UnderGround Forums
 

S&C UnderGround >> My response to Lance Armstrong n PEDs

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

2/1/13 10:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/01/13 10:03 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12171
ColeMillerATT - 
ArthurKnoqOut - 


5 year ban for testing "positive" in an extremely limited and contreversial test (series of tests, really) is not acceptable either, Mr. Miller.



Ok, im open minded, what would be a fair punishment? i tend to be a bit extreme on this topic.


Definitely extreme.

I don't personally condone its use as a coach. I've always recommended to my athletes to be natural. I don't personally believe that it's necessary for most people where sensible training, a healthy diet, and proper rest can get the job done.

That said, a 5 year MINIMUM ban as written in your article is career ending for most every athlete in nearly any sport. Should an athlete's career be ended because of an infraction like this? Probably not... Especially in MMA, a weight classed sport.

People often take test for faster healing. An athlete who gets a lot of injuries should be sensitive to that. At the highest levels the pressure to perform is extreme and decisions are more complicated than "wake up it's time to fight." You need to think about your future, what happens when you're done, your family, your health...

I don't know what you're doing for your injuries now. It's good that you don't take PEDs and good that you have the honor to take a stance and fight (figuratively and literally) against it, but you should be caring for those injuries before your career is ended by them.
2/1/13 10:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12174
Another issue to consider when taking such a strong stance is where you draw a line.

Everyone does things that "aren't natural" to compete in sports. Vitamins, massages, strength and conditioning... shit even the sport itself isn't natural. We do each of these things to gain an advantage. From a philosophical standpoint, what's different about steroids? It's ok for some athletes to increase their red blood cell count by training in a mountain, but not increase their testosterone with a synthetic hormone? Why? It's ok for someone to reduce swelling to promote healing with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug but not to promote healing with some other drug? Why? What are the important differences?
2/1/13 11:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
1186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31426
Doug is right, why are steroids morally wrong but creatine is not? If its on the banned list, then its cheating, fair enough, but that's the only distinction Phone Post
2/1/13 11:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SCRAPPER
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5607
As usual, Doug is right. I was going to make a longer post about this last night but I wasn't sure the conversation was going that way.

I think the myth of a level playing field is exactly that: a myth. There is always an edge someone has over the other. Whether it's vitamins, coaches, training facility, equipment, money, better gear (as in bikes), you're one of those athletes that only has to focus on your sport while your opponent juggles a job and family, etc. Maybe the other competitor is just flat out driven by things that you can never put in a bottle and there's nothing you can do to match his intensity.

Whatever the reason, there's always an edge. Most of us get bent out of shape because we see the far edge of it all and put a "natural" athlete above one that uses drugs. Sadly, "drugs" are viewed as ok or not by social dictation. I wonder how many of us would head to the Dr. if they legalized something that allowed us to train harder (and hopefully more intelligently) on a regular basis?

As Doug stated, many of us aren't on a strict training schedule like a professional athlete is. There are a lot more factors in play and when your livelihood is dependent on your ability to perform, you look for any way to secure it.

That goes into the next aspect of it. The mental game. Lance could have taken all the drugs he wanted, but he's still the one on the bike. You can't inject that kind of motivation and drive.

While I'm not a huge fan of PEDs, I'm not a hater either. I've worked with clients that have used PEDs, but all I can do is give them my thoughts.

Of course, I've heard the lamentation of how Lance let all those cancer patients down, but that's another topic.
2/1/13 12:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LCSULLA
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/11/03
Posts: 208
RobinHood - 
vermonter - Another issue to consider when taking such a strong stance is where you draw a line.

Everyone does things that "aren't natural" to compete in sports. Vitamins, massages, strength and conditioning... shit even the sport itself isn't natural. We do each of these things to gain an advantage. From a philosophical standpoint, what's different about steroids? It's ok for some athletes to increase their red blood cell count by training in a mountain, but not increase their testosterone with a synthetic hormone? Why? It's ok for someone to reduce swelling to promote healing with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug but not to promote healing with some other drug? Why? What are the important differences?
I draw the line at Roiding is Roiding.

Seriously, those folks who try and blur the argument regarding legal supps, genetic predispositions, maybe even having access to superior facilities is frankly a joke.

