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BJJGround Forum >> MMA Fighter? You better learn another guard


2/6/13 2:11 PM
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triso
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HoldYerGround - It is a delusional pipe dream that guard is neutral in MMA.

Just because you "can" do something (can attack submissions in this case) doesn't mean you're in a position that is desirable or advantageous. What we're looking for is an ADVANTAGE over your opponent. As has been shown time and time again, the bottom guard position is not where you want to be! Ask 50 BJJ black belts and 50 top MMA fighters if they would rather play top or bottom in guard and I bet all 100 answer "top".

You can bring up all the concepts and principles of the position, that one player "can" do such and such, the top player can use his weight, etc. it makes no difference. If you watch any MMA at all you'll notice that the bottom player gets the worse end of things more often than not, and that observation is the only one that counts.

You know, for a martial art that is supposed to be unforgivingly based on reality, there is still a lot of dogma going around.

So you're saying the guard isn't neutral because it has no "advantage" over the person on top? Right that's why it's not a dominant position like side control, mount, back control.

Guard top is NOT a dominant position. Both fighters have options of control and ways to end the fight. That is why guard is neutral.

Your talk of MMA fighters on bottom getting the worse of things is nonsense. Using MMA fighters who don't have good MMA guards as an example is obviously flawed. There are plenty of examples of MMA fighters on the bottom controlling, doing more damage, or finishing the opponent on top from that position.

Guard is a neutral position period.

Tell me how exactly was Javi dominant from guard top in this round:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1NzHlwzkg

Again was the top man in a dominant position in this fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbOBeiiEY50

How about in this fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bfq0NtPvpI



2/6/13 2:46 PM
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Herbish1
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EddieBravo - Deep half, rubber guard, butterfly guard, lockdown half system IMO Phone Post
I agree with all except deep half. How do you prevent getting pummeled from there? Phone Post
2/6/13 3:17 PM
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Michael Piekarski
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I'm curious about Eddie's thoughts on spiral guard.  I watched a video where he and Shawn Williams compared their guard styles and he talked about a situation where Matt Horwich couldn't play closed guard because his opponent just stood in his guard. He mentioned using spiral in that case.  I'm curious because I was in a similar situation in a fight and didn't have a good answer.

2/6/13 3:34 PM
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Shemhazai
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I suspect that the spiral guard can be used very well in MMA if played aggressively. Always control the distance with the outside foot, attack relentlessly with the tripod variation and knee-twist sweep if the guy stands tall, spin underneath if he comes forward, kick away and come up on the single whenever he turns his knee to stop the spin-under or takes weight off the entangled leg, transition to tornado and control his posture (à la Marcin Held) if he tries to pass low ...

Obviously, you are not immune to strikes from there, but if you keep moving and attacking, I think the top guy has to be very cautious.
2/6/13 4:27 PM
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Ryan Thatcher
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Held and Imanari are good examples of how to use spiral in MMA. Leg entanglements to sweeps and leg locks.
2/6/13 6:00 PM
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Mighty Cthulhu
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Part of the problem is that very few guys train enough advanced nogi guard games.

Butterfly is my favorite guard, and the best guard for MMA I feel. But how many guys have powerhouse butterfly guards? Very rare. It's really only the elite ADCC guys where you see strong butterfly guards. Roughly estimating, only 10% of BJJ blackbelts even have very strong nogi butterfly guards (most specialize in other guards), and among purple belts, the number of powerful butterfly players is pretty negligible.

Every BJJ guy works closed guard, so that tends to be the default nogi option. Advanced modern half guards and advanced butterfly guards, there are just too few guys in MMA who even have that game in their arsenal. So I think that is a major reason why we just see endless futile closed guard players.
2/6/13 7:10 PM
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Calibur1980
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Herbish1 -
EddieBravo - Deep half, rubber guard, butterfly guard, lockdown half system IMO Phone Post
I agree with all except deep half. How do you prevent getting pummeled from there? Phone Post
I think Sport BJJ players give the wrong impression of deep half. They kind of just pull it and chill.

In mma when it's used it's a quick fluid sweep. If the guy attempts to punch you in the face he will face plant himself because his base is so compromised.

If the top guy connects at all it would only be one lame shot. I think we will see more deep half in the future, it might just be unrecognizable unless watching it in slow mo. Phone Post
2/6/13 11:46 PM
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RoidsGracie
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triso - 
HoldYerGround - It is a delusional pipe dream that guard is neutral in MMA.

Just because you "can" do something (can attack submissions in this case) doesn't mean you're in a position that is desirable or advantageous. What we're looking for is an ADVANTAGE over your opponent. As has been shown time and time again, the bottom guard position is not where you want to be! Ask 50 BJJ black belts and 50 top MMA fighters if they would rather play top or bottom in guard and I bet all 100 answer "top".

