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BJJGround Forum >> MMA Fighter? You better learn another guard


1/27/13 10:14 PM
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JosephConnolly
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There needs to be more sensitivity in how to play the guard. Sometimes the guy isn't even trying to pass, only trying to pound your head in, yet the guy on bottom refuses to open his legs.

I think you have to figure out what the other guy is trying to do. If he wants to pass stop him, if he doesn't, open up and create space.
1/27/13 10:20 PM
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Stubjj844
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I don't know why you bring up Edgar-Penn. Edgar beat BJ standing.

I think the stand-up rule is a big problem. If someone KNOWS 100% that they are not going to get stood up then they will be more active on the bottom. At the moment I think a lot of guys won't attack because of the energy it takes. He might get a sub, but he might miss it also and blow a lot of energy. So a lot of times they just play it safe, or attack a little.

Using examples in the UFC is tough. This is the very highest level. Tapping anyone is usually a huge accomplishment.
1/27/13 10:26 PM
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demandango
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k1levelstriking - Watch Joslin vs Koscheck to see how to use Butterfly in MMA Phone Post
This Phone Post
1/27/13 10:38 PM
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kying418
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Stubjj844 - I don't know why you bring up Edgar-Penn. Edgar beat BJ standing.

I think the stand-up rule is a big problem. If someone KNOWS 100% that they are not going to get stood up then they will be more active on the bottom. At the moment I think a lot of guys won't attack because of the energy it takes. He might get a sub, but he might miss it also and blow a lot of energy. So a lot of times they just play it safe, or attack a little.

Using examples in the UFC is tough. This is the very highest level. Tapping anyone is usually a huge accomplishment.

I'm not sure which match it was (possibly their first one)- BJ spent extended amounts of time on his back in closed guard unable to do anything.

I'm not advocating attacking from the bottom- as it is much harder to do in an mma setting- where there is sweat, punches, and steroids.

I am talking more about having effective sweeps to get up on top, and then try to finish the fight.
1/27/13 10:47 PM
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cumprido1
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Mousasi beat up king mo from the bottom too.

Judges will simply not award you the round if.you're on the bottom under the unified rules.

There just aren't too many guys with super badass guards who are good in other aspects of mma. Phone Post
1/28/13 1:45 PM
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brixx139
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Setree - BJJ isn't an offensive art. It's even called a "guard."

....wut Phone Post
1/28/13 2:53 PM
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A_Butler
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Christophr -
kying418 - 
Christophr - Most jiu-jitsu schools are *packed* with potential UFC champs. We've got to solve this problem...let's think...

How about x-guard?


Dont get me wrong, I think you can possibly win the BB Mundials with a killer closed guard, and I love sport BJJ.
I always tell my students to just have fun with BJJ and try whatever suits them.


However, if you are training your ass off in mma and have aspirations to be a UFC Champ, you will never beat the likes of GSP or Ben Askren with a closed guard.  (on the other hand, you will have a tall task beating them with any guard- but at the very least- dont stick with the closed guard)


Yeah, I was just being a smartass.

I guess the larger question is: how relevant is jiu-jitsu to MMA at this point?
How relevant is jiu jitsu? Or how relevant is the closed guard? Jiu jitsu is still highly relevant. Idk about the closed guard.... Phone Post
1/28/13 11:01 PM
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RoidsGracie
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Edited: 01/28/13 11:02 PM
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I think the close guard gets used the most because it's the easiest to defend strikes from that position right? There's guards that give you a lot more offensive options like x-guard but they to leave you more exposed to GnP.

The people who use BJJ most effectively in MMA are the people who can get top position. Maia was been effective with his BJJ because he has a good single leg. He took down a pretty solid wrestler in Rick Story.
1/28/13 11:24 PM
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Hargreaves
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I feel Marcelo Garcia has the perfect guard for MMA I wish he would show his mma lessons on line..

even though he lost his mma fight he only got hit in the stand up area.


People back in the day would always end up in a heel hook position but always went for the sub where Marcelo always hits a sweep from the same area which leads to the top his theory on you may not get another chance makes perfect sense.


my 2 cents
1/29/13 1:17 PM
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triso
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The judges perception is what's causing this. You can no longer be patient when you are on your back in MMA because no matter what you do the judges score it for the top man.

Guida and Hioki is a perfect example. Hioki was outstriking him from the bottom and constantly threatening with subs while Guida basically did nothing but defend.

In order to be effective with closed guard you need to have a large skill advantage over your opponent, or you need to be patient and wait for the right opportunity. The timing is lost these days in MMA. Guys threaten recklessly with armbars and triangles from the guard, but all that does is make their opponent aware they're looking for it. They're rushing it because the fear being on their back for an extended period of time. Knowing WHEN to go for an attack from closed guard seems to be a lost art.

Standups need to be eliminated from the sport, and a stall warning needs to be put in place. You get one stall warning and the next one is a point deduction. No break in the action either, just a hand signal with a 1pt deduction, the position should not be broken. Refs need to be trained to understand what constitutes stalling IN EVERY POSITION. Judges need to be trained to understand what effective grappling means since they only see it as being on top.

