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UnderGround Forums >> Guida vs Hioki: Robbery of the Year candidate


1/27/13 6:00 PM
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Bentleysuper8
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Pride rules it's a Hioki blowout. Not a Guida fan so maybe I'm biased.
1/27/13 6:03 PM
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Wasa-B
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ufc98newb - 
Wasa-B - Btw, any comments from Hatsu or Dana after the fight?

And seems that Rogan was pulling another "Kimora" pronounciation on Hioki, saying "Hey-oki" as if he was wanting to say "A-oki." ;p

at the press conference dana said  he didn't watch it. was dealing with technical difficulties or some such shit. word is that he appeared facetious when he said he didn't watch it, as he was trying to follow the golden rule of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."


interesting. he probably respects clay so probably cool not to totally blast it as clay is a regular fixture in the show so...
1/27/13 6:10 PM
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Saltyballs
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Wasa-B -
ufc98newb - 
Wasa-B - Btw, any comments from Hatsu or Dana after the fight?

And seems that Rogan was pulling another "Kimora" pronounciation on Hioki, saying "Hey-oki" as if he was wanting to say "A-oki." ;p

at the press conference dana said  he didn't watch it. was dealing with technical difficulties or some such shit. word is that he appeared facetious when he said he didn't watch it, as he was trying to follow the golden rule of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."


interesting. he probably respects clay so probably cool not to totally blast it as clay is a regular fixture in the show so...
The only thing Dana said about the fight was on Twitter in response to a fan. Dana seemed to agree that Hioki got robbed.

"@danawhite Hioki got robbed. Guida didn't do shit on top position."

Dana responded: "@palfor03 I agree." Phone Post
1/27/13 6:55 PM
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HenryO
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Wasa-B - I have nothing against Clay, im not one of those Clay haters, he's had far more finishes than he gets credit for but he said that he got the tds and defended submissions so he's kinda admitting that's all he had. How can you win by getting tds over defending subs?

I dont think Clay was disrespectful or dismissive of Hioki or anything here but i think he also unintentially noted the problem with UFC judging.

Cant seem to embed: http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/1/27/3920098/clay-guida

Exactly, so he won by defending?

The MMA judging is completely broken
1/27/13 7:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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Saltyballs - 
Wasa-B -
ufc98newb - 
Wasa-B - Btw, any comments from Hatsu or Dana after the fight?

And seems that Rogan was pulling another "Kimora" pronounciation on Hioki, saying "Hey-oki" as if he was wanting to say "A-oki." ;p

at the press conference dana said  he didn't watch it. was dealing with technical difficulties or some such shit. word is that he appeared facetious when he said he didn't watch it, as he was trying to follow the golden rule of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."


interesting. he probably respects clay so probably cool not to totally blast it as clay is a regular fixture in the show so...
The only thing Dana said about the fight was on Twitter in response to a fan. Dana seemed to agree that Hioki got robbed.

"@danawhite Hioki got robbed. Guida didn't do shit on top position."

Dana responded: "@palfor03 I agree." Phone Post

Cool.

Dana says a lot of stupid shit but i think that's him as a guy protecting his business but at least he speaks his mind on decisions.
1/27/13 7:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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Well, again, nothing against Clay but at least most of the fans will remember this as a very spotty decision for him.
1/27/13 7:55 PM
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circulation123
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I was rooting for Hioki and I agree that it wasn’t the most exciting fight but it wasn’t as boring as people made it out to be. Hioki’s stand up was fun to watch and so was Guida’s sub defense.
 
It’s not like he didn’t try ANYTHING.  He did try to pass guard but Hioki wouldn’t let him and he had to watch out for Hioki’s sub attempt. He also tried to GnP but Hioki stifled it from the bottom.
Hioki needs to improve his striking and work on getting up from the bottom.  He was winning the stand up portion of the fight but needs to develop his footwork to make it harder for Guida to take him down. And he tried to get up from the bottom but didn’t have the explosive power or the conditioning for it. He needs to develop them.
 
Judging criteria is the way it is. You might not like it but Hioki knew the judging criteria before the fight. So should you. The judging criteria aren’t going to change any time soon so fighters needs to adapt to it.
1/27/13 8:04 PM
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circulation123
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By the way I’m not saying Guida definitively won the fight. At least one judge gave credit for Hioki’s stand up. So it could have gone either way. It was close. But even the one judge who gave the fight to Hioki gave credit for Guida’s top control. That’s the way the judging system is right now whether you like it or not. So under the current judging system, you shouldn’t be surprised that Guida won. There are plenty of fights like this where judges gave more credit for top control rather than sub attempt from the bottom. So why are you surprised?
 
