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UnderGround Forums >> Guida vs Hioki: Robbery of the Year candidate


1/27/13 11:03 AM
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MdGeist
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Along with KJ Noons vs Ryan Couture, Guida vs Hioki has has now become the 2nd candidate for Robbery of the Year.

If you don't believe me, just look at the stats:

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4164

 
Round 1: Hioki lands a total of 31 strikes to Guida's 16 strikes. 26 of those 31 strikes landed by Hioki were significant strikes while Guida's only significant offense was a takedown and brief ground control: 10-9 for Hioki without a doubt
 
Round 2: Hioki lands a total of 23 strikes to Guida's 12 strikes. 10 of those 23 strikes landed by Hioki were significant strikes. Guida got a TD, controlled Hioki on the ground, but landed only a half dozen insignificant ground strikes in top position while Hioki had the more active, offensive guard as the stats suggest. Guida stalled and layed in guard for nearly 3 minutes while Hioki neuralized all of Guida's offense, out-struck him from off his back, and was actively seeking for a subs. and sweeps: 10-9 for Hioki for being the more overall aggresive, active fighter and the more effective striker. 
 
Round 3: Hioki lands 20 strikes to Guida's 12 and has the slight edge in significant strikes with 5 compared to Guida's 4. While Hioki outstruck Guida, had the more active ground game, and neutralized all of Guida's offense, one could make the case that Guida won the round. While Guida stalled for most of the 3rd round to run down the clock, he did control Hioki for a long duration of that round and had one succesful TD: Even if he was stalling, 10-9 for Guida is fair, but a 10-10 round isn't out of the question as Hioki was the more effective striker and Guida had little to no offense other than maintaining top position.
 
The fight was competitive but based upon the data available, this fight should have been 29-28 or 30-28 Hioki.
1/27/13 11:05 AM
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xakx
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forget robbery of the year, it might be in the top 3 robberies in UFC history! (not sure what other 2 would be but i'm sure there are plenty to choose from that can make it to top 3)
1/27/13 11:05 AM
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TDogg926
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Takedowns. My friend. Takedowns. Phone Post
1/27/13 11:10 AM
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Saltyballs
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Until judges are trained to see an active guard and strikes from the bottom as OFFENSE, then we will continue to have terrible decisions.

Judging reform has to take place in order for this to stop. Hioki was the clear winner. Phone Post
1/27/13 11:16 AM
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atlantis_ninjah
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good breakdown, in juijitsu hioki would have had the advantage having the gaurd, since its mma it is normal for the guy on top to have the advantage because you can still land good gnp even when trapped in gaurd, he diddnt though Guida has the least threatening top game in all of mma, the most pain you would feel is having to gag from dealing with his disgusting, greasy hair.

His gaurd pass attempts were the most pathetic, weak thing I have ever seen, his only chance was to posture up and do a real gaurd pass but he would have gotten submitted if he did that, I dont even think he was really trying to pass gaurd I think he was just trying to look "busy" so that he wouldn't get stood up
1/27/13 11:17 AM
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UGCTT_Capnsavem
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top 3? no way.

Bisping vs Hammill was way worse.

also:

Leonard Garcia vs Phan
Machida vs Rua 1
Vera vs Couture
Sanchez vs Kampmann

I could go on... Phone Post
1/27/13 11:18 AM
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simonpe
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He's on top = He's winning

//US MMA
1/27/13 11:38 AM
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Jaybrone
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The Noons fight wasn't even a candidate for robbery of the year when it happened. And now it is clearly not as bad as this. THere where 2 rounds in that fight that where close and one Noons dominated. With the 10pt  must system it was not a robbery. It was a close fight that could have gone either way. In fact as it was happening in the third round I predicted it, on the thread here. Noons was coasting in the third, thinking he won the first two rounds. When the first was way to close for him to do that. I personally thought Noons won but a fight that could reasonably be argued the other way is not a robbery.

As Capnsavem said there have been MUCH worse decisions in the UFC. And if by th end of the year you are remembering either one of those fights as worst decision of the year with the shear number of events out there I would be shocked.

1/27/13 11:42 AM
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MdGeist
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Unfortunately, we have judges like Gabriel Sabaitis who scored this fight 30-27 for Guida simply because Guida got a takedown and had top control in each round, despite the fact that he made no sub.attmepts, landed only about a dozen ground strikes in the whole fight, made little to no effort to progress the fight once establishing top-control, and launched no significant offense compared to Hioki. 
 
And we have to deal with judges like Jose Tabora who gave Guida the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounds in his fight against Maynard simply because he "out-struck" him by a margin of 3-4 extra air-jabs in the 1st and 2nd round, despite the fact that Guida displayed extreme timidity, failed miserably in the criteria of aggression in every single round, had absolutely no octagon control at any point in the fight, and had no real significant offense outside of some weak leg-kicks and the occasional air-jab that connected with Maynard's arms.
 