You can bring up all the concepts and principles of the position, that one player "can" do such and such, the top player can use his weight, etc. it makes no difference. If you watch any MMA at all you'll notice that the bottom player gets the worse end of things more often than not, and that observation is the only one that counts.

You know, for a martial art that is supposed to be unforgivingly based on reality, there is still a lot of dogma going around.

So you're saying the guard isn't neutral because it has no "advantage" over the person on top? Right that's why it's not a dominant position like side control, mount, back control.

Guard top is NOT a dominant position. Both fighters have options of control and ways to end the fight. That is why guard is neutral.

Your talk of MMA fighters on bottom getting the worse of things is nonsense. Using MMA fighters who don't have good MMA guards as an example is obviously flawed. There are plenty of examples of MMA fighters on the bottom controlling, doing more damage, or finishing the opponent on top from that position.

Guard is a neutral position period.

Tell me how exactly was Javi dominant from guard top in this round:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1NzHlwzkg

Again was the top man in a dominant position in this fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbOBeiiEY50

How about in this fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bfq0NtPvpI




Then why do you constantly see high level BJJ guys get controlled in MMA when they get taken down and are forced to play guard? And many times the guys beating these BJJ guys don't have anywhere near the same amount of submission grappling skills that that the BJJ guy does. Any time there's such a big difference in grappling skill where the guy on bottom can tool the guy on top, I'm willing to bet the bottom guy could tool the other guy even worse if he was on top instead.
2/6/13 11:54 PM
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MickColins
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Time limits and rules killed the closed guard in modern MMA. Allow 12-6 elbows from closed guard and it could see some resurgence.

2/7/13 9:40 PM
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HoldYerGround
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I believe 12-6 elbow refers to strikes where the point of the elbow goes directly from the ceiling to the floor a la jones-hamil. I believe this rule is irrelevant concerning the closed guard. Can anyone think of a time the bottom player has been penalized for elbows? Phone Post
2/7/13 9:46 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Lol triso, you have to read your own posts. Don't you realize when you say things like "closed guard is neutral, PERIOD!" (Or whatever) that you expose your argument as emotional and dogmatic rather than logical and rational?

You posted some videos of players winning from bottom guard. You've proved nothing relevant to the conversation. No one is saying that its impossible to win from the bottom. Shit, you can win from under mount by heel hooking your opponent! That doesn't mean that the position is evenly matched.

I asked a question before, I'll ask it again. You've got 50 bjj black belts and 50 top mma fighters. You ask this population if they would prefer guard top or bottom in mma. What do you think they answer? Phone Post
2/7/13 9:48 PM
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HoldYerGround
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And concerning deep half it looks like the position has been very useful in mma. Shogun, nog, and belcher have used it with success. Are there videos of deep half sweep attempts of the bottom player getting rocked? Phone Post
2/8/13 3:07 AM
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Shemhazai
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HoldYerGround -  And concerning deep half it looks like the position has been very useful in mma. Shogun, nog, and belcher have used it with success. Are there videos of deep half sweep attempts of the bottom player getting rocked? Phone Post

Bigfoot took some serious punishment from Cain's elbows as he went for deep half, but other than that, I don't think there are a lot of cases of people getting beat up in that position.
2/8/13 7:24 AM
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LEMon
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Ttt Phone Post
2/8/13 9:50 AM
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triso
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HoldYerGround -  Lol triso, you have to read your own posts. Don't you realize when you say things like "closed guard is neutral, PERIOD!" (Or whatever) that you expose your argument as emotional and dogmatic rather than logical and rational?

You posted some videos of players winning from bottom guard. You've proved nothing relevant to the conversation. No one is saying that its impossible to win from the bottom. Shit, you can win from under mount by heel hooking your opponent! That doesn't mean that the position is evenly matched.

I asked a question before, I'll ask it again. You've got 50 bjj black belts and 50 top mma fighters. You ask this population if they would prefer guard top or bottom in mma. What do you think they answer? Phone Post

I'm not emotional because I'm saying you're wrong. Closed guard is neutral. You have yet to provide any solid reasoning as to why it isn't.

When you are in mount, side control, or back control (top) ... are you in much danger of being submitted or struck? How about guard top?

Are you willing to say guard top is a dominant position? If so, you are saying you have complete control over the bottom man and are in little to no danger from that position.

I provided you videos of MMA fighters willingly putting themselves on their back in guard and then controlling/finishing the fight from that position.

Does any MMA fighter willingly put themselves in side control, mount, or back control?
2/8/13 10:46 AM
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Triple_B
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I personally believe half guard is best for MMA. You can easily create distance and get wrist control using a knee shield, you can stand up more easily than other guards, still difficult for top guy to disengage since your legs are hooking his leg, and you can transition to takedowns easily if you have a wrestling skill set to work with.
2/8/13 2:49 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Triso you're creating a false dichotomy. It appears that you assign simplistic binary values to positions: either they are completely dominant or neutral. I'm not petitioning that guard bottom is either.