The stand up portion of the fight wasn’t enough to sway 2 of 3 judges.
 
Again I feel like the fight could have gone to Hioki but based on the past fight similar to this, I’m not surprised. You shouldn’t be surprised either.
1/27/13 8:34 PM
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MdGeist
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Jaybrone - 

The Noons fight wasn't even a candidate for robbery of the year when it happened. And now it is clearly not as bad as this. THere where 2 rounds in that fight that where close and one Noons dominated. With the 10pt  must system it was not a robbery. It was a close fight that could have gone either way. In fact as it was happening in the third round I predicted it, on the thread here. Noons was coasting in the third, thinking he won the first two rounds. When the first was way to close for him to do that. I personally thought Noons won but a fight that could reasonably be argued the other way is not a robbery.

As Capnsavem said there have been MUCH worse decisions in the UFC. And if by th end of the year you are remembering either one of those fights as worst decision of the year with the shear number of events out there I would be shocked.


 

While it was a competitive fight, the Noons/Couture fight was universally recognized as a robbery by all of the major MMA sites.

http://mmadecisions.com/decision.jsp?id=3915

The FightMetric stats indicate that Noons out-struck Couture and defended all TD attempt, but even these stats don't give a proper account of how one-sided that fight was. The only real significant strikes that Couture landed were sporadic knees to the body and a few solid body kicks, while Noons was blasting him with uppercuts the entire fight.

It was just another case of judges slacking off, not giving there full attention to the fight, and awarding the round to what appears to be the "busier" fighter. 

Couture was throwing a steady stream of unsuccessful air-jabs and weak leg kicks and you could make the case that he was the more aggresive fighter for pressing forward, but Noons countered and out-landed Couture in every round in significant strikes while taking no damage other than getting cut when they clashed heads.

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/4149

1/27/13 8:40 PM
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New Leaf 1.0
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LOL @ that being a "robbery."
1/27/13 10:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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circulation123 - 
By the way I’m not saying Guida definitively won the fight. At least one judge gave credit for Hioki’s stand up. So it could have gone either way. It was close. But even the one judge who gave the fight to Hioki gave credit for Guida’s top control. That’s the way the judging system is right now whether you like it or not. So under the current judging system, you shouldn’t be surprised that Guida won. There are plenty of fights like this where judges gave more credit for top control rather than sub attempt from the bottom. So why are you surprised?
 
The stand up portion of the fight wasn’t enough to sway 2 of 3 judges.
 
Again I feel like the fight could have gone to Hioki but based on the past fight similar to this, I’m not surprised. You shouldn’t be surprised either.

Being surprised and calling BS arent the same thing though.

And which "judging system" are we talking about? Are we talking about criteria or the level of judging competancy?

And how do you know which judge was swayed but what in each round? If you have a link to which judge scored each round, that'd be cool, thanks.
1/27/13 10:08 PM
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Wasa-B
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circulation123 - 
I was rooting for Hioki and I agree that it wasn’t the most exciting fight but it wasn’t as boring as people made it out to be. Hioki’s stand up was fun to watch and so was Guida’s sub defense.
 
It’s not like he didn’t try ANYTHING.  He did try to pass guard but Hioki wouldn’t let him and he had to watch out for Hioki’s sub attempt. He also tried to GnP but Hioki stifled it from the bottom.
Hioki needs to improve his striking and work on getting up from the bottom.  He was winning the stand up portion of the fight but needs to develop his footwork to make it harder for Guida to take him down. And he tried to get up from the bottom but didn’t have the explosive power or the conditioning for it. He needs to develop them.
 
Judging criteria is the way it is. You might not like it but Hioki knew the judging criteria before the fight. So should you. The judging criteria aren’t going to change any time soon so fighters needs to adapt to it.

Again, which "judging criteria" are we talking about? Which lines exactly that would lend proof that Guida def won by it. I think you're talking about "judging bias."
1/27/13 10:30 PM
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bartatua
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it's insane that so many people have been complaining about this exact, identical issue for literally YEARS and there has still been nothing done about it or even a gesture toward doing something about it

such a joke
1/27/13 10:45 PM
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Wasa-B
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bartatua - it's insane that so many people have been complaining about this exact, identical issue for literally YEARS and there has still been nothing done about it or even a gesture toward doing something about it

such a joke

I wonder if Zuffa is actively campaigning with the ACs to improve this?
1/28/13 12:32 AM
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circulation123
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Wasa-B - 
circulation123 - 
By the way I’m not saying Guida definitively won the fight. At least one judge gave credit for Hioki’s stand up. So it could have gone either way. It was close. But even the one judge who gave the fight to Hioki gave credit for Guida’s top control. That’s the way the judging system is right now whether you like it or not. So under the current judging system, you shouldn’t be surprised that Guida won. There are plenty of fights like this where judges gave more credit for top control rather than sub attempt from the bottom. So why are you surprised?
 