1/29/13 1:28 PM
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joe_mama
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Setree - BJJ isn't an offensive art. It's even called a "guard."


Yeah, this was along the lines of my thought as well. That guard specifically isn't technically an offensive position, it's a neutral one. Certainly in sports jiu-jitsu a guy can get super-proficient at it, and have it be his goto attack move and he'll have success with it.

But I agree with the Gracie paradigm, that survival is your paramount goal in jiu-jitsu. And surviving is not losing, but you're also not winning fights in an MMA sporting context.

1/29/13 2:15 PM
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Barbartha
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Butterfly guard is better for fighting wrestlers, IMO.

1/29/13 5:57 PM
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Angry Bird
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I think one of the issues is not with the closed guard, but the people who use it. Not everyone in MMA trains BJJ, but they all use the closed guard because its become the thing you are supposed to do. I watch plenty of non-BJJ guys use it, they wrap them up and get smashed in the head. Its a defensive posisition for the most part in a fight and its supposed to be used to prevent someone from gaining a mounted position, which is much worse. Its not that it doesn't work, but the people who use it aren't always BJJ guys. 

1/29/13 11:18 PM
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Stone Free
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Speaking of Maia, he's done a great job against wrestlers so far and he rarely uses the closed guard. If you're a high-level BJJ guy wanting to beat a high-level wrestler, you've got to use good sweeps, trips and judo. 

1/30/13 4:39 AM
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jammer1
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Closed guard sucks for MMA because all the guy on top has to do is carry the fight to the fence and your hips are trapped, nullifying your guard.

I tend to use butterfly,butterfly half and the knee shield/93 guards a lot because they offer the most sweep/standup opportunities .Its also easier to get your back against the cage and wall walk out of bad spots when you get pressed into the cage.
As far as guards against a standing opponent, I like 1 legged X and De La Riva guards.
1/30/13 5:11 AM
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HoldYerGround
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jammer1 - Closed guard sucks for MMA because all the guy on top has to do is carry the fight to the fence and your hips are trapped, nullifying your guard.

I tend to use butterfly,butterfly half and the knee shield/93 guards a lot because they offer the most sweep/standup opportunities .Its also easier to get your back against the cage and wall walk out of bad spots when you get pressed into the cage.
As far as guards against a standing opponent, I like 1 legged X and De La Riva guards.

^Not in this day and age. These days players are using the cage to stand back up and if you want to keep someone pinned to the mat its important to keep them away from it.
1/30/13 5:14 AM
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HoldYerGround
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joe_mama - 
Setree - BJJ isn't an offensive art. It's even called a "guard."


Yeah, this was along the lines of my thought as well. That guard specifically isn't technically an offensive position, it's a neutral one. Certainly in sports jiu-jitsu a guy can get super-proficient at it, and have it be his goto attack move and he'll have success with it.

But I agree with the Gracie paradigm, that survival is your paramount goal in jiu-jitsu. And surviving is not losing, but you're also not winning fights in an MMA sporting context.


Guard is a neutral position?

LOL, yeah ok dude.
1/30/13 11:11 AM
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triso
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HoldYerGround - 
joe_mama - 
Setree - BJJ isn't an offensive art. It's even called a "guard."


Yeah, this was along the lines of my thought as well. That guard specifically isn't technically an offensive position, it's a neutral one. Certainly in sports jiu-jitsu a guy can get super-proficient at it, and have it be his goto attack move and he'll have success with it.

But I agree with the Gracie paradigm, that survival is your paramount goal in jiu-jitsu. And surviving is not losing, but you're also not winning fights in an MMA sporting context.


Guard is a neutral position?

LOL, yeah ok dude.

What's so funny? Guard IS a neutral position.

Closed guard sucks for MMA because all the guy on top has to do is carry the fight to the fence and your hips are trapped, nullifying your guard.


If they drive you to the fence then you need to sit up and wall walk to stand up or get to butterfly. You could also use your legs off the cage to spin yourself and your opponent.

1/30/13 4:58 PM
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RoidsGracie
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Guard is the best position to be in if you are on your back but I don't agree with it being a neutral position - especially if strikes are involved.
1/30/13 4:58 PM
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jammer1
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triso - 
HoldYerGround - 
joe_mama - 
Setree - BJJ isn't an offensive art. It's even called a "guard."


Yeah, this was along the lines of my thought as well. That guard specifically isn't technically an offensive position, it's a neutral one. Certainly in sports jiu-jitsu a guy can get super-proficient at it, and have it be his goto attack move and he'll have success with it.

But I agree with the Gracie paradigm, that survival is your paramount goal in jiu-jitsu. And surviving is not losing, but you're also not winning fights in an MMA sporting context.


Guard is a neutral position?

LOL, yeah ok dude.

What's so funny? Guard IS a neutral position.

