UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> Guida vs Hioki: Robbery of the Year candidate


1/27/13 2:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14900
Wasa-B - Fair enough casehearts, i think you're saying YOU have a preference from being on top, perhaps due to your original wrestling background. Myself, i started in wrestling, then to judo, not a day in BJJ but always liked the guard in judo.

Anyhow, preferences aside and with the MMA context, not just BJJ, at the end of the day, imo still, if both guys are doing nothing, both guys are doing nothing and its a wash.
I understand I have a preference. But if a guy takes another guy down and is a stalemate and they get stood up and the same repeats as boring as it is he won. Im not implying stalling. I mean a real stalemate. Those transforms and top position are a divider. They should count for a ton but enough to split a tie yes.

I actually like being on bottom more. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42960
caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

Did the bottom guy get taken down? If so he lost. Take downs Mayer to me. Not as much as some crazy judges but they matter. Phone Post

Irrelevant. It still comes down to what you do after the td. Look at the slam from Guida, he couldnt even establish position, Hioki immediately went to a switch so Guida got a td, a flashy one but was not in full control after that.

Its like saying if you score one jab and the other backs up, that doesnt mean you should be given credit for 3 jabs, only the 1 jab esp if you are not necessarily in control of the sequence after. If the other guy backs up but is still in position to counter and not hurt or cowering in defense, why would you be given credit for what theoretically COULD happen next?

And what do you mean by "he lost." A td is only a td. YOu have read it in the OVERALL CONTEXT of what's going on OVERALL.
1/27/13 2:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14901
When we see fights like this it sucks but the opponent needs to work on his takedown defense. Not all the blame can be put on clay. Takedown defense should be a top priority for every mma fighter. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Soul Gravy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/15/07
Posts: 2310
caseharts - 
Soul Gravy -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
MdGeist -
Pork Sword - 

This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?
Lengthy of high level black belts. This is mma. Not bjj though. Phone Post

Then you should know better than what you're saying on here.
1/27/13 2:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gokudamus stole my name
102 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 21683
caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

Did the bottom guy get taken down? If so he lost. Take downs Mayer to me. Not as much as some crazy judges but they matter. Phone Post

According to me? No i dont count takedowns unless its high amplitude or leads to better position/G&P

But according to the rules? Sure they count but then again according to the actual AC scoring the guard IS a neutral position
1/27/13 2:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14902
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

Did the bottom guy get taken down? If so he lost. Take downs Mayer to me. Not as much as some crazy judges but they matter. Phone Post

Irrelevant. It still comes down to what you do after the td. Look at the slam from Guida, he couldnt even establish position, Hioki immediately went to a switch so Guida got a td, a flashy one but was not in full control after that.

Its like saying if you score one jab and the other backs up, that doesnt mean you should be given credit for 3 jabs, only the 1 jab esp if you are not necessarily in control of the sequence after. If the other guy backs up but is still in position to counter and not hurt or cowering in defense, why would you be given credit for what theoretically COULD happen next?

And what do you mean by "he lost." A td is only a td. YOu have read it in the OVERALL CONTEXT of what's going on OVERALL.
No take downs hurt. Especially that slam man. They matter. Remember im not referencing clay hioki fight in those posts.

Takedkwns can hurt more than a super knee it all is circumstantial. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42961
caseharts - 
Wasa-B - Fair enough casehearts, i think you're saying YOU have a preference from being on top, perhaps due to your original wrestling background. Myself, i started in wrestling, then to judo, not a day in BJJ but always liked the guard in judo.

Anyhow, preferences aside and with the MMA context, not just BJJ, at the end of the day, imo still, if both guys are doing nothing, both guys are doing nothing and its a wash.
I understand I have a preference. But if a guy takes another guy down and is a stalemate and they get stood up and the same repeats as boring as it is he won. Im not implying stalling. I mean a real stalemate. Those transforms and top position are a divider. They should count for a ton but enough to split a tie yes.

I actually like being on bottom more. Phone Post

" But if a guy takes another guy down and is a stalemate and they get stood up and the same repeats as boring as it is he won."

