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GeekGround >> Who wins? Hulk Vs Juggernaut


2/3/13 6:58 PM
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CharlesLewis
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As far as Juggs being powered up in the Thor issue I posted, he may have been... or it may have been a reference to the year or two he spent dividing his power with Black Tom. I will read the issues tonight and see where they fall in the timeline.

2/4/13 12:35 PM
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orcus
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"Why the hell is plasma any less of a yardstick than a truck of gasoline or whatever?"

Because when they are discussing his invulnerability, they use the explosion as the example of just how much he is known to have been invulnerable to, while when discussing his unstoppability, they reference the force of a plasma cannon. If "focused plasma beams" are defined somewhere as being at the top of the damage scale, then presumably they'd have used that to categorize his toughness as well as or instead of his unstoppability.

"That's not a factor to you, of course just everyday Hulk."

Huh? I said he was pissed, which is the difference between this encounter and the one in the previous issue.

"He catches Cain off guard and puts him on his knees for a panel."

Cool to see you're following in Skarhead's footsteps and acting like Cain was expecting a friendly handshake as Hulk stomped toward him over the course of several panels, clenching his fists and grinding his teeth and foaming at the mouth. Also in terms of pretending he was on his knees for "a panel" and not for a couple pages, still being on his knees when Mentallo psi-blasted everyone a couple pages later.

"It's stupid and makes very little sense"

Yes, pissed off Hulk hurting somebody with a punch is stupid and makes very little sense.

"Yet these oddball issues are always the ones you cite to run Juggs down."

The Thor issue was originally posted -- repeatedly -- by Skarhead as the defining story that shows how untouchable Juggernaut is with his forcefield. If you want to throw it out, be my guest. That leaves you with like two or three appearances -- or even mentions -- of a forcefield in Marvel comics history -- and in one of those, it was overloaded and shut down by impact with a propellor, leaving Juggs vulnerable to be stunned by a kick from Beast. 

If you want to talk "oddball issues", how many appearances have shown Juggernaut to be truly invulnerable? This always comes up and it always comes up short. There's the Thor issue which we're apparently throwing out. There's the Thor comic you just posted, where he is powered up for the big Avatar hoedown -- although to quote your comment at me, "that's not a factor to you, of course, just everday Juggernaut" -- even though Juggs himself says, in response to Thor saying he's more powerful than ever, "something's making me that way, something's drawing me somewhere".

Any others? Because there are big problems with both of those. Meanwhile I can post half a dozen at least instances of Juggernaut being hurt.

"We all know what Juggs powers are SUPPOSED to be"

Yes, his powers are clearly SUPPOSED to be beyond what they are said to be in OHOTMU, and beyond what they are shown to be in MANY appearances. Juggernaut taking YEARS to dig out of a cave-in, Juggernaut's forcefield getting shut down by a turbine, Juggernaut getting stunned by a kick from beast -- these depictions, in his first two appearances, written by his creator, are clearly NOT what the character is SUPPOSED to be. Nor is his description in OHOTMU, in edition after edition, hashed out by the editors.

2/4/13 12:53 PM
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BIGWHITESEXY
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orcus - 

"Why the hell is plasma any less of a yardstick than a truck of gasoline or whatever?"

Because when they are discussing his invulnerability, they use the explosion as the example of just how much he is known to have been invulnerable to, while when discussing his unstoppability, they reference the force of a plasma cannon. If "focused plasma beams" are defined somewhere as being at the top of the damage scale, then presumably they'd have used that to categorize his toughness as well as or instead of his unstoppability.

"That's not a factor to you, of course just everyday Hulk."

Huh? I said he was pissed, which is the difference between this encounter and the one in the previous issue.

"He catches Cain off guard and puts him on his knees for a panel."

Cool to see you're following in Skarhead's footsteps and acting like Cain was expecting a friendly handshake as Hulk stomped toward him over the course of several panels, clenching his fists and grinding his teeth and foaming at the mouth. Also in terms of pretending he was on his knees for "a panel" and not for a couple pages, still being on his knees when Mentallo psi-blasted everyone a couple pages later.

"It's stupid and makes very little sense"

Yes, pissed off Hulk hurting somebody with a punch is stupid and makes very little sense.

"Yet these oddball issues are always the ones you cite to run Juggs down."