Lets not kid ourselves here Roiding is frigin cheating. Phone Post

And if 'roiding was completely legal in the US...you would still say the samething?

The myth is thinking that they are champs becuase they use gear...thats such bullshit. Champs are champs becuase they are better at that activity then anyone else. If you removed all the doping in the world...Lance Armstrong would still have won the Tour.
2/1/13 12:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
180 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/01/13 12:45 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6472

All P.E.D.'s asside...

Winning in athletics is primarily a matter of talent, coaching and game-day readiness. I have been knee-deep in strength & conditioning for 25 years and can confidently say that this is 100% true. I've seen it: great athletes + proper coaching + confidence = wins. You can have the greatest strength and conditioning program on the planet (P.E.D.'s or not), but if you have substandard talent, poor coaching and / or a lack of confidence, you're going to get your ass kicked. The strength and conditioning (P.E.D.) program is essential (injury prevention and leveling the playing field), but it can only do so much. If that was not the case – that is, you won solely on your efforts in the weight room, in conditioning and / or the drugs you take + by a rousing pre-game rah-rah speech -- you could take a group of nuns and win a WNBA Championship.

TAKU
 

P.S. where can one watch the Dave Tate vid?

2/1/13 1:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12177
RobinHood - 
vermonter - Another issue to consider when taking such a strong stance is where you draw a line.

Everyone does things that "aren't natural" to compete in sports. Vitamins, massages, strength and conditioning... shit even the sport itself isn't natural. We do each of these things to gain an advantage. From a philosophical standpoint, what's different about steroids? It's ok for some athletes to increase their red blood cell count by training in a mountain, but not increase their testosterone with a synthetic hormone? Why? It's ok for someone to reduce swelling to promote healing with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug but not to promote healing with some other drug? Why? What are the important differences?
I draw the line at Roiding is Roiding.

Seriously, those folks who try and blur the argument regarding legal supps, genetic predispositions, maybe even having access to superior facilities is frankly a joke.

Lets not kid ourselves here Roiding is frigin cheating. Phone Post

Anything you do that is against the rules to gain an advantage is, by definition, cheating.

I don't condone the use of steroids in athletes because they require considerable care to not incur seriously negative health effects combined with the fact that i find them unnecessary in a weight classed sport. My question is, why are some chemicals ok and others aren't when the goal of taking both to gain an advantage? How big does the advantage need to be before there ought to be a rule against it? How do you quantify the advantage? Are you sure that for a lighter weight fighter like Cole that steroids are a major advantage? How so? Just a guess? What if someone has a legitimate need for testosterone? Are they cheaters? What's the limit for someone like that before they cross the line from totally acceptable to a dirty rotten cheater?

Like i said, the issue is more complex than yelling "CHEATER!" We ought to get over our gut reactions and look at the issue with a critical eye. Perhaps professional athletes taking a stance have an even greater responsibility to do so.
2/1/13 1:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jeremy hamilton
345 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4119
Taku - 

All P.E.D.'s asside...

Winning in athletics is primarily a matter of talent, coaching and game-day readiness. I have been knee-deep in strength & conditioning for 25 years and can confidently say that this is 100% true. I've seen it: great athletes + proper coaching + confidence = wins. You can have the greatest strength and conditioning program on the planet (P.E.D.'s or not), but if you have substandard talent, poor coaching and / or a lack of confidence, you're going to get your ass kicked. The strength and conditioning (P.E.D.) program is essential (injury prevention and leveling the playing field), but it can only do so much. If that was not the case – that is, you won solely on your efforts in the weight room, in conditioning and / or the drugs you take + by a rousing pre-game rah-rah speech -- you could take a group of nuns and win a WNBA Championship.

TAKU
 

P.S. where can one watch the Dave Tate vid?


Very good, I agree.

I would like to add that the mindset of the athlete might be most important of all. Pushing forward and sacrificing everything for a goal. It gets to the point that it's an obsession for elite athletes and I almost view it as a character flaw. But that mindset is needed to win at the highest level and there is not a drug out there that can give you anything like that.
2/1/13 1:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12179
^ yup Jeremy is a "special" guy and look at his success. :)
2/1/13 1:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SCRAPPER
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5608
Yep, the mental game is key.
2/1/13 2:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
180 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6476

" How big does the advantage need to be before there ought to be a rule against it? How do you quantify the advantage? Are you sure that for a lighter weight fighter like Cole that steroids are a major advantage? How so? Just a guess? What if someone has a legitimate need for testosterone? Are they cheaters? What's the limit for someone like that before they cross the line from totally acceptable to a dirty rotten cheater?"