I think what you're trying to say is that the td/top guy should get credit as "winning" that entire sequence from td to stand up?

COmpletely disagree. The only thing he should get credit for is the td which is minor. If both guys do nothing on the ground, they should be credited as such - doing nothing.
1/27/13 2:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14903
Soul Gravy -
caseharts - 
Soul Gravy -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
MdGeist -
Pork Sword - 

This problem will not go away until full guard is considered a neutral position like it should be. If you get a takedown great but you need to do something with it besides eating elbows and fighting off chokes.


 

I totally agree.

I don't think it will happen over night but in the next few years, hopefully were going to see more judges that actually have BJJ/grappling backgrounds that can recognize the significance of an offensive guard and weigh certain strikes/sub. attempts from guard/half-guard equally to comparable offensive techniques from top-control.

Guard is not a neutral position. The guy on top is winning for sure if the bottom guy isn't going for subs constantly or sweeps. I thought clay was losing but I knew how judges would react.

Being on top is winning. Look at koch vs lamas most of those bombs were thrown in guard then lifted his legs and unleashed some heat. Phone Post

What on earth does Lamas GNPing the living death out of Koch on top have to do with Hioki making Clay hang on for dear life from the bottom?

Guard IS a neutral position. Its up to either to put their offense/control/etc from there. Clay may have "controlled" more of the time but was also in sub attempts (fight finishing attempts) and also had to defense sweeps, GNP from guard where he landed hardly any GNP himself, only got half guard once which was lost and which he did nothing with.
I don't agree. Guard is not neutral to me. Guard favors the top guy unless we see what hioki did to clay. Phone Post

Have you ever even been in someone's guard?
Lengthy of high level black belts. This is mma. Not bjj though. Phone Post

Then you should know better than what you're saying on here.
Nope. Im pretty comfident in my opinion as ibjjf rules as well as wrestling agree with me. A take down counts. While this is mma. That is effective grappling. What comes after May not be. But that's irrelevant. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14904
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B - Fair enough casehearts, i think you're saying YOU have a preference from being on top, perhaps due to your original wrestling background. Myself, i started in wrestling, then to judo, not a day in BJJ but always liked the guard in judo.

Anyhow, preferences aside and with the MMA context, not just BJJ, at the end of the day, imo still, if both guys are doing nothing, both guys are doing nothing and its a wash.
I understand I have a preference. But if a guy takes another guy down and is a stalemate and they get stood up and the same repeats as boring as it is he won. Im not implying stalling. I mean a real stalemate. Those transforms and top position are a divider. They should count for a ton but enough to split a tie yes.

I actually like being on bottom more. Phone Post

" But if a guy takes another guy down and is a stalemate and they get stood up and the same repeats as boring as it is he won."

I think what you're trying to say is that the td/top guy should get credit as "winning" that entire sequence from td to stand up?

COmpletely disagree. The only thing he should get credit for is the td which is minor. If both guys do nothing on the ground, they should be credited as such - doing nothing.
If both guys are neutral on the ground neither gets credit for the ground game. But the guy who got the take down definitely deserves credit and would be winning. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42962
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

Did the bottom guy get taken down? If so he lost. Take downs Mayer to me. Not as much as some crazy judges but they matter. Phone Post

Irrelevant. It still comes down to what you do after the td. Look at the slam from Guida, he couldnt even establish position, Hioki immediately went to a switch so Guida got a td, a flashy one but was not in full control after that.

Its like saying if you score one jab and the other backs up, that doesnt mean you should be given credit for 3 jabs, only the 1 jab esp if you are not necessarily in control of the sequence after. If the other guy backs up but is still in position to counter and not hurt or cowering in defense, why would you be given credit for what theoretically COULD happen next?

And what do you mean by "he lost." A td is only a td. YOu have read it in the OVERALL CONTEXT of what's going on OVERALL.
No take downs hurt. Especially that slam man. They matter. Remember im not referencing clay hioki fight in those posts.