The Thor issue was originally posted -- repeatedly -- by Skarhead as the defining story that shows how untouchable Juggernaut is with his forcefield. If you want to throw it out, be my guest. That leaves you with like two or three appearances -- or even mentions -- of a forcefield in Marvel comics history -- and in one of those, it was overloaded and shut down by impact with a propellor, leaving Juggs vulnerable to be stunned by a kick from Beast. 

If you want to talk "oddball issues", how many appearances have shown Juggernaut to be truly invulnerable? This always comes up and it always comes up short. There's the Thor issue which we're apparently throwing out. There's the Thor comic you just posted, where he is powered up for the big Avatar hoedown -- although to quote your comment at me, "that's not a factor to you, of course, just everday Juggernaut" -- even though Juggs himself says, in response to Thor saying he's more powerful than ever, "something's making me that way, something's drawing me somewhere".

Any others? Because there are big problems with both of those. Meanwhile I can post half a dozen at least instances of Juggernaut being hurt.

"We all know what Juggs powers are SUPPOSED to be"

Yes, his powers are clearly SUPPOSED to be beyond what they are said to be in OHOTMU, and beyond what they are shown to be in MANY appearances. Juggernaut taking YEARS to dig out of a cave-in, Juggernaut's forcefield getting shut down by a turbine, Juggernaut getting stunned by a kick from beast -- these depictions, in his first two appearances, written by his creator, are clearly NOT what the character is SUPPOSED to be. Nor is his description in OHOTMU, in edition after edition, hashed out by the editors.


IT BEGINS............................

2/4/13 11:09 PM
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Calebcb
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2/5/13 4:00 AM
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JackFunk
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Edited: 02/05/13 4:11 AM
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" That leaves you with like two or three appearances -- or even mentions -- of a forcefield in Marvel comics history"

Oh come now, you are being disingenuous.

2/5/13 4:00 AM
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JackFunk
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2/5/13 4:03 AM
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JackFunk
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2/5/13 4:09 AM
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JackFunk
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2/5/13 4:16 AM
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JackFunk
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2/5/13 4:28 AM
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JackFunk
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2/5/13 5:06 AM
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Leigh
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So he can read minds, fire globules, slow objects down before they even reach his force field but his force field doesn't fully protect him and he can be knocked groggy even with the forcefield on.

Got it Phone Post
2/5/13 12:20 PM
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JackFunk
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Leigh -  So he can read minds, fire globules, slow objects down before they even reach his force field but his force field doesn't fully protect him and he can be knocked groggy even with the forcefield on.

Got it Phone Post

Actually it appears that he can turn the field off and on at will. When it's up, physical force doesn't penetrate it.

Now of course, Galactus or other Top Tier dudes should be able to beat it, Thor can take away the enchantment for eg.

But when Juggs has his field up at full power, I have yet to see anything penetrate it.

Of course, the writing it inconsistent, like SS being hammerlocked by B Panther, and they like to have Juggy job out, so in the last few years there have been all kinds of depowering, sharing, losing strength, etc.

2/5/13 12:55 PM
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Leigh
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Edited: 02/05/13 2:48 PM
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Well it says right there, "his force field protected him but he still looks groggy," implying it didn't fully protect him Phone Post
2/5/13 3:57 PM
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BaldTony
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When they remove his helmet, why don't they throw it into the sun?
2/5/13 9:42 PM
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orcus
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"Oh come now, you are being disingenuous."

You posted 6 examples. Two of those are from one story, and it's the one Charles suggested we throw out because the writer was retarded. So that leaves 4 examples.

 In one he is shooting out energy globules, he appears to be glowing but I have no idea if that is a forcefield. One is one where his forcefield got maxed out and shut off by impact with a propellor, and without it Juggs was able to be stunned by a kick from Beast. Some of the others may be the same issues. How many actual stories had Juggernaut displaying or mentioning a forcefield? And in how many of those was he truly invulnerable?

 

2/6/13 12:22 AM
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Zenoplata
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HEH!

HULK DOESN'T NEED A PUSSY ASS FORCEFIELD. HULK CAN PUNCH THROUGH BITCH-TITS FORCEFIELD AND SMASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2/6/13 2:16 AM
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CharlesLewis
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BaldTony - When they remove his helmet, why don't they throw it into the sun?

First off the helmet just protects him from psionics, it is not, as is sometimes implied, the source of any power. Second, it's a magic item, a gift from Cyttorak, and he can create another out of any available metal if he loses it. It's been shown twice that I can recall.

 

Right now I am attempting to download and catalog every Juggernaut appearance since the character's debut, and count the appearances where he used the field or it was mentioned. I will say that the forcefield seems to have been forgotten some time around that Thor issue in contention, after that his overall invulnerability seemed to be more or less inherant.

