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UnderGround Forums >> Guida vs Hioki: Robbery of the Year candidate


1/28/13 8:50 PM
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Wasa-B
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I believe Keita Nakamura also lost a couple of close ones where he was quite active off his back but got the Ls. I would also say that, in the case of the Japanese fighters, I wouldnt necessarily say all those decisions have been due to national/ethnic bias because the stylistic bias is also def at play (top/bottom) but Fukuda/Ring, Omigawa/Elkins were largely spent with Fukuda and Omigawa outboxing their opponents so those arent in with the stylistic argument.

The only 2 UFC fights I can recall were the Japanese guys have gotten the nod on close calls were Sexy over Belcher and Hioki over Roop. I think both of those were close enough to go either way though. I also recall watching Sexy/Belcher again not too long ago and did not think it was implausible at all that he got the nod, Belcher def did not dunk that decision. Hioki did not either over Clay though but i do think Clay can def consider himself lucky. I think you could tell Hioki knew he got lucky vs Roop, he did not look happy about that performance at all.

So while I wouldnt sound the "that's racist!" alarm here, IMO there has been enough questionable decisions going against the Japanese, throwing Nam Phan in there as well, that there is a bias against the Asian fighters. Didnt see the fight but didnt Dongi Yang also lose a pretty questionable one?

But hometown decisions are nothing new either.
1/28/13 9:20 PM
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circulation123
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Wasa-B - 
circulation123 - 
Wasa-B - "When I say Judging criteria in this context-I guess I mean a pattern in which the how the judges have judged the fight. You can argue about the actual judging criteria. Or you can argue about the way it is applied. I see argument for both."

Ok so its not really the criteria, the "pattern" is the bias or the lense or the usual way they view it, right?

"But there is a pattern that all fighters and coaches are aware. Historically, the judges gave more credit for top control over sub attempt from the bottom.
Verrismo vs Hughes
Torres VS DJ
Sanchez vs Fitch
Guida vs Pettis."

But in which of those fights did the bottom guy deserve to win? I believe Hughes should have lost the Charuto fight but i think there it was only r2 that was in question, Charuro nearly tapped Hughes in R1 iirc but Hughes should have won R3 as he completely controlled, had half or sidemount? And also had a kimura attempt. Clay of course, didnt really do anything of the sort.

Diego/Fitch ws a good example actually, im not sure if Diego did enough to win but i remember that Diego was very active from his back and that all Fitch was doing was defending/reacting to what Diego was doing.

Yeah, of course we know the UFC judges are completely biased to top position and it should not surprise anyone. However Hioki of all people lost to Lamas and he spent some time on top of Lamas though Lamas nearly guillotined Hioki. Hioki had the only sub attempts of the fight from his guard of course too.

Anyhow, its done and at least most people thought Hioki won and that Clay will have an asterix beside this "W" but i think the real question is if there is any real effort to improve the judging. I mean 8 years ago, maybe but NOW? A judge for a UFC still cant recognize a sub attempt and what that means compared to simply being on top of someone in full guard and doing shit?

Look I can dig up more fights and go on and on. Of course each fight is different in its own way but those examples I mentioned above have a common element that I was talking about.
 
I’m not saying that original judging criteria should be set in stone. I think there is a room for improvement.
I’m not saying that judges have applied them the way we want them to either. But we DO have to acknowledge that it IS how the AC sees it and therefore it is in some sense THE JUDGING CRITEIRA. As it stands that is how the fights are judged.
 
Hioki and any knowledgeable MMA fan knew that BEFORE the fight. I’m not aware of any big meeting or discussions about possible changes to the official judging criteria or even how it was going to be applied in recent weeks leading up to this fight. So therefore the fighters knew how the fight was going to be judged. The way it looks now , its not going to be changed anytime soon either.
 
So if you are Hioki fan, rather than complain about the decision, the proactive thing to think about is how Hioki should adapt to the current system.   Fans can put asterisk on his “L” all they want and whine about it but the “L” is going to stand the way it is.

You're right and I have, in fact said, that it is BS but that I wasnt surprised. However, taking into consideration that has time goes on and the sport becomes bigger, the awareness or level of judging should also be expected to improve. You have had Dana publicly criticizing it for a while.

And I have also noted myself that Hioki should have been more aware of this and been more active off his back for longer periods of time.

As far as the "criteria," this is more of a semantic thing, but strictly speaking, the way the judges (and not the ACs specifically) see it is their "interpretation" or "perspective." Again, semantics and I know what you;'re saying, "precedent" even but i see the "criteria" as whatever is written in the rules. And of course, we all know the UFC judges have been biased towards the top position. Yes.

As far the as the asterix and Ls and Ws, of course, the Ls and Ws stand unless overturned but just like boxing, the real fans remember the actual fights and not just the decisions. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it should be more commendable to understand the sport and give your own opinion of how a fight went and not just looking up Ws and Ls.

You should also however not be surprised that people complain about BS decisions. BS is still BS. And if you noticed, many people were posting they thought Hioki took this round but that they thought the judges would see it differently.

Okay so we both are agreeing for the most part. But not 100% .And we are using a different languages sometime.
 
I am kind of surprised a little actually. I don’t remember people complaining this much about similar fights that I talked about on earlier posts that I used as an example. At least not this much. I feel like people are complaining because of Guida’s previous fight with Maynard.
 
To say that current system needs an overhaul- I’m not surprised. And I agree.
 
For people to say that under a CURRENT SYSTEM, Hioki should have won- even though there’s HUNDREDS of precedent for this type of judging-   I am a little surprised and dismayed.
 
It’s a 2 separate issue and people are confusing it and too emotional about it.
 