I don't blame Guida for playing the game, but when you have the combination of incompetent judges who fail to use the proper criteria to score fights, and an imcopetent ref. that fails to penalize a fighter for timidity or fails to reset the fighters when there is an obvious stalemate/intentional stalling, you are going to have guys like Guida that will exploit the rules to get the edge on the scorecards.
1/27/13 11:46 AM
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BshMstr
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off the top of my head, Hioki won based off the UFC judging critera.... effective striking, grappling, aggression and cage control.... he obviously outstruck Guida, he was aggressivley going for the submission or KO....


i don't think this was a case of favoritism towards wrestling-i think it was a case of judges simply not reading how they were supposed to judge the fight.....
1/27/13 11:51 AM
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Saltyballs
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It just rubbed me the wrong way to see Guida bounce back to his corner after each round holding up a finger for each round the thought he won. Like he just put "another one in the books" after getting out struck 2-1 and fighting off Hioki's guard.

That's exactly the kind of BS that makes fans think you're just point fighting for the decision. Phone Post
1/27/13 11:55 AM
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caseharts
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Did I like it? No. Should the rules change a bit? Yes. But that wasnt robbery of the year. Noons got robbed way harder. There is no comparison Phone Post
1/27/13 12:09 PM
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Proteus The Invincible
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Offensively, the only significant things I saw Guida do in that match were land a solid knee and a big slam. Nearly everything else he did revolved around stalling and shutting down the fight, and once again, the judges rewarded him for it. From my perspective, Guida's on a four fight losing streak.
1/27/13 12:11 PM
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NiteProwleR
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Guida blanket works again.
1/27/13 1:14 PM
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MdGeist
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This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

1/27/13 1:22 PM
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Forever12er
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MURICA Phone Post
1/27/13 1:28 PM
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JCON
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Judging does need an overhaul. I new guida would get the win due to past performances and how judges work. But in my heart I knew hioki did more.

Nullifying opponents top game and attacking with submissions = guy on bottom winning.

And Vera vs. Couture was the worst IMO Phone Post
1/27/13 1:32 PM
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caseharts
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MdGeist -
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This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post
1/27/13 1:34 PM
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daba
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Missed the Noons fight so for me it definitely is a robbery Phone Post
1/27/13 1:38 PM
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cward81386
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when will the changing of the garb happen in judging? When will this new breed of mma judges come up?
1/27/13 1:39 PM
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Wasa-B
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R2 was where Hioki had the locked and isolated kimura and then he switched to armbar position. He also ended the round with the high kick, the biggest strike of the match.

R2 or R3 is where Hioki locked mission control or high guard and also had one leg up and was threating with a triangle/armbar. There was also a period where with that high guard control, Hioki was GNPing from his guard on Clay and that looked to be where Clay got cut - I hope the judges didnt think Hioki was bleeding because Clay was dripping down on him.

The ONLY thing I would say not in DEFENSE of the judges but IN LINE with how they normally view is that when Clay did spend the majority of time on top, Hioki was not active enough for extended periods of time but I think he at least did enough with each period in the guard with sub and/or sweep attempts and control and reverse GNP to have at LEAST made it a wash. R2 was CLEARLY in his favour when he had the kimura to armbar attempt and nearly ever single GNP attempt as well as passing attempt was DENIED.

Clay only got half guard in R3 and Hatsu got full guard back and briefly threatened with a mount reversal.

Also, the fckin big "ooooo" slam? Clay did not even get full control on the ground after that! Hioki immediately went to a switch position which is a fckin neutral position.

So when they went to "Move of the Night": of course, all they had was the tds that Clay did shit all with, all the strikes and submission attempts were overshadowed by Clay's tds, some that he didnt even establish full position control after.

The other thing is that Hioki lost to Lamas being on top and fighting off sub attempts. I think Lamas won but Hioki must be thinking cant win on top or bottom.
1/27/13 1:41 PM
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Wasa-B
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caseharts - 
MdGeist -
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This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
1/27/13 1:43 PM
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Wasa-B
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People, dont overlook the fact that Hioki lost a decision to Lamas spending lots of time on top but being caught in a couple guillotine attempts.

Again, i think Lamas rightfully won but its so ironic how one of the count on one hand times the UFC judges give the bottom guy the nod, its the same guy they screw next fight when he had multiple sub attempts throughout the fight from the bottom.
1/27/13 1:47 PM
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BJ bashed into McDs mincemeat
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Damn guida was painful to watch, hope hioki gets a better fight next Phone Post
1/27/13 2:13 PM
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caseharts
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Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
MdGeist -
Pork Sword - 

This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

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