 

The last appearance that I can think of where Cain was at full strength, no bonuses and no weaknesses, was his fight with Skaar. Skaar was unable to do anything with Cain until he got him off the ground, and boosted his already Hulk like strength further with oldpower. Evn still, though he was able to knock Cain INTO ORBIT, he did no real damage, and elicited little more than an "ah hell" response. Orbit, a mild inconvinience. Upon landing, Cain was shown to have been KOed, by Captain Universe. Even though the Captain's host was trying to kill Juggs, he only managed to knock him out. That's a lot more power than a broken turbine, or a kick from Beast. It seems that Marvel has decided to set the current level of Cain's invulnerability at full strength, far beyond any of the oddball issues earlier cited.

If he wasn't that hard to hurt, the writers wouldn't feel the need to constantly depower him through convoluted storytelling. I know 90% of these arguments are just to wind Skarhead up, but seriously: the guy's tougher to hurt than Hulk, Thor or anyone else in that class of bruisers, and has been for quite a while.

2/6/13 2:26 AM
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JackFunk
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orcus - 

"Oh come now, you are being disingenuous."

You posted 6 examples. Two of those are from one story, and it's the one Charles suggested we throw out because the writer was retarded. So that leaves 4 examples.

 In one he is shooting out energy globules, he appears to be glowing but I have no idea if that is a forcefield. One is one where his forcefield got maxed out and shut off by impact with a propellor, and without it Juggs was able to be stunned by a kick from Beast. Some of the others may be the same issues. How many actual stories had Juggernaut displaying or mentioning a forcefield? And in how many of those was he truly invulnerable?

 


Classic Juggs always had the field, from the first time I saw him back in the early 80's.

The Marvel Handbook mentions it, the Marvel Directory, Juggs wiki, Marvel role playing game, and on and on.

Are you arguing that there is no forcefield? Or are you debating the power of it?

In the fights with Spiderman and Thor, both mention the forcefield as being the true source of Juggs invulnerability. In that Spidey fight, you can see the webs hit the field a foot or so away from Cain.

It really just seems that Cain will utilize his field when and if he wants to. Like the panel above where he flicks it on to stop that telekinetic attack. He even withstood Thor's godblast with the field.

I still maintain that Classic Juggs with his field up cannot be beaten by physical force unless his opponent is essentially more powerful than Cytorak, or has access to strong magical attacks.
2/6/13 8:32 PM
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SKARHEAD
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That's 6 mentions of his forcefield IN CONTINUITY right there....spread out over several books over several years....Not to mention that it is CLEALY stated in EVERY SINGLE version of the OHOTMU ever printed, the RPG game, and the official Marvel website.




However orcus has taken it upon himself to decide that Juggernaut doesn't really possess the forcefield...and is the only person to even ever come up with this silly idea...EVER...ANYWHERE...so we should take his word for it...and listen to him...because he says so.



LOL


Marvel has some shitty editing, for sure, and OBVIOUSLY some writers didn't bother to do their research....but at least 6 examples of continuity, EVERY version of OHOTMU ever printed, the RPG game, and The Official Marvel website have just a liiiiiitle more credibility than orcus and his little personal agenda.
2/6/13 8:38 PM
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SKARHEAD
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orcus - 

"Oh come now, you are being disingenuous."

You posted 6 examples. Two of those are from one story, and it's the one Charles suggested we throw out because the writer was retarded. So that leaves 4 examples.

 In one he is shooting out energy globules, he appears to be glowing but I have no idea if that is a forcefield. One is one where his forcefield got maxed out and shut off by impact with a propellor, and without it Juggs was able to be stunned by a kick from Beast. Some of the others may be the same issues. How many actual stories had Juggernaut displaying or mentioning a forcefield? And in how many of those was he truly invulnerable?

 


Juggernaut has a forcefield. Get over it. Continuity and every official source says you are wrong. You're the only loon in existence that thinks otherwise...Why don't you write to Marvel and ask them if they're wrong about their own offcial sources and stats regarding their own character ?



Go on.


lol
2/6/13 9:31 PM
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Zenoplata
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The fact that you guys think Juggernaut having a forcefield is an argument FOR him is hilarious.

It makes him a little bitch! You know who else has a force-field!? The Invisible WOMAN.

Juggernaut is like a dumber, fat version of the Invisible Woman without all her bad ass powers like "mind bubbles in people's brains."