Those are great questions. The fact is that there is a lot of grey area in the world of sports performance etc.

HYPOTHETICAL EAMPLE:

Lets say Athlete X naturally produces 100 units of Test. Athlete Y naturally produces 75 units. Now lets say the "trigger point" for a positive is anything over 150 units. Athlete X can "supplement up to 150 gaining 50 units, while athlete Y can also "supplement" up 150 units allowing a gain 75 units. Both are "clean" according to the tests, however both have gained an advantage. Due to the lower natural production of athlete Y, he has gained a larger advantage while remaining "clean" according to testing protocols (which can be quite arbitray by the way). 

This sort of thing goes on a lot and is part of the reason this is such a crazy mess. Tons of athletes are living in the grey areas through intelligent "supplementation" and or even luck.

I personally feel professional athletes should be allowed to use any means they desire to push the enevelope provided it is all up front and under a doctors supervision.

That's just me.

TAKU

2/1/13 2:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jeremy hamilton
345 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4120
vermonter - ^ yup Jeremy is a "special" guy and look at his success. :)

Haha thanks, but I think "special" is more of a sickness.
2/1/13 4:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
1186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/01/13 4:47 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31430
RobinHood - Hey Taka, why judge differences just on chemical imbalances. Why not also include a fighters reach. Maybe the shorter limbed guys can be given rubber limb extensions. Maybe those with longer gait are given a rope that limits the distance one can move away from an attack.

Yes - I'm being pedantic. Roiding remains cheating because the stuff is so dam effective. Phone Post


Right, so the effectiveness is what you're against.

A trained fighter will beat an untrained roider of the same weight, so training is even more effective. Should training be banned?

Unnatural amounts of protein and creatine are fine simply because they aren't as effective? What is the line for effectiveness? How about gH but not in a stack? Phone Post
2/2/13 12:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gusto
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 35610
LCSULLA - 
RobinHood - 
vermonter - Another issue to consider when taking such a strong stance is where you draw a line.

Everyone does things that "aren't natural" to compete in sports. Vitamins, massages, strength and conditioning... shit even the sport itself isn't natural. We do each of these things to gain an advantage. From a philosophical standpoint, what's different about steroids? It's ok for some athletes to increase their red blood cell count by training in a mountain, but not increase their testosterone with a synthetic hormone? Why? It's ok for someone to reduce swelling to promote healing with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug but not to promote healing with some other drug? Why? What are the important differences?
I draw the line at Roiding is Roiding.

Seriously, those folks who try and blur the argument regarding legal supps, genetic predispositions, maybe even having access to superior facilities is frankly a joke.

Lets not kid ourselves here Roiding is frigin cheating. Phone Post

And if 'roiding was completely legal in the US...you would still say the samething?

The myth is thinking that they are champs becuase they use gear...thats such bullshit. Champs are champs becuase they are better at that activity then anyone else. If you removed all the doping in the world...Lance Armstrong would still have won the Tour.

I dont care about PED use, but i dont buy your final paragraph

you can just follow the coaches that are the best dopers and their success seems to show that some have better methods than others

2/2/13 7:12 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
1186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31440
I don't use creatine or protein powder, so should I insist my opponents don't? Actually I don't care what they use as long as they make weight Phone Post
2/2/13 9:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12181
Are you really confused or just trying to annoy him?
2/2/13 9:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
1186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31441
vermonter - Are you really confused or just trying to annoy him?
He's arguing with emotion, not logic. Phone Post
2/2/13 10:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12183
Leigh - 
vermonter - Are you really confused or just trying to annoy him?
He's arguing with emotion, not logic. Phone Post

I guess....

Isn't he the same guy that got all emotional when that young buff stallion at the gym stopped showing up too?
2/2/13 10:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12187
RobinHood - 
vermonter -
Leigh - 
vermonter - Are you really confused or just trying to annoy him?
He's arguing with emotion, not logic. Phone Post

I guess....