Takedkwns can hurt more than a super knee it all is circumstantial. Phone Post

As a wrestler, you know then that some flashy looking slams do NOT hurt esp if you break the fall.

I would say TDS unless you dump someone on their heads and KO them or noticeably daze them, the knee to a face will always hurt more (depending on if it connects or not of course).

On the Steetz of course a slam is gonna hurt more than in MMA, but we're talking MMA right.

Look at Randleman/Fedor, did Fedor look "hurt" after that? He immediately reversed position? The slam that Hughes did on Trigg in the rematch, yeah it looked good but you think it hurt Trigg? And the slam on Hioki, im not saying Clay doesnt get credit for being the aggressor and initiating offense there but you think Hioki was actually hurt?
1/27/13 2:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14906
. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42963
case, i respect that your opinion is honest but i disagree. Anyhow, back to the subject of the thread, Clay did not beat Hioki. Hioki was putting subs on Clay, Clay did nothing.
1/27/13 2:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14907
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
Gokudamus stole my name - If neither the top guy or the bottom guy is doing anything then thats a draw at best and two guys having sex at worst. I dont deal in what if scenarios, you dont win fights based on what you could do, you win based on what you actually do

Did the bottom guy get taken down? If so he lost. Take downs Mayer to me. Not as much as some crazy judges but they matter. Phone Post

Irrelevant. It still comes down to what you do after the td. Look at the slam from Guida, he couldnt even establish position, Hioki immediately went to a switch so Guida got a td, a flashy one but was not in full control after that.

Its like saying if you score one jab and the other backs up, that doesnt mean you should be given credit for 3 jabs, only the 1 jab esp if you are not necessarily in control of the sequence after. If the other guy backs up but is still in position to counter and not hurt or cowering in defense, why would you be given credit for what theoretically COULD happen next?

And what do you mean by "he lost." A td is only a td. YOu have read it in the OVERALL CONTEXT of what's going on OVERALL.
No take downs hurt. Especially that slam man. They matter. Remember im not referencing clay hioki fight in those posts.

Takedkwns can hurt more than a super knee it all is circumstantial. Phone Post

As a wrestler, you know then that some flashy looking slams do NOT hurt esp if you break the fall.

I would say TDS unless you dump someone on their heads and KO them or noticeably daze them, the knee to a face will always hurt more (depending on if it connects or not of course).

On the Steetz of course a slam is gonna hurt more than in MMA, but we're talking MMA right.

Look at Randleman/Fedor, did Fedor look "hurt" after that? He immediately reversed position? The slam that Hughes did on Trigg in the rematch, yeah it looked good but you think it hurt Trigg? And the slam on Hioki, im not saying Clay doesnt get credit for being the aggressor and initiating offense there but you think Hioki was actually hurt?
As someone whose been slammed in several cages. Yes they all hurt. Of course at varying degrees and I was implying a knee to the body. Slams ate among the most painful parts imo. Maybe I'm a baby. But trigg was for sure hurt. And fedor want out but was pain felt most definitely. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42965


1/27/13 2:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14908
Wasa-B - case, i respect that your opinion is honest but i disagree. Anyhow, back to the subject of the thread, Clay did not beat Hioki. Hioki was putting subs on Clay, Clay did nothing.
I'm glad we can respectfully Disagree. I really respect you. And I agree he lost but I bet on clay because I knew how dumb judges are. .. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14909
This phone is still new I apologize for errors. Phone Post
1/27/13 2:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
duckingkimura
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/23/12
Posts: 132
Clay Guida is my most disliked fighter in the UFC. I mean there are other blankets like Jake Shields and Jon Fitch, but they assert themselves, they take control and they are dominant. Clay Guida however, takes people down and doesn't do anything, he makes Leonard Garcia looks like Mike Tyson and he bounces around awkwardly.
Worst of all he believes he's an exciting fighter, everytime he finishes laying on people, he'd run around with his arms up like he's knocked out someone Shane Carwin style. And to top it off, American fans actually cheer for him and encourage him as well...
1/27/13 3:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42966
I have nothing against Clay, im not one of those Clay haters, he's had far more finishes than he gets credit for but he said that he got the tds and defended submissions so he's kinda admitting that's all he had. How can you win by getting tds over defending subs?

