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UnderGround Forums >> Guida vs Hioki: Robbery of the Year candidate


1/27/13 2:14 PM
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caseharts
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Wasa-B - People, dont overlook the fact that Hioki lost a decision to Lamas spending lots of time on top but being caught in a couple guillotine attempts.

Again, i think Lamas rightfully won but its so ironic how one of the count on one hand times the UFC judges give the bottom guy the nod, its the same guy they screw next fight when he had multiple sub attempts throughout the fight from the bottom.
Lamas was far more active than hioki though I do agree. Lamas stand up significantly played into that win too Phone Post
1/27/13 2:15 PM
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caseharts
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caseharts -
Wasa-B -
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MdGeist -
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This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post
Or what lamas did to hioki. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:19 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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"Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent

1/27/13 2:22 PM
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caseharts
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Gokudamus stole my name - "Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent

No. When all is equal the guy on top is winning. But if a guy is throwing up subs and hiting sweeps then ya hes winning. If neither are advancing then top guy has a slight edge imo Phone Post
1/27/13 2:23 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - "Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent

No. When all is equal the guy on top is winning. But if a guy is throwing up subs and hiting sweeps then ya hes winning. If neither are advancing then top guy has a slight edge imo Phone Post

So you think by laying on some dude, you won a fight? Do you live in North Hollywood brah?

1/27/13 2:25 PM
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Wasa-B
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caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - "Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent

No. When all is equal the guy on top is winning. But if a guy is throwing up subs and hiting sweeps then ya hes winning. If neither are advancing then top guy has a slight edge imo Phone Post

Nope.

Its neutral, its a position that both guys have to show offense or control or initiative with. If both guys are equally doing nothing, its a wash, both guys are doing nothing.

Plus, in theory, you can finish a guy much quicker form guard than within someone's full guard so how is that an automatic advantage for the guy on top?
1/27/13 2:27 PM
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Wasa-B
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Hate to ask caseharts but have you traned at all in MMA or any type of grappling? Im just finding it hard to believe that anyone has rolled would think if you're not doing anything from top position in full guard, you still have the advantage.
1/27/13 2:30 PM
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Wasa-B
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Gokudamus stole my name - "Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent


"Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

Sorry dude, but this is ridiculous. What Lamas did was connect with bombs. What Hioki did was lock Clay's arm in kimura and isolate it to put him in real danger of a submission.

What do both cases have in common? Both guys did something in reality and not theory. GSMN is absolutely right there as well. Why even fight then if so and so theoretically should win?
1/27/13 2:31 PM
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caseharts
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Wasa-B -
Gokudamus stole my name - "Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent


"Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

Sorry dude, but this is ridiculous. What Lamas did was connect with bombs. What Hioki did was lock Clay's arm in kimura and isolate it to put him in real danger of a submission.

What do both cases have in common? Both guys did something in reality and not theory. GSMN is absolutely right there as well. Why even fight then if so and so theoretically should win?
Guys. Im not referencing clay and hiokis fight I'm staying in my opinion when all is equal the top guy is winning. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:31 PM
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myjawhurts
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TDogg926 - Takedowns. My friend. Takedowns. Phone Post
Even rampage was thinking about takedowns! Phone Post
1/27/13 2:31 PM
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Wasa-B
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caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
Gokudamus stole my name - "Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

You shouldnt win fights based on what you hypothetically COULD be doing. You should win based on what you actually are doing. And in Guidas case, jack and shit

By your logic, an overhand right hitting air should be scoring more than a jab actually hitting the opponent because it "could" KO the opponent


"Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat."

Sorry dude, but this is ridiculous. What Lamas did was connect with bombs. What Hioki did was lock Clay's arm in kimura and isolate it to put him in real danger of a submission.

What do both cases have in common? Both guys did something in reality and not theory. GSMN is absolutely right there as well. Why even fight then if so and so theoretically should win?
Guys. Im not referencing clay and hiokis fight I'm staying in my opinion when all is equal the top guy is winning. Phone Post

When all is equal, its equal.
1/27/13 2:31 PM
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Soul Gravy
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caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
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This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?
1/27/13 2:32 PM
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Wasa-B
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TDogg926 - Takedowns. My friend. Takedowns. Phone Post
Even rampage was thinking about takedowns! Phone Post

Yup, the irony.
1/27/13 2:32 PM
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Wasa-B
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caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
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This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?

Yup, so in theory, if you are in Aoki's guard but both of you are not doing anything, Aoki is winning because we all know what he COULD do.
1/27/13 2:34 PM
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Wasa-B
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1/27/13 2:34 PM
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caseharts
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Wasa-B - Hate to ask caseharts but have you traned at all in MMA or any type of grappling? Im just finding it hard to believe that anyone has rolled would think if you're not doing anything from top position in full guard, you still have the advantage.
Yes. 3rd year wrestling 5 years of bjj. I'm not referencing the clay fight. Lamas was a bad example for what I was trying to convey.i just think being on top is better. Can the guy on bottom be winning? Definitely. Was hioki? Definitely. I don't comsoder guard neutral that's all. I give a slight edge to top guy unless hes nearly getting subbed. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:35 PM
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caseharts
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Soul Gravy -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
MdGeist -
Pork Sword - 

This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?
Lengthy of high level black belts. This is mma. Not bjj though. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:36 PM
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caseharts
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Wasa-B -
Soul Gravy - 
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
MdGeist -
Pork Sword - 

This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?

Yup, so in theory, if you are in Aoki's guard but both of you are not doing anything, Aoki is winning because we all know what he COULD do.
No position is a key part of grappling. There are a few guys in mma with guards like aoki. But they are the exception. Clearly the exception. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:36 PM
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caseharts
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caseharts -
Soul Gravy -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
MdGeist -
Pork Sword - 

This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?
Lengthy of high level black belts. This is mma. Not bjj though. Phone Post
Lots not lengthy Phone Post
1/27/13 2:38 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

1/27/13 2:39 PM
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caseharts
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Gokudamus stole my name - If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

Did the bottom guy get taken down? If so he lost. Take downs Mayer to me. Not as much as some crazy judges but they matter. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:40 PM
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TDogg926
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Ryann Von Doom -
TDogg926 - Takedowns. My friend. Takedowns. Phone Post
He's not your fren, budday.

And take downs with little to no work > sub attempts and good striking. Gotcha. Phone Post
You're not my buddy guy.

I agree with you. I'm just saying why he won. Doesn't mean I agree with it at all. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:40 PM
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Doem
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those takedowns didnt help. They were clean, powerful takedowns that had guida dry humping him for 2 and a half minutes each time afterwards.
Regardless of how this fight was scored Hioki has to do a better job with the TD defense.
1/27/13 2:41 PM
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Wasa-B
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Fair enough casehearts, i think you're saying YOU have a preference from being on top, perhaps due to your original wrestling background. Myself, i started in wrestling, then to judo, not a day in BJJ but always liked the guard in judo.

Anyhow, preferences aside and with the MMA context, not just BJJ, at the end of the day, imo still, if both guys are doing nothing, both guys are doing nothing and its a wash.
1/27/13 2:41 PM
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caseharts
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TDogg926 -
Ryann Von Doom -
TDogg926 - Takedowns. My friend. Takedowns. Phone Post
He's not your fren, budday.

And take downs with little to no work > sub attempts and good striking. Gotcha. Phone Post
You're not my buddy guy.

I agree with you. I'm just saying why he won. Doesn't mean I agree with it at all. Phone Post
Same here. Phone Post

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