The stand up portion of the fight wasn’t enough to sway 2 of 3 judges.
 
Again I feel like the fight could have gone to Hioki but based on the past fight similar to this, I’m not surprised. You shouldn’t be surprised either.

Being surprised and calling BS arent the same thing though.

And which "judging system" are we talking about? Are we talking about criteria or the level of judging competancy?

And how do you know which judge was swayed but what in each round? If you have a link to which judge scored each round, that'd be cool, thanks.

You are right. I don’t exactly know which judge was swayed by what in each round. But I can make educated guesses based on the fight. After all, you guys saying that Guida won is also based on educated guesses.
 
I believe it was 29-28 for Hioki, and 30-27, 29-28 for Guida.
 
Like Rogan said, whoever scored 30-27 for Guida should be fired and I agree with that.
 
Since Hioki took control of the standup portion of the fight for most of the 1st Round, I would say that both judges that scored that fight 29-28 gave the first round to Hioki. I also believe that both judges gave the 3rd round to Guida since Hioki spent the majority of the fight on the bottom. I think it was 2nd Round that caused the split. One judge gave that round to Hioki based on stand up portion of the fight-especially the high kick. Another judge didn’t think it offset the ground control by Guida so the judge gave it to Guida.
 
When I say Judging criteria in this context-I guess I mean a pattern in which the how the judges have judged the fight. You can argue about the actual judging criteria. Or you can argue about the way it is applied. I see argument for both.
 
But there is a pattern that all fighters and coaches are aware. Historically, the judges gave more credit for top control over sub attempt from the bottom.
Verrismo vs Hughes
Torres VS DJ
Sanchez vs Fitch
Guida vs Pettis.
 
Those are few fights that I came up with very quickly. I’m sure there are HUNDREDS of more.
 
So I while it was not the most exciting fights, I was not surprised with the result. Hioki probably understand that as well even though initially after the fight, he thought he won.
 
If you say that the official MMA judging criteria is BS, I can see argument for that.  If you say how the official judging criteria is applied in current MMA fights are BS, I can see argument for that. But you cannot deny that most judges will side with Guida based on how the AC interprets the judging criteria. That is what I meant.
 
1/28/13 12:33 AM
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circulation123
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Wasa-B - 
circulation123 - 
I was rooting for Hioki and I agree that it wasn’t the most exciting fight but it wasn’t as boring as people made it out to be. Hioki’s stand up was fun to watch and so was Guida’s sub defense.
 
It’s not like he didn’t try ANYTHING.  He did try to pass guard but Hioki wouldn’t let him and he had to watch out for Hioki’s sub attempt. He also tried to GnP but Hioki stifled it from the bottom.
Hioki needs to improve his striking and work on getting up from the bottom.  He was winning the stand up portion of the fight but needs to develop his footwork to make it harder for Guida to take him down. And he tried to get up from the bottom but didn’t have the explosive power or the conditioning for it. He needs to develop them.
 
Judging criteria is the way it is. You might not like it but Hioki knew the judging criteria before the fight. So should you. The judging criteria aren’t going to change any time soon so fighters needs to adapt to it.

Again, which "judging criteria" are we talking about? Which lines exactly that would lend proof that Guida def won by it. I think you're talking about "judging bias."

see my post above

1/28/13 12:44 AM
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circulation123
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correction: After all, you guys saying that HIOKI won is also based on educated guesses.

Not: After all, you guys saying that Guida won is also based on educated guesses.

1/28/13 12:45 AM
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UGCTT_Capnsavem
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American1177 - Pride clown is butt-hurt. Hioki lost. Phone Post
oh man... you can't have an opinion that goes against the masses around here!!!! Phone Post
1/28/13 12:45 AM
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Wasa-B
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"When I say Judging criteria in this context-I guess I mean a pattern in which the how the judges have judged the fight. You can argue about the actual judging criteria. Or you can argue about the way it is applied. I see argument for both."

Ok so its not really the criteria, the "pattern" is the bias or the lense or the usual way they view it, right?

"But there is a pattern that all fighters and coaches are aware. Historically, the judges gave more credit for top control over sub attempt from the bottom.
Verrismo vs Hughes
Torres VS DJ
Sanchez vs Fitch
Guida vs Pettis."