Isn't he the same guy that got all emotional when that young buff stallion at the gym stopped showing up too?
Haha. By the way that young lad has lost his roided muscles. Makes me laugh every time I see that lad. He is now just a skinny spaghetti armed teenager that he was always meant to be.

Back to the topic. At what point have I been emotional. I don't get it. All I'm saying is if you both support cheating (which you do), then compete in comps that favours cheating and don't lie to clean professionals. Phone Post

I didn't say you were emotional. Leigh did. I just think you're an idiot and/or trolling.
2/2/13 11:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/02/13 11:13 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12191
Well you know my stance too, because I put it in writing on this thread. And yet you still claim that a professional coach, and a professional athlete both support cheating on a public forum just because you're trying to be a shithead. That's a dick move asshole.

Go ogle teenage boys and let the men talk.
2/2/13 12:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
1186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31444
Neither of us have advocated cheating. You are emotional because you are not making sense. Answer this question - is it morally wrong to use steroids if the competition does not prohibit them? Phone Post
2/2/13 2:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Leigh
1186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31446
In other words....tuck Phone Post
2/3/13 8:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ArthurKnoqOut
75 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/6/10
Posts: 2257
vermonter - 
ColeMillerATT - 
ArthurKnoqOut - 


5 year ban for testing "positive" in an extremely limited and contreversial test (series of tests, really) is not acceptable either, Mr. Miller.



Ok, im open minded, what would be a fair punishment? i tend to be a bit extreme on this topic.


Definitely extreme.

I don't personally condone its use as a coach. I've always recommended to my athletes to be natural. I don't personally believe that it's necessary for most people where sensible training, a healthy diet, and proper rest can get the job done.

That said, a 5 year MINIMUM ban as written in your article is career ending for most every athlete in nearly any sport. Should an athlete's career be ended because of an infraction like this? Probably not... Especially in MMA, a weight classed sport.

People often take test for faster healing. An athlete who gets a lot of injuries should be sensitive to that. At the highest levels the pressure to perform is extreme and decisions are more complicated than "wake up it's time to fight." You need to think about your future, what happens when you're done, your family, your health...

I don't know what you're doing for your injuries now. It's good that you don't take PEDs and good that you have the honor to take a stance and fight (figuratively and literally) against it, but you should be caring for those injuries before your career is ended by them.

two things.

A. I agree with pretty much everything and great reply to Cole.

I'd like to add that this is a strange conundrum because of the testing. I gotta run so I can't rant or recap on what Conte said on the JRE and in other avenues but he's on point.

Even marijuana (so called "drug tests") are so easy to get around that it's a joke to even administrate them thinking that you're going to catch someone. Same with drug tests, especially urine. So if someone slips up or gets an injection from dubious doctors then you can't be that militant, IMHO.

I think the only way to ever guarantee an even playing field is RIDICULOUSLY rigirous, blood, tests but that will never happen. If people get away with it at the pinnacle of the sports world, like the Olympics then there's no hope...for now.

I also like your mention of "at the highest level". I got to work with Jordan Burroughs prior and immediately after the Olympics and I remember talking to someone about his "all I see is gold" attitude (and Twitter name lol) and this person ( a SnC guy) goes "with so much hype and pressure do you think an athlete in his place would truly be all high and mighty about getting an edge or very least, leveling the playing field?". NOT SAYING THAT I THINK HE WAS JUICING. I was a huge fan of Burroughs and even being in his presence as a collegiate wrestling fan was amazing but it just put it prespective for me.

 

B. RobinHood trolls, sometimes. lol

2/4/13 12:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12202
^

A. The pressure is extreme. I wasn't even competing at that level, just coaching and it was intense. Basically, it takes everything you have to get there, and if you don't make it you have nothing left as a result. It's no wonder that getting better sleep and reducing stress was a big part of my routine for fighters...

B. Some people just aren't used to having adult conversations I guess.
2/4/13 12:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
266 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12203
but you will never be allowed to go near impressionable high-school or college athletes if your dared be so open with your stance.


Are you trying to say the only reason you have a public stance against roids is so that you can get closer to young boys without raising red flags? Because that's how this reads, and makes a lot of sense.

I am unconcerned with who I will coach. I have already coached amazing athletes at all levels, and my stance is no secret. I'll give you this though, i've been successfully duped into wasting my time on a bunch of nonsense from a sad little man. I'll admit you win that round. Bravo.

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.