I bet he has periods just like her too.

So basically.... Juggernaut is a bitch because he uses forcefields and NOT NEARLY as bad ass as the HULK.

/thread.

2/7/13 12:56 AM
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orcus
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"If he wasn't that hard to hurt,"

Again, I don't think anyone is really saying he's not "that hard to hurt".

": the guy's tougher to hurt than Hulk, Thor or anyone else in that class of bruisers, and has been for quite a while."

I'd agree his base invulnerability is higher than the other guys'. That's not at all the same thing as saying that it's impossible for guys like Hulk to hurt him.

"Are you arguing that there is no forcefield? Or are you debating the power of it?"

I'm saying it was a silly plot device that EVERY writer abandoned in the 80s. In fact this was the beginning of the arguments between me and Skarhead -- I mentioned that I thought it was stupid that an invulnerable character would also have a forcefield that kept anyone from touching him. It'd be like if Superman had a jetpack or Wolverine fought with a knife in each hand. And apparently every one of the dozens of writers who have used the character in the last 15-20 years agrees.

"I still maintain that Classic Juggs with his field up cannot be beaten by physical force unless his opponent is essentially more powerful than Cytorak"

Basically the only comic that supports this theory is the one where Thor's godblast does nothing to him -- and that was written by a guy who thought Juggernaut was a mutant.

The forcefield was never consistent. When it first appeared, it protected him from grenades and Cyclops' blast. In his next appearance, impact with a turbine blew it out. In Thor and Spiderman, it was a big bubble that kept anything from touching him at all from a foot away (in Thor it actually appeared to extend out even further with a slowing effect before finally stopping the hammer). 

It was a stupid power, few writers used it, none used it in the same way, and now none use it at all. Why factor it into a discussion like this when no writers of the last decade or two factor it into any encounters with the character?

"That's 6 mentions of his forcefield IN CONTINUITY right there."

Yeah...and two were in the same story, by a writer who thought Juggs was a mutant, and saw him beaten down in under 60 seconds by Thor's fists without it -- is all that accurate too? Or are you just choosing to believe the forcefield stuff and dismissing the rest? In one issue it wasn't even powerful enough to fully protect him from a propellor, and without it he was stunned by a barefoot kick from Beast -- is this what you consider an accurate depiction of the character and his powers? I'm cool with that. Sounds like Hulk wins.

Why does this have to be pointed out to you every single time this comes up?

"However orcus has taken it upon himself to decide that Juggernaut doesn't really possess the forcefield."

No, every writer of the last 20 years or so has taken it upon themselves to decide that. I'm just making the observation.

You guys are big Juggernaut fans and the guy is in 9 billion comics...surely one of you can find ONE actual comic that has any depiction or mention of the forcefield whatsoever since the 80s?

My argument is and always has been: The forcefield idea has been abandoned. Its power and function was NEVER consistent in the slightest even in its (very) few appearances. Either he NEVER turns it on, or it's not that great, because we've seen him hurt, KO'd, had his helmet popped off so he can be psi-blasted, etc -- all things that could have been prevented by a forcefield acting as you claim his does. So it's simply a non-factor in these discussions. 

2/7/13 12:58 AM
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orcus
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Zenoplata - 

The fact that you guys think Juggernaut having a forcefield is an argument FOR him is hilarious.

It makes him a little bitch! You know who else has a force-field!? The Invisible WOMAN.

Juggernaut is like a dumber, fat version of the Invisible Woman without all her bad ass powers like "mind bubbles in people's brains."

I bet he has periods just like her too.

So basically.... Juggernaut is a bitch because he uses forcefields and NOT NEARLY as bad ass as the HULK.

/thread.


lol...basically.

"I'm the toughest guy around! ...but you'll have to take my word for it because I'm hiding inside this giant bubble so you can't touch me."

2/7/13 1:14 AM
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OGTT_Darth YOLO
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JoeHurley -

Hulk was thought to be dead and in disguise which is why he was able to get obver on Doc Ock.  Would be like some old lady starting a fight with you at the store and dropping you with a punch. Later you find out it was Anderson Silva in drag.

Story of my life Phone Post
2/7/13 2:54 PM
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orcus
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Let's make it a little simpler. A lot of you guys keep saying "classic Juggernaut" would do this, or Juggernaut as he is "supposed" to be written would do that.

Which comic appearance in Marvel history do you consider "classic Juggernaut" / Juggernaut being written as he is "supposed" to be?


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