But in which of those fights did the bottom guy deserve to win? I believe Hughes should have lost the Charuto fight but i think there it was only r2 that was in question, Charuro nearly tapped Hughes in R1 iirc but Hughes should have won R3 as he completely controlled, had half or sidemount? And also had a kimura attempt. Clay of course, didnt really do anything of the sort.

Diego/Fitch ws a good example actually, im not sure if Diego did enough to win but i remember that Diego was very active from his back and that all Fitch was doing was defending/reacting to what Diego was doing.

Yeah, of course we know the UFC judges are completely biased to top position and it should not surprise anyone. However Hioki of all people lost to Lamas and he spent some time on top of Lamas though Lamas nearly guillotined Hioki. Hioki had the only sub attempts of the fight from his guard of course too.

Anyhow, its done and at least most people thought Hioki won and that Clay will have an asterix beside this "W" but i think the real question is if there is any real effort to improve the judging. I mean 8 years ago, maybe but NOW? A judge for a UFC still cant recognize a sub attempt and what that means compared to simply being on top of someone in full guard and doing shit?
1/28/13 1:08 AM
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circulation123
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Wasa-B - "When I say Judging criteria in this context-I guess I mean a pattern in which the how the judges have judged the fight. You can argue about the actual judging criteria. Or you can argue about the way it is applied. I see argument for both."

Ok so its not really the criteria, the "pattern" is the bias or the lense or the usual way they view it, right?

"But there is a pattern that all fighters and coaches are aware. Historically, the judges gave more credit for top control over sub attempt from the bottom.
Verrismo vs Hughes
Torres VS DJ
Sanchez vs Fitch
Guida vs Pettis."

But in which of those fights did the bottom guy deserve to win? I believe Hughes should have lost the Charuto fight but i think there it was only r2 that was in question, Charuro nearly tapped Hughes in R1 iirc but Hughes should have won R3 as he completely controlled, had half or sidemount? And also had a kimura attempt. Clay of course, didnt really do anything of the sort.

Diego/Fitch ws a good example actually, im not sure if Diego did enough to win but i remember that Diego was very active from his back and that all Fitch was doing was defending/reacting to what Diego was doing.

Yeah, of course we know the UFC judges are completely biased to top position and it should not surprise anyone. However Hioki of all people lost to Lamas and he spent some time on top of Lamas though Lamas nearly guillotined Hioki. Hioki had the only sub attempts of the fight from his guard of course too.

Anyhow, its done and at least most people thought Hioki won and that Clay will have an asterix beside this "W" but i think the real question is if there is any real effort to improve the judging. I mean 8 years ago, maybe but NOW? A judge for a UFC still cant recognize a sub attempt and what that means compared to simply being on top of someone in full guard and doing shit?

Look I can dig up more fights and go on and on. Of course each fight is different in its own way but those examples I mentioned above have a common element that I was talking about.
 
I’m not saying that original judging criteria should be set in stone. I think there is a room for improvement.
I’m not saying that judges have applied them the way we want them to either. But we DO have to acknowledge that it IS how the AC sees it and therefore it is in some sense THE JUDGING CRITEIRA. As it stands that is how the fights are judged.
 
Hioki and any knowledgeable MMA fan knew that BEFORE the fight. I’m not aware of any big meeting or discussions about possible changes to the official judging criteria or even how it was going to be applied in recent weeks leading up to this fight. So therefore the fighters knew how the fight was going to be judged. The way it looks now , its not going to be changed anytime soon either.
 
So if you are Hioki fan, rather than complain about the decision, the proactive thing to think about is how Hioki should adapt to the current system.   Fans can put asterisk on his “L” all they want and whine about it but the “L” is going to stand the way it is.
1/28/13 1:24 AM
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OGLOC
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UGCTT_Capnsavem - top 3? no way.

Bisping vs Hammill was way worse.

also:

Leonard Garcia vs Phan
Machida vs Rua 1
Vera vs Couture
Sanchez vs Kampmann

I could go on... Phone Post
Fukuda ring was the worst I can recall. All the ones you mentioned were bad as well Phone Post
1/28/13 1:31 AM
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circulation123
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OGLOC - 
UGCTT_Capnsavem - top 3? no way.

Bisping vs Hammill was way worse.

also:

Leonard Garcia vs Phan
Machida vs Rua 1
Vera vs Couture
Sanchez vs Kampmann

I could go on... Phone Post
Fukuda ring was the worst I can recall. All the ones you mentioned were bad as well Phone Post

I agree with you 100% on all of those fights that you mentioned. With the current “judging criteria” ( I use that term loosely), all those decisions needs to be reversed.
 
Also with Mizugaki vs Cariaso.
 
