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S&C UnderGround >> My response to Lance Armstrong n PEDs


2/4/13 12:39 PM
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LCSULLA
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Taku - 

All P.E.D.'s asside...

Winning in athletics is primarily a matter of talent, coaching and game-day readiness. I have been knee-deep in strength & conditioning for 25 years and can confidently say that this is 100% true. I've seen it: great athletes + proper coaching + confidence = wins. You can have the greatest strength and conditioning program on the planet (P.E.D.'s or not), but if you have substandard talent, poor coaching and / or a lack of confidence, you're going to get your ass kicked. The strength and conditioning (P.E.D.) program is essential (injury prevention and leveling the playing field), but it can only do so much. If that was not the case – that is, you won solely on your efforts in the weight room, in conditioning and / or the drugs you take + by a rousing pre-game rah-rah speech -- you could take a group of nuns and win a WNBA Championship.

TAKU
 

P.S. where can one watch the Dave Tate vid?


Taku:

Youtube has it. Dave Tate human potential. He talks how you can only use this ace once.

2/4/13 12:46 PM
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LCSULLA
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gusto - 
LCSULLA - 
RobinHood - 
vermonter - Another issue to consider when taking such a strong stance is where you draw a line.

Everyone does things that "aren't natural" to compete in sports. Vitamins, massages, strength and conditioning... shit even the sport itself isn't natural. We do each of these things to gain an advantage. From a philosophical standpoint, what's different about steroids? It's ok for some athletes to increase their red blood cell count by training in a mountain, but not increase their testosterone with a synthetic hormone? Why? It's ok for someone to reduce swelling to promote healing with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug but not to promote healing with some other drug? Why? What are the important differences?
I draw the line at Roiding is Roiding.

Seriously, those folks who try and blur the argument regarding legal supps, genetic predispositions, maybe even having access to superior facilities is frankly a joke.

Lets not kid ourselves here Roiding is frigin cheating. Phone Post

And if 'roiding was completely legal in the US...you would still say the samething?

The myth is thinking that they are champs becuase they use gear...thats such bullshit. Champs are champs becuase they are better at that activity then anyone else. If you removed all the doping in the world...Lance Armstrong would still have won the Tour.

I dont care about PED use, but i dont buy your final paragraph

you can just follow the coaches that are the best dopers and their success seems to show that some have better methods than others


Sorry gusto, but I am going to disagree. Most of the coaches that train world champs, do it becuase they had some success and built their brand.

Take Jackson's MMA. They have had the success they do because top talent goes there to train. Not becuase they dope better then other gyms.

Look PED's arent going to turn me in Bo Jackson or someone into Alexander Karelin...they just wont.

Will they increase my abilities...sure. But if I didn't have world class abilities before, PED's wont make me Superman.
2/4/13 8:19 PM
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419
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The best of the best are all talented and hard-working, so better PEDs can make a difference.
2/5/13 7:42 AM
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LCSULLA
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RobinHood -  It's interesting how Team Roider continue to side-step the argument that Roiders are cheaters. By supporting Roiding athletes, they stick two fingers up to those athletes who don't.

Team Roiders will argue that Roids are safe, Roids are for recovery only, Roids is the shame as whole milk etc.

Keep up the subterfuge gentleman. Phone Post

The probelm with this argument is, after a certian level, virtually everyone is one something. Its just too easy to get.

But do I agree with you? Yes I do. I was at a grappling tourny years ago and was watching the masters and seniors no-gi and half the dudes there were on PED's. 42 yr olds walkinga round at shredded 200+lbs. And after being in out of gyms all my life, I can tell when someone is 'on'. Did I think it was fair...fuck no I didn't. And I wouldnt want a medal if I was on PED's.

But when there is millions of dollars on the line, most people don't feel the same way. And I don't know what my view would be if I was 21 again and competeing for Olympic gold.
2/5/13 9:42 AM
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Leigh
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Edited: 02/05/13 9:43 AM
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RobinHood - I have little argument.
2/5/13 10:25 AM
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vermonter
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RobinHood -  It's interesting how Team Roider continue to side-step the argument that Roiders are cheaters. By supporting Roiding athletes, they stick two fingers up to those athletes who don't.

Team Roiders will argue that Roids are safe, Roids are for recovery only, Roids is the shame as whole milk etc.

Keep up the subterfuge gentleman. Phone Post

Alright, now you're blatanlty trolling on a thread populated by professional fighters, coaches, and long time members. I'm a nice guy but i'm at my limit, and will happily call for your banning if you choose to continue on this or any other thread I see you trying this shit on.