I dont think Clay was disrespectful or dismissive of Hioki or anything here but i think he also unintentially noted the problem with UFC judging.

Cant seem to embed: http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/1/27/3920098/clay-guida
1/27/13 3:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42967
caseharts - 
Wasa-B - case, i respect that your opinion is honest but i disagree. Anyhow, back to the subject of the thread, Clay did not beat Hioki. Hioki was putting subs on Clay, Clay did nothing.
I'm glad we can respectfully Disagree. I really respect you. And I agree he lost but I bet on clay because I knew how dumb judges are. .. Phone Post

Cool.
1/27/13 3:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14912
Wasa-B -
caseharts - 
Wasa-B - case, i respect that your opinion is honest but i disagree. Anyhow, back to the subject of the thread, Clay did not beat Hioki. Hioki was putting subs on Clay, Clay did nothing.
I'm glad we can respectfully Disagree. I really respect you. And I agree he lost but I bet on clay because I knew how dumb judges are. .. Phone Post

Cool.
Cooler Phone Post
1/27/13 3:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Elias Cepeda
179 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 19888

I was very impressed with Hioki because of his crisp and powerful striking that came in spurts but I had it 30-27 and was shocked that not all the judges had it that way as well. To suggest it was a robbery is insane. I was backstage and saw one of Hioki's cornerman come over and talk to Guida and he was anything but upset or showing feelings that they thought the decision was incorrect. 

We've seen lots of examples of fighters threatening from their back to end the fight and not get credit for it but this was not one of those instances. It would seem to me that most of the judges gave him too many points for it despite his inability to control where the fight went and stayed. 

1/27/13 3:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42980
Btw, has anyone had Clay in this much sub trouble on pure grappling alone? How much did Nate have? Seeing some earlier subs in his career but in the UFC, he's only been RNC after getting rocked.

Pretty impressive on Hioki's part imo esp after his past performance aginst Lamas which he has no close attempts?

Does Hioki have the best BJJ at FW?
1/27/13 3:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42981
Elias Cepeda - 

I was very impressed with Hioki because of his crisp and powerful striking that came in spurts but I had it 30-27 and was shocked that not all the judges had it that way as well. To suggest it was a robbery is insane. I was backstage and saw one of Hioki's cornerman come over and talk to Guida and he was anything but upset or showing feelings that they thought the decision was incorrect. 

We've seen lots of examples of fighters threatening from their back to end the fight and not get credit for it but this was not one of those instances. It would seem to me that most of the judges gave him too many points for it despite his inability to control where the fight went and stayed. 


WHERE at fight takes place is far less important than what actually happens to you or the other guy. I do agree Hioki did not have as much control or offense over the sustained lengthy BUT Clay did not land any significant GNP, he passed only once in 3 rounds to half guard and then did nothing with it, got back in full guard and then Hioki nearly reversed him.

Clay was in danger in the guard all 3 rounds iirc, for sure 2 and 3. The bottom line is that sub attempts simply do not get scored highly enough by the US judges - they are near fight ending moves where this "control" thing means little if you are not advancing or GNPing which Clay was not.

Hioki also significantly outlanded Guida in strikes.

Im shocked a red would have scored it 30-27.
1/27/13 3:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
caseharts
407 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/18/11
Posts: 14915
Wasa-B - Btw, has anyone had Clay in this much sub trouble on pure grappling alone? How much did Nate have? Seeing some earlier subs in his career but in the UFC, he's only been RNC after getting rocked.

Pretty impressive on Hioki's part imo esp after his past performance aginst Lamas which he has no close attempts?

Does Hioki have the best BJJ at FW?
Pettis Phone Post
1/27/13 3:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
313 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42982
Hmm...Pettis' is good/underated but dont think its up to Hioki's.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.