I at least hope the the judges be consistent even if the system is not applied the right way.
1/28/13 1:39 AM
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NorthFromHere
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MMAViking.com
Close fight where neither guy did much
1/28/13 8:39 PM
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Wasa-B
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circulation123 - 
Wasa-B - "When I say Judging criteria in this context-I guess I mean a pattern in which the how the judges have judged the fight. You can argue about the actual judging criteria. Or you can argue about the way it is applied. I see argument for both."

Ok so its not really the criteria, the "pattern" is the bias or the lense or the usual way they view it, right?

"But there is a pattern that all fighters and coaches are aware. Historically, the judges gave more credit for top control over sub attempt from the bottom.
Verrismo vs Hughes
Torres VS DJ
Sanchez vs Fitch
Guida vs Pettis."

But in which of those fights did the bottom guy deserve to win? I believe Hughes should have lost the Charuto fight but i think there it was only r2 that was in question, Charuro nearly tapped Hughes in R1 iirc but Hughes should have won R3 as he completely controlled, had half or sidemount? And also had a kimura attempt. Clay of course, didnt really do anything of the sort.

Diego/Fitch ws a good example actually, im not sure if Diego did enough to win but i remember that Diego was very active from his back and that all Fitch was doing was defending/reacting to what Diego was doing.

Yeah, of course we know the UFC judges are completely biased to top position and it should not surprise anyone. However Hioki of all people lost to Lamas and he spent some time on top of Lamas though Lamas nearly guillotined Hioki. Hioki had the only sub attempts of the fight from his guard of course too.

Anyhow, its done and at least most people thought Hioki won and that Clay will have an asterix beside this "W" but i think the real question is if there is any real effort to improve the judging. I mean 8 years ago, maybe but NOW? A judge for a UFC still cant recognize a sub attempt and what that means compared to simply being on top of someone in full guard and doing shit?

Look I can dig up more fights and go on and on. Of course each fight is different in its own way but those examples I mentioned above have a common element that I was talking about.
 
I’m not saying that original judging criteria should be set in stone. I think there is a room for improvement.
I’m not saying that judges have applied them the way we want them to either. But we DO have to acknowledge that it IS how the AC sees it and therefore it is in some sense THE JUDGING CRITEIRA. As it stands that is how the fights are judged.
 
Hioki and any knowledgeable MMA fan knew that BEFORE the fight. I’m not aware of any big meeting or discussions about possible changes to the official judging criteria or even how it was going to be applied in recent weeks leading up to this fight. So therefore the fighters knew how the fight was going to be judged. The way it looks now , its not going to be changed anytime soon either.
 
So if you are Hioki fan, rather than complain about the decision, the proactive thing to think about is how Hioki should adapt to the current system.   Fans can put asterisk on his “L” all they want and whine about it but the “L” is going to stand the way it is.

You're right and I have, in fact said, that it is BS but that I wasnt surprised. However, taking into consideration that has time goes on and the sport becomes bigger, the awareness or level of judging should also be expected to improve. You have had Dana publicly criticizing it for a while.

And I have also noted myself that Hioki should have been more aware of this and been more active off his back for longer periods of time.

As far as the "criteria," this is more of a semantic thing, but strictly speaking, the way the judges (and not the ACs specifically) see it is their "interpretation" or "perspective." Again, semantics and I know what you;'re saying, "precedent" even but i see the "criteria" as whatever is written in the rules. And of course, we all know the UFC judges have been biased towards the top position. Yes.

As far the as the asterix and Ls and Ws, of course, the Ls and Ws stand unless overturned but just like boxing, the real fans remember the actual fights and not just the decisions. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it should be more commendable to understand the sport and give your own opinion of how a fight went and not just looking up Ws and Ls.

You should also however not be surprised that people complain about BS decisions. BS is still BS. And if you noticed, many people were posting they thought Hioki took this round but that they thought the judges would see it differently.
1/28/13 8:42 PM
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Wasa-B
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circulation123 - 
OGLOC - 
UGCTT_Capnsavem - top 3? no way.

Bisping vs Hammill was way worse.

also:

Leonard Garcia vs Phan
Machida vs Rua 1
Vera vs Couture
Sanchez vs Kampmann

I could go on... Phone Post
Fukuda ring was the worst I can recall. All the ones you mentioned were bad as well Phone Post

I agree with you 100% on all of those fights that you mentioned. With the current “judging criteria” ( I use that term loosely), all those decisions needs to be reversed.
 
Also with Mizugaki vs Cariaso.
 
I at least hope the the judges be consistent even if the system is not applied the right way.

Dont forget Omigawa/Elkins.

I wouldnt expect or even call for any of those to be reversed though. ;p

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