It's interesting how Team Roider continue to side-step the argument that Roiders are cheaters


Not one single person has said doing steroids isn't cheating. Both of the people you are attempting to troll have stated on this thread that it is cheating.

Team Roiders will argue that Roids are safe


No, i've said that i believe it to carry negative health consequences, again, on this thread.

Roids are for recovery only


Not one person has said this.

Roids is the shame as whole milk


Not one person has said this.

Because it is clear to me that you aren't just slow, but you are actually trying to get a rise out of people for your personal entertainment, which is in violation of this forums rules, I'm going to ask you this last time to stop.
2/5/13 6:59 PM
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BlackJesus
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FJJ828 -
Kevin Curtis - 
Leigh -  Lance was a cock for going after people who accused him Phone Post

What Leigh said... I find his treatment of these people to be worse than the actual use of the PEDs.

Ditto. Fuck Lance.

I grew up racing USCF before it was USA Cycling and was always a big fan of Lemond and Steve Bauer. Lemond got absolutely crushed by the Lance train and as it turns out, was right all along.

 

Do you think Lemond was dirty? I have started read a book called seven deadly sins and they talk about having to be on drugs to compete on the 80s they haven't come out and said that he was dirty but It seems like they hint at it. Phone Post
2/9/13 1:37 PM
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Taku
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Edited: 02/09/13 7:47 PM
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Final thoughts on all of this.

Most of what we consider to be PED's were not illegal until after 1985 (Olympics etc.). The drugs have been in sports since the 1960's for sure. Starting primarily in strength and power sports (weightlifting, track and field) and spreading out from there. There are thousands of things that are done to enhance performance (as some have already said); Improvements in technology (clothes, equipment, running surfaces,) food, training, supplementation. If this stuff (certain substances) had never been made illegal, then none of us would be talking about it.

Looking at the headlines on the mma.tv forum re: Belfort & TRT, it's not like this stuff turns you into superman. They are human, they don't suddenly gain the power of ten men or the ability to punch through a wall. The actual advantages gained (by the time you are standing in the cage, sitting on your bike, etc.) are small, not huge.

I have my own feelings about this and am not going to try and sway anyone to my way of thinking. That being said, I do not believe that seeking an advantage or attempting to enhance human performance by any means available, is ever going to go away.

Finally...I watched the Dave Tate vids. I like a lot of what he says. He is not always the most articulant guy...but he seems like a no B.S. coach. I appreciate that.

YES...Lemond was doing whatever he could to win. Cycling as a sport has pushed the envelope of performance enhancement since its inception.

 

PAU for NOW

TAKU

2/12/13 12:20 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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vermonter - Another issue to consider when taking such a strong stance is where you draw a line.

Everyone does things that "aren't natural" to compete in sports. Vitamins, massages, strength and conditioning... shit even the sport itself isn't natural. We do each of these things to gain an advantage. From a philosophical standpoint, what's different about steroids? It's ok for some athletes to increase their red blood cell count by training in a mountain, but not increase their testosterone with a synthetic hormone? Why? It's ok for someone to reduce swelling to promote healing with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug but not to promote healing with some other drug? Why? What are the important differences?

Top level cyclists can afford to get oxygen deficiency tents, take training vacations to South America and Tenerife.

They can afford wind-tunnel testing, expensive state of the art skin suits.

They can hire nutritionists, top of the line masseuses, commission bike companies to make special bikes. They can even pay other teams under that table (commonplace) to help them pull up a mountain stage.

They can afford top-of-the-line physiological testing, feedback, and special coaches, and the top Directors Sportif.

Isn't all that an 'unfair' advantage, unavailable to the normal domestique or even top rider on a less well-funded team?

 

2/15/13 9:14 AM
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Wiggy
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Holy shit at what this thread turned into since the last time I posted.  Wow.

RobinHood - I admire your ardent anti-PED stance, but you come off sounding like an absolute clown.  If you're indeed serious and not trolling as Doug says you are, you're likely taking any "fence-sitters" (to quote a term you used) and shoving them in the other direction - not pulling them toward yours.  You're doing yourself and the "cause" (for lack of a better term) you want to support more harm than good.  

As far as creating a "level playing field" goes - it wll just never happen.  Ever.

Was listening to Tim Ferriss' latest appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast the other day, and they touched on this topic.  TF looked at it in a way that I'd never really thought of before.  This would never be possible, but if you *really* wanted to make it a level playing field, you'd have to test everyone - see who had the absolute best markers via blood test.  Then, allow everyone else to dope to that same exact level.  This would mean Guy A would get to dope this much, Guy B would get to dope that much, and so on.