Closed guard sucks for MMA because all the guy on top has to do is carry the fight to the fence and your hips are trapped, nullifying your guard.


If they drive you to the fence then you need to sit up and wall walk to stand up or get to butterfly. You could also use your legs off the cage to spin yourself and your opponent.


So then you agree a about closed guard not being good for MMA? Because at some point you need to open your guard to wall walk or spin off the cage. If you keep a closed guard near the cage, your hips will get shut down. If you keep a closed guard in the center, a smart opponent will move you into the cage.

Also, I would agree about guard being neutral....in BJJ. In MMA though your opponent controls the action as he has gravity on his side (he has more powerful strikes and you have to carry his weight). You are definitely at a disadvantage in guard.
1/31/13 11:16 AM
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BandakaKush
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The rules of MMA need to be restructured to give BJJ players a better chance of winning. You can no longer play the patience game with the closed guard that the Gracie family implemented, therefore they need to get rid of all stand-ups, if I take you down and lay and pray on my opponent or stifle their movements in the closed guard, tough shit, learn better grappling to escape.
Get rid of points for takedowns and top position. Like someone earlier said, it is hard to catch submissions from closed guard when you cannot afford to be patient, first you need to control the guard position, demoralize your opponent and wear them out first, and then you go for a submission.

Also they need to make the Jiu-Jitsu gi mandatory for all competitors.
Think about the extra sponsorship money fighters would get with all that extra advertising space on the Kimono!
1/31/13 11:23 AM
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triso
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jammer1 - 
triso - 
HoldYerGround - 
joe_mama - 
Setree - BJJ isn't an offensive art. It's even called a "guard."


Yeah, this was along the lines of my thought as well. That guard specifically isn't technically an offensive position, it's a neutral one. Certainly in sports jiu-jitsu a guy can get super-proficient at it, and have it be his goto attack move and he'll have success with it.

But I agree with the Gracie paradigm, that survival is your paramount goal in jiu-jitsu. And surviving is not losing, but you're also not winning fights in an MMA sporting context.


Guard is a neutral position?

LOL, yeah ok dude.

What's so funny? Guard IS a neutral position.

Closed guard sucks for MMA because all the guy on top has to do is carry the fight to the fence and your hips are trapped, nullifying your guard.


If they drive you to the fence then you need to sit up and wall walk to stand up or get to butterfly. You could also use your legs off the cage to spin yourself and your opponent.


So then you agree a about closed guard not being good for MMA? Because at some point you need to open your guard to wall walk or spin off the cage. If you keep a closed guard near the cage, your hips will get shut down. If you keep a closed guard in the center, a smart opponent will move you into the cage.

Also, I would agree about guard being neutral....in BJJ. In MMA though your opponent controls the action as he has gravity on his side (he has more powerful strikes and you have to carry his weight). You are definitely at a disadvantage in guard.

The guard is a neutral position in BJJ or MMA.

It's a position where both fighters have the ability to finish the fight and control the other. It is in no way equal to side control, back control, or mount.

You can effectively strike from the guard, you can end the fight with a submission, and you can control your opponent and put him completely on the defensive.

No I do not agree with closed guard not being good for MMA. Closed guard is the safest place to be if you are good at it. Let me be clear, being good at closed guard in BJJ and MMA are two different cases.

Right now, judges perception, standups, and rules are the main cause of closed guard not being an effective strategy. If you're on your back you will lose the round regardless of how much you force the top man to defend. That's because of shit judging. Most of the damaging strikes you can throw from closed guard are now illegal. No upkicks, no heel strikes, no spiking elbows directly to the top of the opponents head. Basically you are at a huge disadvantage, but not because of the position itself.
1/31/13 12:24 PM
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RoidsGracie
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I'm sure even a guy who does have a good guard from bottom still would rather be on top. Everything that you can do from bottom you can do more effectively on top. You can strike more effectively and you can submit more easily. And if you decide not to play the ground game, it is easier to get back on your feet if you are on top then if you are on bottom.
1/31/13 1:14 PM
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MMA_KNOWLEDGE
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Braylon Estima has a great guard for mma. At least it is great for tall guys. Phone Post
2/1/13 10:17 PM
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HoldYerGround
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It is a delusional pipe dream that guard is neutral in MMA.

Just because you "can" do something (can attack submissions in this case) doesn't mean you're in a position that is desirable or advantageous. What we're looking for is an ADVANTAGE over your opponent. As has been shown time and time again, the bottom guard position is not where you want to be! Ask 50 BJJ black belts and 50 top MMA fighters if they would rather play top or bottom in guard and I bet all 100 answer "top".

You can bring up all the concepts and principles of the position, that one player "can" do such and such, the top player can use his weight, etc. it makes no difference. If you watch any MMA at all you'll notice that the bottom player gets the worse end of things more often than not, and that observation is the only one that counts.

You know, for a martial art that is supposed to be unforgivingly based on reality, there is still a lot of dogma going around.

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