and ICEMAN comments that he looks "groggy"."

Yes, and in the next panel, Beast kicks him and Juggs cries out in pain as he gets staggered. Clearly not invulnerable, and in any case, it illustrates that even the forcefield was not intended to be some god-level invulnerability, as it maxed out and shutdown from a propellor impact.

2/2/13 12:47 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 02/02/13 1:04 PM
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"Much truth in this: in one of the oft-mentioned Thor battles, he used Mjolnir to cut off Juggs from his power source. While he doesn't instantly get depowered, and retains MOST of his strength he is unable to draw on it's limitless power... but no one mentions that when telling the story of Thor winning..."

That's because it's not what happened. Neither Thor, nor the Juggernaut, nor any editorial captions said or implied that Juggernaut lost ANY strength at all, or anything whatsoever other than his forcefield. In fact Thor explicitly says "no longer art thou protected by thy impenetrable forcefield", and Juggernaut replies "you may have taken away my invulnerability, but I'm still as strong as ever!" This particular writer (who thought Juggernaut was a mutant) had Juggs' inulvernability being due to his forcefield, so Thor took it away so they could fight on a more level playing field. It's clear that Juggernaut himself feels no different whatsoever, as he doesn't even know what Thor has done until he gets punched.

You seem to have been suckered in by Skarhead's bizarro alternate reality version of the comic that exists only in his head, where Juggs is somehow cut off from his power source, and not just -- as the writer made clear -- the "mystical energy" of his forcefield was "negated".

2/2/13 1:01 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 02/02/13 3:47 PM
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"Nope. Juggernaut was under the impression that he and Hulk were allies. His guard and his mental forcefield were down. They just got finished trouncing the Avengers together as Mentallo had Hulk under mental control....and THIS is the reason Mentallo was the one to actually finish and KO Juggernaut moments later, not Hulk himself."

Always fun going over the same ground. Hulk spent several panels stomping toward Juggernaut, gnashing his teeth and clenching his fists. lol @ Juggernaut not knowing anything was up. Durr what does Hulk do when he's in a rage? Give hugs?

Juggernaut was down and out from a gut punch, get over it. When Mentallo unleashed his mental blast TWO PAGES LATER, after having a mental war with Hulk, Juggernaut was STILL on his knees from that punch. 

"If Hulk was so much more powerful he would have just finished and KO'd Juggernaut himself after dropping him there."

...except immediately after Hulk one-punched Juggs, Mentallo psionically attacked him. Yep, Juggs was saved by a telepath. Luckily for him, Hulk spent the next couple pages in a psi-battle with Mentallo, time that Juggs spent on his knees retching.

 

 photo hulkgut.jpg

 

"and in the case of the panels above, yeah Mentallo and his powers were mucking things up"

Mentallo was not doing anything at all to Juggernaut and all he was doing to Hulk was making him hate his dad.

"That is literally the ONLY panel of Cain being hit or hurt. If one shot would do it, why did Hulk get KTFO only an issue prior?"

Simple, this time Hulk was pissed and not holding back. The whole point of Cain taking Hulk on in the first issue in his civilian clothes was so Hulk would not know who he was and wouldn't go apeshit.  Juggs even admitted this is how he won:

 

 photo trick.jpg

 

 

"Thanks for posting, Charles. That was a great showing for Juggernaut. He said he was powered up - is that true?"

Exactly, this was the Juggernaut being drawn toward that meeting of the Avatars or whatever, the version that punched through space. Not standard Juggernaut and not a power-up ability he can draw on himself, as is the case with Hulk's anger.

2/2/13 4:30 PM
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Alger Hiss
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What hath thou wrought, Stick?
2/2/13 9:14 PM
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1armedScissor
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I'm totally out of the loop. Who did Doc Ock kill?
2/2/13 10:21 PM
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dizz
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1armedScissor - I'm totally out of the loop. Who did Doc Ock kill?
Spidey

We don't speak of it Phone Post
2/3/13 12:36 PM
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Ashuram
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You know, normally i might agree with the "Hulk wins" group.
But then i remember a de-powered but very angry Juggs fighting King Hyperion to a stand still....
2/3/13 4:30 PM
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The_Pundits_Fluffer_III
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Ashuram - You know, normally i might agree with the "Hulk wins" group.
But then i remember a de-powered but very angry Juggs fighting King Hyperion to a stand still....

In the Thunderbolts? That Hyperion wasn't as strong as the one from Exiles.

2/3/13 6:47 PM
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CharlesLewis
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Without going into detail orcus: No.

 

More later.

 

In Thunderbolts, half power Juggs gave a good account of himself vs Hyperion, but he was losing that fight. I don't see any reson to believe he was any less powerful than any other version of Hyperion and in fact I remember a thread speculating that it was in fact the same Hyperion as the "King" version.

2/3/13 6:56 PM
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CharlesLewis
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orcus - 

"Re: OHOTMU, I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the more extensive entry went on to describe his unstoppability as such that "even focused plasma beams could slow but not halt his forward movement" which pretty strongly implies that he's invulnerable to them, unless he's walking forward into his death."

That's in reference purely to his unstoppability, and is in the same entry as what I posted regarding his durability. Why would plasma beams be the yardstick for invulnerability? It would be very easy for them to say "Juggernaut is invulnerable" but they don't, and the peak episode they reference is surviving a fuel truck explosion.

"btw, here's the infamous "propeller" issue. A giant piece of metal knocks Juggs over, and ICEMAN comments that he looks "groggy"."

Yes, and in the next panel, Beast kicks him and Juggs cries out in pain as he gets staggered. Clearly not invulnerable, and in any case, it illustrates that even the forcefield was not intended to be some god-level invulnerability, as it maxed out and shutdown from a propellor impact.


Why the hell is plasma any less of a yardstick than a truck of gasoline or whatever?

 

Knocking Juggs around and making him grunt is not the same as Juggs drawing blood when he hits Hulk. As I said it's been shown time and again you can knock Cain around if he's not set and ready for you or charging. No damage is done in most instances.

 

In the above Mentallo fight, you have Mentallo pumping Hulk full of "increse the Psi power to full" and making Hulk think Cain is his dad. That's not a factor to you, of course just everyday Hulk. He catches Cain off guard and puts him on his knees for a panel. It's stupid and makes very little sense, but neither does the Thor issue with the mutant power references and the force field. Yet these oddball issues are always the ones you cite to run Juggs down.

 

In MOST appearances throughout the 70s and 80s Cain was shown to have a high degree of invulnerability, beyond even that of the class 100 bunch. I guess your position is that the OHOTMU references to his unstoppability do NOT imply that he's invulnerable to focused plasma beams? Like he can walk through them but he's taking damage?

really?

 

I know it's fun winding Skarhead up but seriously. We all know what Juggs powers are SUPPOSED to be and we all know bad/sloppy writing when we see it.


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