My point is that, in mma, guard top > guard bottom. Phone Post
2/8/13 3:33 PM
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jammer1
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Can't believe there is even a debate over guard top being dominant over bottom in MMA. MMA is NOT sport BJJ! There aren't grips to make it a neutral position when strikes are involved. Yes, you can win from guard but not often enough to be a neutral position.

If two guys do absolutely nothing from the guard, the guy on top wins every time simply because he has greater control of the fight.
2/8/13 4:09 PM
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MickColins
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HoldYerGround - I believe 12-6 elbow refers to strikes where the point of the elbow goes directly from the ceiling to the floor a la jones-hamil. I believe this rule is irrelevant concerning the closed guard. Can anyone think of a time the bottom player has been penalized for elbows? Phone Post
Look how many dudes plop their heads down on your stomach/chest in modern MMA in closed guard. In old school videos, guys did that and dudes like Rickson would elbow your coconut. You don't see guys throwing downward elbows at their heads because its not allowed. Phone Post
2/8/13 4:15 PM
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triso
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HoldYerGround -  Triso you're creating a false dichotomy. It appears that you assign simplistic binary values to positions: either they are completely dominant or neutral. I'm not petitioning that guard bottom is either.

My point is that, in mma, guard top > guard bottom. Phone Post

So basically you ignored and refused to answer every question I posted and then said your opinion again.

I see no response from you that shows reasoning.

Is guard top a dominant position? You won't answer this because you know the answer.
2/8/13 4:16 PM
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triso
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MickColins - 
HoldYerGround - I believe 12-6 elbow refers to strikes where the point of the elbow goes directly from the ceiling to the floor a la jones-hamil. I believe this rule is irrelevant concerning the closed guard. Can anyone think of a time the bottom player has been penalized for elbows? Phone Post
Look how many dudes plop their heads down on your stomach/chest in modern MMA in closed guard. In old school videos, guys did that and dudes like Rickson would elbow your coconut. You don't see guys throwing downward elbows at their heads because its not allowed. Phone Post

Absolutely agree. This and upkicks to a "downed" opponent.
2/8/13 4:40 PM
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Ryan Thatcher
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Edited: 02/08/13 5:19 PM
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IMO, upkicks to a downed opponent would add a great weapon to the guard. The kick Anderson used against Okami in their first fight is a good example. GnP would be limited. Fighters would have to position really low and risk being subbed or elbowed; stand up giving space; or actively try to pass.
2/8/13 5:51 PM
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Michael Piekarski
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The reason why the guard is not a neutral position for the guy on the bottom is because generally you have to be a lot better than your opponent to make it work effectively.  It is A LOT easier for the guy on top to deal damage/score points then it is for the guy on the bottom.  Think of it like a video game, the guy on top can strike and hit and the life meter for the guy on the bottom goes down.  Yes the bottom guy can get a submission and win the whole thing but if the submission fails he did no damage.

I'm much better on the bottom in sport jiu jitsu but in MMA I'd rather be on top.  I think like 80% of my sport jiu jitsu competition wins were from my guard but all my wins in MMA were due to a submission from the top or striking from inside the guard of my opponent.

2/8/13 6:57 PM
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RoidsGracie
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^ That's the exact point I made and I'm in total agreement. A guy who is a less skilled submission grappler can beat someone who is a better submission grappler if he has good wrestling skills and can put the better guy on his back. The reverse is not true. If the less skilled guy gets put on his back then he's screwed most likely. In the case both guys are equal in skill then I would still say that the top guy has a slight advantage simply because he can strike better.

If guard was really a neutral position then it would mean there is no difference in whether you are in top or bottom guard. If that's the case then why bother learning takedowns at all? It's much easier to clinch up with someone and then pull guard then to work for a takedown. And also if there really is no advantage to being on top then there should also be no points given for taking someone down in a BJJ or no gi match since by that logic the guy who gets the takedown isn't controlling the guy or getting any closer to winning.

It's a lot easier to learn how to defend submissions from the guard then to do attack with the same submissions from guard.
2/8/13 7:40 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Lol triso of course I didn't answer your questions because they are not only irrelevant to my point but are loaded questions which, as I've said, support an oversimplified categorization of positions.

Is the guard top dominant? Well then we'd have to argue semantics over what exactly the word "dominant" means and by what rubric we would measure positions to categorize them as such.

I'm going to choose to skip that bullshit because frankly I can think of a much more clear and direct way to describe what I'm getting at: that guard top is better than guard bottom in (the current rules of) mma.

P.S. if you want to speculate that guard would be better if such and such rule were abolished, that's fine, but it's irrelevant. Phone Post

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