Dana has been criticizing it for a while –yes- but I don’t see it changing for now. At least not in 2013. SO THE FIGHTERS MUST BE REALISTIC ABOUT IT TO AVOID THIS KIND OF LOSS. Because that is the way it is and I don’t want to hear fighters and fans whine about it when they should be proactive and do something about it. The record is going to stay the same.
 
As for my mention of asterisk on “L”-Even though Dana questioned the decision, I don’t think the UFC is going to treat it as Hioki’s win like he did with Nam Phan vs Garcia or Kampmann vs. Diego. In the long ran –and that’s the keyword here-the UFC will treat it as a loss and move on. The fans should talk about how Hioki should improve his striking to cause more damage, improve his footwork to make it hard to wrestlers to take him down, and how he should develop explosive muscles so he can get up from the bottom like he should have instead of whining about it.
1/28/13 11:46 PM
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Another Foob
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I don't think a player in his opponent's guard should be considered "on top". There are some guys (JBJ, GSP) who can do a lot of dammage from that position. But generally speaking, the guy on bottom has more control.

If the guy on top is mounting an effective offense (i.e. doing dammage), then score him accordingly. Otherwise, he's not exhibiting effective striking, effective grappling, ringmanship, or aggression.
1/29/13 12:04 AM
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mestregruber
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Hughes won R2 against Charuto, a round he spent almost entirely caught in a tight triangle choke that to this day I don't know how he survived. The judging was a joke back then and hasn't improved. Phone Post
1/29/13 12:05 AM
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mestregruber
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^^^That is to say, at least one judge gave Hughes all 3 rounds vs. Charuto. Phone Post
2/13/13 9:02 PM
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TrevorRice
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just re-watched. Hioki definatly won, too many points are given for TD. Guida did nothing with those take downs and Hioki was way active off his back. Total BS!
2/13/13 10:46 PM
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RandyIsMyDad
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I was at that Charuto fight and it was BS. I thought Hioki got robbed badly. Guida's bouncing and hugging shouldn't have been enough to counter all the sub attempts and controlling the action on the ground by Hioki.
2/13/13 11:21 PM
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circulation123
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TrevorRice - just re-watched. Hioki definatly won, too many points are given for TD. Guida did nothing with those take downs and Hioki was way active off his back. Total BS!

See my post above. If he faces another strong wrestler with decent sub-defense, and assuming that Hioki stays the same, Hioki WILL get dominated again and loses a decision. Maybe not even with split decision but with UD. And he will most likely be released from UFC. What are you guys going to do then? Cry and whine about it?
 
The constructive thing to talk about is how Hioki can avoid those kinds of losses with current scoring criteria because I don’t see the criteria changing before his next fight. Maybe talk about having more effective footwork to better utilize his reach and avoid getting taken down. Or maybe talk about developing explosive muscles to get back up to feet instead of playing guard game for all 3 rounds and losing decision. Personally, I think he needs to change his camp.
2/14/13 1:46 AM
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MdGeist
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big_roy_fan - guida clearly won.

i scored round 1 10-9 hioki
rounds 2 and 3 10-9 guida

if you think he lost, you are wrong, he won.

If you thought Guida won, you should probably check out this thread: Petition to Cut Clay Guida

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=2123204

The vast majority of the UG thinks your wrong bro.

2/14/13 2:07 AM
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Wasa-B
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circulation123 - 
TrevorRice - just re-watched. Hioki definatly won, too many points are given for TD. Guida did nothing with those take downs and Hioki was way active off his back. Total BS!

See my post above. If he faces another strong wrestler with decent sub-defense, and assuming that Hioki stays the same, Hioki WILL get dominated again and loses a decision. Maybe not even with split decision but with UD. And he will most likely be released from UFC. What are you guys going to do then? Cry and whine about it?
 
The constructive thing to talk about is how Hioki can avoid those kinds of losses with current scoring criteria because I don’t see the criteria changing before his next fight. Maybe talk about having more effective footwork to better utilize his reach and avoid getting taken down. Or maybe talk about developing explosive muscles to get back up to feet instead of playing guard game for all 3 rounds and losing decision. Personally, I think he needs to change his camp.

Dominated.....again?
2/14/13 2:25 AM
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circulation123
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Wasa-B - 
circulation123 - 
TrevorRice - just re-watched. Hioki definatly won, too many points are given for TD. Guida did nothing with those take downs and Hioki was way active off his back. Total BS!

See my post above. If he faces another strong wrestler with decent sub-defense, and assuming that Hioki stays the same, Hioki WILL get dominated again and loses a decision. Maybe not even with split decision but with UD. And he will most likely be released from UFC. What are you guys going to do then? Cry and whine about it?
 
The constructive thing to talk about is how Hioki can avoid those kinds of losses with current scoring criteria because I don’t see the criteria changing before his next fight. Maybe talk about having more effective footwork to better utilize his reach and avoid getting taken down. Or maybe talk about developing explosive muscles to get back up to feet instead of playing guard game for all 3 rounds and losing decision. Personally, I think he needs to change his camp.

Dominated.....again?

Well at least in the view of judges.
 
You have to take into an account that Hioki DID NOT want to be on his back. And he was nowhere as aggressive or close to finishing fights from his guard compared to Sanchez or Verrisimo against Fitch and Hughes. And those guys STILL lost.
 
Like I said it’s one thing to complain about the scoring criteria.
 
It’s another thing to complain about the results of Hioki/Guida based on those criteria when precedents shows that judges have favored top control over guard work. I’m talking about HUNDREDS of precedents.
 
We should be talking about how Hioki could improve his game if/when he faces strong wrestlers with good sub defense.

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