That would be more "level" than just allowing everyone to dope as they want.  

Another idea I heard this week (I think it was in this podcast - I've listened to that one, part of TF on London Real, Geoff Thompson on London Real, Dorian Yates on London Real, and started London Real on Joe Rogan, so I don't totally remember what I've heard where lol) was that at elite levels of bodybuilding, one of the genetic traits that determines winners isn't the ones most predisposed to building muscle.  (Things like aesthetics, muscle insertion points, natural symetery, etc aside.)  The genetic trait that predisposes winning bodybuilders to be winners ends up moving away from who can best build muscle to who best can handle excessive amounts of drug use.  Meaning that some guys will be able to handle way more than what other guys can.

Because of this, everyone will always dope at different levels.  Hell, even if everyone doped at the same level, eveyrone is still starting from different points and abilities, so those differences still pervade.  Rogan said something about Jon Jones having a massive reach advantage at his weight class.  How do you level that playing field?  You don't.

Then you have the basic subject of "legality" (or whatever you want to call it).  Many people like to talk about PED use in relation to the sport their competing in.  But what about the legality of it in the first place?  What if a substance isn't banned by whatever league/fed/governing body you compete in, yet it's against the law in the country in which you live to take it?  What if it's vice versa?  Which set of rules should one abide by?

In the end, I still don't condone PED use.  But anyone that thinks taking PEDs is gonna automatically turn you into Superman without massive amounts of hard work is naive.  That or just plain ignorant.

Wiggy - http://www.workingclassfitness.com

2/15/13 11:12 AM
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jeremy hamilton
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Wiggy will ban you if you don't comment...Your move Mr. Hood.
2/15/13 11:17 AM
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vermonter
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RH - You are allowed to whine and act like a child as much as you want, just like you did in that post. You can also pretend you are some martyr all you like.

What you cannot do is libel professional athletes and coaches on a public forum. That isn't just against forum rules, it could also be against the law if you continue down this path.

My recommendation to you is to grow up. If the forum requires you to act in a more mature way than you are prepared for, then you should find a different way to spend your time.
2/15/13 11:56 AM
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Leigh
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RobinHood - Wiggy, it's plain and simple you fail to comprehend the word libel. And as you have taken my comments out of context, it is obvious what colours your sport. Phone Post
What's Wiggy said?

You're ill equipped to debate. Phone Post
2/15/13 12:35 PM
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vermonter
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RobinHood -  Wiggy, it's plain and simple you fail to comprehend the word libel. And as you have taken my comments out of context, it is obvious what colours your sport. Phone Post

uh...








...what?
2/15/13 1:54 PM
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Wiggy
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Wiggy will ban you if you don't comment...Your move Mr. Hood.

Red name notwithstanding, my mod status is probably just ceremonial at best, as I have no real mod powers anymore.  Might stem from a while back when I blasted Kevin Kearns a few times for only ever showing up to spam his seminars, but then was out of nowhere made the "official S&C consultant" to the site when a bunch of us long-time members not only contributed a shitload to the site over the years, but never even knew such an opportunity was available.  Whatever.  lol

Wiggy, it's plain and simple you fail to comprehend the word libel.

Welll considering it was Doug that mentioned libel in the first place - not me - I think it's plain and simple that you fail to comprehend how to read.  But whatever - you're getting good at making an asshat out of yourself.

I hate it for Cole that his thread turned into such a trainwreck, as at one time, it was a pretty good discussion.  Would be happy to get back to a real discussion if the dumbfuckery could cease.

2/15/13 2:21 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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Wiggy- Your mod powers are still real to me damnit.
2/15/13 5:05 PM
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ravenman2000
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WidespreadPanic - 

They can even pay other teams under that table (commonplace) to help them pull up a mountain stage.

 

I don't know much about cycling; can you explain what this means?

 

2/15/13 6:58 PM
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Wiggy
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jeremy hamilton - Wiggy- Your mod powers are still real to me damnit.

Me, too brother. Me, too. lol

As an aside, how do I contact you? Would like to talk training, see what you're up to, and such.
2/15/13 10:20 PM
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Taku
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Man....I wrote a long ass post on here...Then my F~!@#$% computer crashed.

Sigh...

Don't think I can rehash all the thoughts I was having.

Damn!

TAKU

2/19/13 9:54 AM
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jeremy hamilton
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Wiggy - 
jeremy hamilton - Wiggy- Your mod powers are still real to me damnit.

Me, too brother. Me, too. lol

As an aside, how do I contact you? Would like to talk training, see what you're up to, and such.

We are friends on FB, send me a message anytime.

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